is justice really fair for all, how do we get it & what would you do - legal sos!

[donein]

Hi Guys

 

Firstly may I say I find this (& other) forums absolutely fantastic and it's a great platform for thrashing out / learning / research and help

 

It's great to converse with like minded people.

 

But there is just one problem ....and from the people I have spoken to, I am not the only one.

 

Let me explain.

 

We have a scary, unnerving and stressful legal issue, a lender is taking us to court for one reason or another such as our home is being repossessed or a debt we have not paid. So we come on to the forum, get tons of great help and advice and work out that we are right and they are wrong. But that court looms and we are not so confident in person. In fact, I would add that if we were not fighting for ourselves we would do a better a job as in that instance we can distance ourselves emotionially.

 

In essence, I think it is fair to say by the time we get into that court room we may at times, lose confidence, doubt what we have learnt and doubt our position. We don't fight as hard as the opposing solicitor and barrister and why would we? Perhaps the nerves get the better of us and we don't articulate well enough, so we lose the case when we should have won. We are just normal, everyday people with no legal training, no court room experience and it's like an exam we fail or we pass. Some of us do good and some of us don't do ourselves justice.

 

Let's face it in an ideal world, we would not need this forum because we would just instruct a solicitor/barrister irrespective of cost and leave it up to the experts. But in reality, we need these forums because we can't afford expert legal help.

 

Yes it is rewarding when we succeed and we should not give up. I believe we are all too much subdued when it comes to negotiating with the opposition. I believe we should take each case on its own merits and they cannot be treated as 'blanket' cases with a one size fits all approach. I think in our grasp for help and justice we have at times taken the wrong approach and tried to argue our cases in court using the one size fits all approach without the legal nouse to argue it upon further scrutiny or articulate the poiint well enough to the judge. We accept the outcome, wrong or right and at times kick ourselves for not being better

 

So where am I going with all this. Quite simply I want the next level platform to be available to all that need it.

 

The next level platform, is in a nutshell the expert legal representation at the hearing. We have this already using the direct access barrister route but how many of us can afford that? I couldn't. I expected the barrister would cost me approx £400 - £1000 for attending my hearing. I was wrong. He wanted £800 just to look through the paperwork so far before he would decide if we would take the case. To attend the hearing was additional costs. I was gutted and represented myself. I lost but I firmly believe the outcome would have been different had I legal representation. I was made bankrupt but appealed successfully so the Judge annulled it. I had to borrow money from friends and family to pay the legal costs. It was a horrendous time.

 

My friends bought a property in Florida. They got into financial trouble and a legal company is pursuing them for over £80k in the UK courts. From everything we have learnt they are in the wrong. But my friends are almost paralysed with fear. They cannot afford legal representation and despite having legal cover on their home insurance they are not covered.

 

Another friend was about to lose her car through non payment even though it was the lender who refused accepting payments. She represented herself. Won but now fighting them again becuase the lenders amazing are brazen and use unbelievable dirty tricks and lie. She has been to court twice and despite winning is out of her depth. having representation at the hearing would take the pressure off.

 

I could go on and on with cases that I know have been won and lost, but the one thing they all have in common is that they would have preferred legal representation whom are experienced at trial using the correct 'legal language' and at a level the Judge respects and listens to.

 

So, I have started a non-profit organisation to raise funds to pay for that specialist, qualified legal expert representation to attend the hearings on our behalf.

 

I have gone non-profit as opposed to charity as it is quicker to get off the ground. TO be a registered charity we need a minimum of £5k to get going. But regardless, the status may change. I obviously need as much help in this as I can get from donations, to people giving their time, fundraising and awareness. I will not be drawing a salary but giving my time and anything I can to get help to anyone who needs it. PLease don't let me do this on my own.

 

So far, I have been donated mini some teddy bears, silver plated picture frames & travel alarm clocks to sell to raise funds.

 

I also am in the process of putting together a monthly legal newsletter that will update you on legal case, contain a real life in depth case study - a valuable source of ammunition, help and a fantastic learning aid, the first case study involves a nationwide credit card with a legal battle that went on for over 3 years. It highlights the claimants behaviour and to find out the outcome you will need to become a member. A fantastic tool for all of us to learn from & compare notes This newsletter will be distributed to our members ony. Club membership costs £3.00 per month

 

Membership will cost £3.00 per month.

Teddies cost £2.00

Teddy key chains cost £3.00

Picture frames cost £10.00

Travel clocks cost £5.00

 

Every single penny counts.

 

Donations gratefully received. Please help me with this crusade.

 

My initial target is to raise £6,000 which will determine the ongoing status, part pay for the next printing of the second months newsletter and more importantly pay for at at least 2 cases.

 

I intend on doing as much fundraising as I can and would welcome any suggestions.

 

I have already set up banking, merchant services for taking payments. Have raised enough money for a website to be created to get the message out there.

 

So please, how can you help me? Apart from money, I also need to hear from people who need this service.

 

I welcome your thoughts as always, I implore you to join the 'club' and sign up for membership costing just £3.00 per month.

 

I also need anyone prepared to give up a little of their time to assist me in this project.

 

Please pm for details. I will continue to udate this thread.

 

Thanks for reading.

[donein]

May I also add, I would really appreciate feedback

 

And I would love suggestions for a more apt name !

[asokn]

So would this essentially be a communal pot of money to pay a solicitor or barrister to attend hearings or would the expert legal representation be in another form?

 

How would you choose which cases benefited from the representation, assuming there will not be enough in the pot to pay for representation in every case?

 

How would your charity interact with,, say, the bar pro Bono unit or FRU?

 

I hope my post doesn't come across as critical as I am just hoping to learn a bit more!

[donein]

So would this essentially be a communal pot of money to pay a solicitor or barrister to attend hearings or would the expert legal representation be in another form?

 

How would you choose which cases benefited from the representation, assuming there will not be enough in the pot to pay for representation in every case?

 

How would your charity interact with,, say, the bar pro Bono unit or FRU?

 

I hope my post doesn't come across as critical as I am just hoping to learn a bit more!

 

Hi thank you for taking the time to comment - much appreciated!

Yes the whole idea is that there will be a pool of money to pay for legal representation at the hearing in the form of a barrister or solicitor.

AS for the interaction with the Pro Bono unit - honestly do you really think they would represent us ? No it seems from what I have read they direct their funds to other types of cases.

I have no idea what FRU stands for.

I appreciate it will take a while to build u a fighting fund but I believe if we all pull together we can do it.

As for determining cases - for that I need a panel of volunteers to assess. Clearly I want to help everyone but this is not possible but at least we can help support some which is better than nothing for a start!

Simply put I cannot do this alone. How many threads have you read where the OP states if only I could have a solicitor at the hearing?

 

[assisted blonde]

I can see what you are trying to do but my worry is that it will only assist a few people with legal representation as Solicitors even at the low end charge at least £80.00 per hour and Barristers considerably more. D

o you have Solicitors on board who are prepared to work on cases that you take on? and if so are they specialists in certain fields or just general high street solicitors.

What type of cases would you be looking at to represent?

FRU is the Free Representation Unit their details are on the internet but they deal with a number of issues providing help and advice through a system of legally qualified volunteers. I think the minimum requirement is to have completed your LLB or at least be a 3rd year student.

[Guest]

80£/hr! for private work. that's cheap? or is that poss a trainee sols rate?

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ford

[asokn]

One of the issues that makes me somewhat apprehensive is the economics of it. On the assumption, as seems to be suggested, that the fund will pay for a lawyer at the market rate then I would not expect many people to actually benefit and therefore I would anticipate membership tailing off.

 

For example, I would suggest a very conservative cost of £200 for a solicitor to attend a fast track trial listed for one day. That equates to approximately 67 monthly payments of £3.00. So, for every 67 people that pay in 1 will benefit from the scheme each month. That is before part of the £3.00 is used for running costs.

 

Using the OP's figures, if one assumes that a public access barrister is no less than £800 that equates to 267 monthly payments.

 

When one factors in that the vast majority of the cases dealt with on this forum can broadly be considered as 'debt recovery', with very few if any raising a novel point or a point of public interest, I would be concerned that the fund would amount to little more than a lottery played by those with very little disposable income with no real way of selecting 'deserving' cases.

 

The idea really *does* appeal to me but I wonder if the OP could give more information of actual costs and how the panel of volunteers would go about selecting cases. Would criteria be given? Would they be expected to weigh up the merits of the case and allocate the resources based on the chance of success? If so, would a layman be of any use on the panel?

 

Also, has the OP considered cheaper options for representation such as advocacy agencies and the like? That may give a good cost/benefit return.

[Ganymede]

80£/hr! for private work. that's cheap? or is that poss a trainee sols rate?

 

 

Outside of London a trainee solicitor/paralegal etc, at grade D, has a charge out rate of £118 per hour.

[assisted blonde]

I was basing my figures on my local solicitor but to be fair I havent used him for a few years, he is a country solicitor and a friend, so I may have been a bit out on £80.00 per hour, and I did say at least!!

[asokn]

I'm bumping this back up in the hope that the OP was serious about this idea and not just wasting everyone's time.

[brokebutnotbeatn]

I think it sounds grand in principle - even if only one person was helped then it would be worth it. But the problem I see is containment. Judgements can be overturned on appeal...so perhaps where people have gone in as a LIP with well researched and well prepared defenses but lost because of a judge lottery situation the fund could be used to get legal representation for an appeal? Or used to cover costs of Mackensie Friend; people this forum (site team) knows who have experience and can advise a LIP and help the nervous first timer through the process?

[asokn]

I think there already are 'professional' McKenzie friends who charge a fee so that could be worth looking at. As for representation on an appeal, I think that produces it's own problem because I assume that the initial intention of the fund was to help defendants who are responding to a claim, if a defendant then loses and wants to appeal I think it would be hard without having qualified assessors to root out the worthy appeals from the bad losers. It would be a shame if a proportion of the money raised was spent on hopeless appeals, particularly as appeals cost more than first instance hearings.

 

I actually think a blanket 'no appeals' rule would be better as it would make the terms of the fund clear and would ensure that people get a fair share of the resources.

Edited April 11, 2012 by asokn

[brokebutnotbeatn]

I think some cases are well prepared and fought hard but a wayward judge rules against - these are the appeals I was referring to and a discerning panel could route out these IMHO?

[asokn]

I agree entirely. The only problem I think is that, if one starts funding appeals, the panel would really need to be legally trained rather than well intentioned layman. You then have to find people with the right qualifications who are prepared to work for free or you spend some of the precious fund money on paying the panel.

 

This is increasingly seeming like a moot point though as the OP has not taken further part in this thread, a shame.

[Ganymede]

I think some cases are well prepared and fought hard but a wayward judge rules against - these are the appeals I was referring to and a discerning panel could route out these IMHO?

 

 

If you have people on the panel advising on the merits of an appeal who is going to pay for the extortionate PII?

[brokebutnotbeatn]

not sure i agree; sometimes the panel would get it wrong of course. but isn't this the point of the original idea? I was suggesting legal costs be spent further up the line, that's all. but I haven't given it a huge amount of thought - was just kicking an idea around!

[Ganymede]

not sure i agree; sometimes the panel would get it wrong of course. but isn't this the point of the original idea? I was suggesting legal costs be spent further up the line, that's all. but I haven't given it a huge amount of thought - was just kicking an idea around!

 

 

If you are giving legal advice you would need to have PII.

[brokebutnotbeatn]

but the panel wouldn't be giving legal advice just deciding who to fund to get legal advice...

[Ganymede]

but the panel wouldn't be giving legal advice just deciding who to fund to get legal advice...

 

 

I see. So the panel would say to Mr Smith "you can have 10 grand to appeal now run along and find a solicitor who will advise you and take your case on"?

[asokn]

Yes, the logistics of it would be rather tricky. I assume there would need to be some sort of referral system whereby the panel would tell Mr. Smith that they have paid £x to whatever solicitors firm is willing to help and the money should cover the costs of the appeal. Clearly though, as you say, it would be rife with opportunities to take the money and run. I imagine some would consider it altogether easier, and probably cheaper, to just use the fund to pay off the actual debt!

[assisted blonde]

I have been thinking about this since the original post and although I am a firm believer that legal representation should be affordable and availible to anyone on a lower or restricted income I just cannot see this scheme working. it would require 1,000's of people subscribing £3.00 per month to have even a remote chance of enough funds being availible to help even a few people, and there will be those that for whatever reason are not chosen by the panel to recieve help, yet they may be in a worse situation than those that are chosen, who are we to judge who can and who cannot get the help they need.

 

I believe that the only cases that would be accepted are those that have some chance of creating a precedent in which case only the most high profile/difficult cases that raise an interesting and arguable point of law will be chosen, as anything else would not be of any real long term assistance in terms of decisions etc.

 

I would also think that type of thing would appeal to prehaps the poorest members of society as they would hope that if they needed it someone would be there to help them, these are the people that if the situation arises would not be able to afford legal representation but at the same time would not have a case of sufficient interest to be chosen as one of the lucky few under this scheme.

 

In summary I applaud the sentiment but, cannot see any possibility of it working in practice even if the subscription were £10.00 per month and even though I wouldnt miss £3.00 per month, I will not be joining.

 

The OP obviously wants to do something and I hope that he continues to give the matter some thought and maybe come up with (in my opinion) something a little more viable.

[brokebutnotbeatn]

As you say, fraught with logistical difficulties.

[impecunious]

What you need is someone to gather intelligence, do prospect research and make applications for funding to charitable trusts and foundations once you're all set up properly. Clearly, membership alone won't give you the funds you need

 

That sounds awfully like my day-time job!!

 

Impecunious!