Ealing Council Tax / Newlyn dispute

[Scoodle]

Hi all, I'll be as succinct as possible but would appreciate some opinions on this.

 

Last year, I fell behind with council tax payments by a few months due to sporadic earnings whilst self employed. A court liability order was obtained in September 2011 and I made a substantial payment in December 2011 directly to the council, via their website.

 

Now I have Newlyn chasing me for a debt that I believe is incorrect, but the problem seems to stem from the court liability order rather than from them. Perhaps some of you could have a look at the timeline below and let me know your thoughts.

 

September 2011 - Court liability order is granted for £853, covering council tax due to 31st March 2012. Is it even legal to pursue someone for council tax that is not owed yet!? How can a liability order be granted when it is possible I might vacate the property before then?

 

In this time I received pre-bailiff warning letters from Ealing Council but never received any correspondence at all from Newlyn or any other debt collector.

 

December 2011 - On 24th December I made payment via Ealing Council's website for just over £675 - more than enough to effectively bring payments up to date to the end of December 2011.

 

I didn't hear anything more from the council or from any debt collector until a Newlyn bailiff turned up at my property on 8th March demanding £1086.50 - no details at all of how they had arrived at this sum. This visit to my property is the first contact Newlyn ever made with me. The bailiff was, surprisingly, a fairly pleasant chap really and when I explained that I'd made payment in December he told me to contact Ealing Council and get them to confirm the payment to Newlyn.

 

This took several days due to Ealing only having an automated service, but I was finally contacted by Ealing Council and they confirmed the payment that had been made online and promised to send this information to Newlyn.

 

Yesterday, I received a letter from Newlyn, through the post this time, another 'Notice Prior To Removal Of Goods' threatening a visit on Saturday 24th March, asking for the sum of £237.50.

 

Now, clearly, a lot of their charges have been dropped since the £1086.50 they were demanding, but again there are NO details of how they have arrived at this sum.

 

On the same day, I received my schedule of payments for 2012/13 council tax payments from Ealing Council. On here, it specifies that my 2011/12 balance is £194.40.

 

Should I just pay the £194.40 to Ealing Council and ask them to contact Newlyn to confirm this payment? I don't see why I should pay charges to Newlyn relating to council tax that is, currently, only ONE MONTH overdue.

 

Thoughts?

[i hate bailiffs]

pay it direct to council

 

There will be bailiff fees £24.50 first visit and £18.00 second visit where no levy has been made so pay that to council as well

 

Do not allow bailiffs to levy on anything,if you have a car move it away,do not let the in your house

 

windows and doors secure till it gets sorted

 

never sigh anything from a bailiff

 

They are not able to force there way in unless they have previous peaceful entry

[Scoodle]

Thanks, but I'm not so concerned about how to the deal with the bailiff - I'm not intimidated by them at all. The main thing I'm interested in is the liability order in September 2011 being granted for council tax not due for 5 months!

[i hate bailiffs]

Thanks, but I'm not so concerned about how to the deal with the bailiff - I'm not intimidated by them at all. The main thing I'm interested in is the liability order in September 2011 being granted for council tax not due for 5 months!

 

That is what the council do as we are about to start tax year 2012-2013 they are correct in what they have done

[tomtubby]

Scoodle,

 

Firstly, with regards to the balance, unless the bailiff can provide evidence that a levy had benn made on goods, then the correct balance ( as far as I can see would be £220.50 and this would allow for 2 attending to levy visits.

 

On the very interesting point that you have made regarding the council obtaining a Liability Order for the whole year etc etc, please be assured that this is a subject that has interested me for a very long time indeed and one day ( when I have more time available) I would love to be able to look into this further but I sorry to say that it would really need a test case to be taken to the European Courts etc to get a ruling on.

 

The council will rely upon the fact that the council tax payer is billed once yearly. The exact same thing happens with TV licences and last year, 160,000 people were prosecuted for using a TV without a valid licence. Many of these people would have been convicted for FUTURE use of their TV !!!! Again, the TV Licensing authority would be relying on the fact that they also charge a yearly licence fee......

 

As I have said above, an EXCELLENT point has been raised by you.

[Rocco17]

Yes, pay the 194.40 directly to the council and get a receipt of some kind if you can. You will then have an official document stating what you owe and another one stating what you have paid. If those amounts match up then there is no debt to chase.

 

The court liability order was issued correctly, as strictly speaking the money is owed at the start of the year and the monthly arrangements are down to the council, they are not a 'right' as such. Councils are very quick to remove the option to pay by instalments if you miss a couple of them (although they will tend to restore it)

[ploddertom]

Council Tax is due to be paid each year on 1st April. As a dispensation you are allowed to pay this in instalments. Failiure to pay results in the action the Council have taken against you and unfortunately they are allowed to charge you for the whole amount outstanding - not just the sum that would bring it up to date. For this privilege the Council will also have added extra costs on - up to £150.

 

Having paid what you felt was correct in December did not discharge the Liability as there was a remainder still to pay. The Council have then passed this to the Bailiffs to collect which is how you find yourself now. You need to contact the Council and ask them how much is still outstanding, add to this the bailiffs fees for 1st & 2nd Visits = £42-50 - and this is what you need to pay. You must be aware that Bailiff fees are paid before any monies are taken for the debt outstanding, therefore if you fail to pay the £42-50 then the Bailiff may still attend and enforce for this sum.

 

You should also ask the Bailiffs for a breakdown of the fees they have charged just to make sure they are not trying it on.

 

PT

[Scoodle]

That's cool - thanks for the info guys.

 

I hadn't considered that the council tax is due yearly rather than in installments. Seems pretty irresponsible of the council to chase people who are clearly having difficulties in paying for more than they would be paying monthly, but I guess it's irresponsible of me to have fallen behind so it works both ways.

 

Anyway, thanks for the clarification! Much appreciated.

[Rocco17]

That's cool - thanks for the info guys.

 

I hadn't considered that the council tax is due yearly rather than in installments. Seems pretty irresponsible of the council to chase people who are clearly having difficulties in paying for more than they would be paying monthly, but I guess it's irresponsible of me to have fallen behind so it works both ways.

 

Anyway, thanks for the clarification! Much appreciated.

 

Yeah it does, but overdue accounts just go through a process generally, and getting the liability order is just part of that process as it allows them to take further action if they need to.

 

It does seem harsh but most councils will still enter into a payment plan even after they have said you have 'lost the right' to pay by instalments.

 

The borough council that collects the council tax often gets very little of it, so to a certain extent they don't have a lot of say in terms of the collection process.

[scouse45]

Presumably the add-on costs are "Court Costs", which is a euphemism for "fine". Try asking for a receipt from the Court to substantiate it (it's the word COST rather than CHARGE). Most local Councils ring around neighbouring or similar councils to see what they are charging so it's basically a cartel setting a fine. I made a FOIA request of my local council for the number of distress warrants granted in one day of council-tax default hearings - it amounted to around £350k!

No wonder the Court Cost my father's overdue account (of ten pence) was cancelled by our local council (my mother's death earlier that year had forced an adjustment to his bill which he overlooked) until he got the Distress Notice in the post. This was some years ago, but the £35.00 "Costs" was cancelled when I pointed out the ratio of overdue sum and cost of summons and asked for the Court Receipt.

[wonkeydonkey]

In your case the bailiff handed you the letter in person but failed to identify himself and failed to discuss the debt....the fee charged does not apply to him having attended to collect the debt, therefore it can be argued the 'visit' had no objective, other than to garner fees for the bailiff?

 

WD

[scouse45]

If the bailiff has tried to "up" the costs unethically like this, complain to the Court issuing their Certificate.

In another dispute I had with a bailiff almost 30 years ago I was visited late evening by a "lady" who said she was from the council "about the Rates". I refused to let her in, whereupon the smug smile vanished and she demanded £38 arrears (apparently I'd overlooked part of a payment I had disputed) and about £65 costs. I told her to go away, so she levied on my company car, any furniture she could see through the window and some she imagined and handed me a document showing she was a bailiff. Replacement value around £10k.

Council refused to call the warrant back and said I had to pay in full. On attendance at their office a young guy was in tears, having turned up every penny he could and was 61pence short and was told the van would be there in the morning (20 miles away) unless he could pay the balance within the next couple of hours. I paid it for him, and he and many others stood open-mouthed as I paid my dues and demanded to know - here and now - why there was no nameplate outside, no certificate of Employers Liability Insurance certificate in their principal (as they admitted to me) place of business. I then demanded to know which County Court issued the certificates for the company's principals and the offending bailiff.

I complained to the County Court which issued her Bailiff Certificate and was inundated by statements, affidavits and all sorts from her colleagues and their solicitors, all hand-delivered, and eventually I attended - with my witness (whose 61p I'd paid) and a letter from companies House about the "offences" to be greeted by a retinue of over 20 staff and bailiffs with their solicitors from a big firm in Manchester plus a Barrister. I stuck to my guns until they agreed to refuse any future instructions relating to me, move the witch from my town, accept that she was wrong and intimidatory to levy as much as she did, and to pay their own costs. I also pointed out to them that even if we went to trial, and they won, that I would appeal on the grounds that their representation amounted to intimidation and overkill, and in the event of an appeal being heard they might expect numerous members of the Press to be well-briefed beforehand and present at trial - and even if I lost at appeal they wouldn't be the first to win a case and never see their money! They blinked.

Be prepared to be intimidated if you do fight them.

Another solution ..... same year, multiple raids on a "sink" estate a few miles away resulted in about eight heavies (bailiffs) being hospitalised when about 15 big locals with baseball bats and pick-axe handle greeted them and burned two vans and a minibus. They were expected, arrived on time and old cars blocked off the road at each end. It was over in a couple of minutes. There were no witnesses! DO NOT TRY THIS!