Arrow Global/BC claim received today - help please

[poundhound1808]

Hello,

 

Could do with a bit of knowledgeable advice - apologies in advance for the mammoth post.

 

Claim form received today from BC on behalf of Arrow Global, POC as follows:

 

 

"The claimant's claim is for the balance due under an agreement which is now all due and payable.

 

The defendant agreed to pay monthly instalments under account number xxxx but has failed to do so.

And the claimant claims the sum of £xxxxx.xx

 

The claimant also claims interest thereon pursuant to S.69 County Court Act 1984 limited to one year to the date hereof at the rate of 8% per annum amounting to 0.00"

 

 

It's a 2005 Egg CC (only know because I remember the last digits of the card), I think I've had something from AG not that long ago to say "we now own the account" but have to try and dig it out. DN and Termination Notice sent by Egg yonks ago (again, buried in huge box of similar letters but I've never binned anything, incl. envelopes) and both looked ok then (poss DN problem due to arrears amount being too high). I never agreed with anybody to pay "monthly instalments" but maybe they mean the regular CC payments when the card was still active? Amount in POC is the 5 digits I put in above, i.e. just over £10K.

 

Having read some of the threads in this section, it would appear that BC are a particularly underhand bunch, and issue claims willy-nilly, without being able to produce the correct paperwork once challenged. Therefore:

 

If I wanted to defend this claim, next steps would be a) AoS, and b) CPR 31.14 request (including request to extend for an extra 28 days as per CPR 31.15) - as I understand it, you can only ask for documents mentioned in the POC so what would these items be in my case? I can only see one - the agreement, i.e. is that all I can request? And how on earth can they expect to present a case based on an "agreement" alone?? What about DN, TN and NoA? Or is this an indication that they are likely to withdraw once they realise you're going to defend, as they have sod all paperwork?

 

So far so good - now comes the big spanner in the works. I will be leaving the country permanently in 4 weeks' time, and have no intention to ever return to the UK to live (moving to EU country where I am from). Add to that, I've had another claim only a couple of weeks ago, which I have decided not to defend but to let go to default CCJ then see how they're going to try and enforce - risky maybe but I've thought it through and made my decision. Nothing other than threat-o-grams in 3 years then two whoppers in 2 weeks - not sure whether to laugh or cry.

 

How far into the process can you realistically get in 4 weeks? If I'm unable to continue with my defence after that, BC will get default judgment anyway ... Or should I inform the court of this, and ask how to proceed in this scenario? I'd be extremely reluctant to do this as it may involve having to provide my forwarding address (also to BC), and currently I'm of the "over my dead body" opinion.

 

If you've read this far, thank you very much for taking the time, and all input/info/advice is greatfully received!

 

 

ph

 

 

P.S. Just for clarification: the difference between the two claims (in my view) is that the other one is a) a 2009 agreement (loan), b) POC are clear(er) and c) the claimant is the OC (HSBC) i.e. no sleezy debt purchaser involved.

Edited February 24, 2012 by poundhound1808

[citizenB]

This particular forum will attract the same people from the legal issues forums.

 

Your thread is better placed here because of the similarity to the others posting

 

Just having a read of your post to see what best to advise ..

[citizenB]

Ok..

 

The only thing you would be able to request under CPR31.14, from reading that claim is the agreement.

 

Anything else would have to be dealt with by CPR 18.

 

The PoC is typical of Bryan Carter and IMHO he should be prevented from issuing such claims until and unless the paperwork he will be relying on is in his possession.

 

You are I think, already aware of the time scales..

 

Issue date + 5 for service + 14 to acknowledge + 14 to submit defence. (33 days)

 

Once a defence has been submitted a claimant then has 28 days to proceed with the claim else it will be stayed.

 

How does this all fit in with your plans to move out of the UK ? timewise that is.

 

What type of property are you living in at the present.. your own or rented?

 

The reason I ask is that all these companies and in particular those with the two claims against you are communicating at the address you are living at. If rented then whoever moves into the property afterwards is going to be plagued with letters etc !!

 

Have a read round the other threads in this forum as you have recognised already.. most of them are in respect of these two companies and probably EGG accounts as well, so see how they are defending or not as the case might be.

[poundhound1808]

Update:

 

 

Following the excellent guidelines in pt's document legal issues-compilation.pdf , I have done and received the following so far:

 

 

• AoS with intention to defend all - deadline for defence is 25/03/2012 (this is a Sunday so actually 23/03, or 26/03 ?, I'm leaving the UK on the 27/03.
  
• CPR 31.14 request to BC, with a built-in request for an extension for filing the defence under 15.5
  
• reply from BC to this saying that "We confirm that we have requested documentation from our client and hope to revert to you shortly". No mention of my extension request.
  

Today is day 8 after my CPR letter so I phoned BC to chase, and spoke to the file handler. She told me they're under no obligation to disclose this unless directed to by the Court, and asked me why I wanted the documents!! My reply that as far as I understand they have an obligation to provide me with docs under 31.14 so that I can adequately defend was brushed aside with once again, reference to court directions not yet received and a comment that I should refer to my own records as Egg issued agreements around the date of the contract.

 

What the hell is that about? Surely that cannot be right? All the info in pt's document and in many other posts (at least in my view) clearly states that I have a right to the docs before filing a defence - how am I expected to defend without seeing what they base their claim on?

 

I then asked whether they'd agree to an extension. Again, she asked me why I wanted this! My reply was as above, and she stated they won't agree to an extension. I requested that they put this in writing to me, together with a statement why they believe they don't have to comply with my CPR 31.14 request for documents, and was told this would be drafted today.

 

 

What are they playing at? People not being familiar with the procedures (i.e. not knowing that you can apply to the court for compelling disclosure), or not having the £75 for the application, so they get judgment in default?

 

 

Looks like I'll have to do the N244 as soon as I have BC's written confirmation that they refuse to comply (and find £75 which won't be easy - there you have it). The only thing I'm not sure about is the request for an extension. If I do it and the court grants it, I will be out of the country by the time the new deadline is reached. I'm therefore inclined to put BC under pressure and request disclosure by say the 18/03/2012 with an unless order to strike out failing disclosure by that date. In that scenario, they have less time to rumage round their (or Arrow's or Barclay's) cupboards and even if they do come up with the agreement, it would still give me ~7 days to file my defence. Does that sound like a good move? Also, would a CCA request to Arrow be useful/pointless/detrimental at this stage?

 

 

This is all getting pretty stressful now, and I could really do with some knowledgeable input from experienced folks!

 

Many thanks.

 

ph

 

 

P.S. citizenB, to answer your question regarding the property, it's a jointly owned house, my partner will be staying behind for the time being. I wouldn't even have bothered responding to the claim at all if it weren't for the danger of a CCJ by default followed by a Charging Order (Restriction) and possibly an Order for Sale, as there is enough equity for them to try and get their grubby hands on it.

[citizenB]

Is the amount they are claiming above or below - £5,000 ?

 

Strictly speaking a claim in the Small claims court (under £5,000) are rather limited in respect of disclosure - however until Allocation Questionairre time, the claim is trackless - but these companies will deny you access to information unless specifically directed by a Judge.

 

If the deadline for the defence is a Sunday, I think it can be entered on the Monday.. but it might be in your interest, bearing in mind their crappy pleadings to enter a minimal defence requesting that they replead.

 

 

"

 

The claimant's claim is for the balance due under an agreement which is now all due and payable.

 

The defendant agreed to pay monthly instalments under account number xxxx but has failed to do so.

 

And the claimant claims the sum of £xxxxx.xx

 

The claimant also claims interest thereon pursuant to S.69 County Court Act 1984 limited to one year to the date hereof at the rate of 8% per annum amounting to 0.00"

 

Something along the lines of...

 

 

The Defendant takes issue with the Claimants pleadings.

 

 

The Claimants pleaded case is not sufficient for the purposes of CPR 16. The Claimants pleaded case is lacking the most basic facts and detail such as dates of demands made by the Claimant, date of default, date of service of notice of assignment, date of service of default notice and date of agreement, which has alleged to be breached. This information is fundamental to the Claimants case, yet no details are offered or pleaded.

 

The Defendant has requested the above information by way of CPR31.14 and has been advised that the Claimaint will not produce this information unless and until ordered to do so by the court.

 

The Claimant has also refused to agree to an extension in order for them to provide this information.

 

The Defendant is therefore unable to plead in defence to the claim.

 

 

This will ensure they dont obtain a judgment in default .

[citizenB]

Once a defence has been submitted the opposition have 28 days to decide whether to proceed or not.

 

You might find that it will be forwarded to your local court for further action.

 

I guess then all your partner can do then is to return the documents to the court advising that you are not in the country !!

[poundhound1808]

Thanks citizenB for the quick reply. Hidden in long initial post:

 

Amount in POC is the 5 digits I put in above, i.e. just over £10K.

Sounds a good wording for the defence - what about my idea to slap them with an N244 and a tight deadline?

[citizenB]

Thanks citizenB for the quick reply. Hidden in long initial post:

 

Amount in POC is the 5 digits I put in above, i.e. just over £10K.

Sounds a good wording for the defence - what about my idea to slap them with an N244 and a tight deadline?

 

Hmm, then they are obliged to respond to your CPR requests Simples..

 

Yes, if you wish to submit a N244 application - I wonder if you can put both requests on the one.. disclosure and an extension.

 

I will try and find someone who can answer that for you.

[poundhound1808]

pt's document has a template for incorporating both on an N244 so it is possible but as I said, I'm wondering whether tactically it might be better not to ask for an extension and put them under time pressure instead, in the hope they won't be able to comply and I get a strike-out.

[citizenB]

I think you will find that the court will simply allow them the extra time !

 

In the event that you were lucky enough to get a strike out, then they would (for that amount) just apply to have it reversed.

[poundhound1808]

Hmmm, pt's document seems to suggest otherwise ...

 

 

Application for reversal of a strike-out? That is now way above my (limited) knowledge of court procedures. Where can I read up on that?

[DonkeyB]

I think your best options is to retain a legal advisor in the UK to deal with this.

[poundhound1808]

I think your best options is to retain a legal advisor in the UK to deal with this.

 

Sadly, I cannot afford legal representation - if I had spare funds, I might have made BC an offer of payment (either monthly or F&F) when the claim was first issued.

[poundhound1808]

Excerpt from BC letter received today:

 

"We confirm that this matter relates to a simple debt and would most properly [sic] be allocated to the small claims track and so Part 31 of the Civil Procedure Rules does not apply."

 

Again, have they got it totally wrong or have I? I know the claim is as yet unallocated but I thought small claims was for amounts of up to £5K, or is this in reality variable/at the judge's discretion? From what I've read, the probably proper ( ) track for this should be multi track, shouldn't it?

 

Never mind who is right here, N244 it will be then. Couple of questions on dates:

 

 

• I'm still tempted to request that they comply with my CPR request by 18/03/2012 but having read pt's guideline document again, this is probably wishful thinking on my part. The text for the Unless order mentions 14 days from the date the court decides on the application, therefore "N244 submission date + 14/15" sounds more realistic.
  
• As to the new date for filing my defence in case they do comply, am I being reasonable adding 28 days to "N244 submission date + 14/15"?
  

 

Lastly, can the Court change any dates I request on the N244 at their discretion? Give them more time than what I have requested they be given, and/or give me less time for filing my defence than what I've put on as the new deadline?

 

 

Sorry for the very specifc and detailed questions but I want to do it right and not mess up any timescales.

 

 

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

ph

[citizenB]

When you put in an application you can only "suggest" a time line - obviously the court itself will set any dates to suit their diary.

[poundhound1808]

Just phoned the court - currently, the fee for an N244 is £80 and it could take up to 4 weeks to be dealt with! I'll still put in the dates as if it were being dealt with asap, and then have to wait what new dates the court sets.

 

Also, would it be the right thing to do to inform BC of me having made an application under N244, and tell them they'll be hearing from the court in due course?

 

 

Still not sure whether to send Arrow a CCA request in the meantime, just to see if they can come up with the agreement - of course, this could backfire as if they have it, I'm sure to get it again through the N244 (no strike-out) and will then face the task of formulating a defence on that basis.

 

Is a claim just on the basis of an agreement acceptable, i.e. where do things like T&Cs, statement of account, DN, TN and NoA come into it? Just with the agreement, even if they have it in their possession, how can they prove that the amount they're claiming is accurate, and all other legally required steps have been taken?

[citizenB]

Just phoned the court - currently, the fee for an N244 is £80 and it could take up to 4 weeks to be dealt with! I'll still put in the dates as if it were being dealt with asap, and then have to wait what new dates the court sets.

 

Also, would it be the right thing to do to inform BC of me having made an application under N244, and tell them they'll be hearing from the court in due course?

 

 

Still not sure whether to send Arrow a CCA request in the meantime, just to see if they can come up with the agreement - of course, this could backfire as if they have it, I'm sure to get it again through the N244 (no strike-out) and will then face the task of formulating a defence on that basis.

 

Is a claim just on the basis of an agreement acceptable, i.e. where do things like T&Cs, statement of account, DN, TN and NoA come into it? Just with the agreement, even if they have it in their possession, how can they prove that the amount they're claiming is accurate, and all other legally required steps have been taken?

 

That fee is for application with a hearing.. it is less for application without a hearing.

 

Hmm, where does all the paperwork fit in ..

 

An agreement, properly signed and containing the prescribed terms as set out by the "Act" is required. CCA1974

 

Default Notice - a DN needs to be issued and not remedied before they can take further action.. ie terminate, demand the full sum and then start court action.

 

A default notice is a statutory document and needs to be compliant in every respect.

 

It must : Allow 14 clear days in which to remedy the breach (therefore they must allow sufficient time for posting) = 2 business days for 1st class - 4 business days for 2nd class/UK Mail.

If for instance the DN is dated on a day which is a Friday then an extra 2 days is required to be added on to the above posting allowances.

 

It must state the name and business address of the Original Creditor.

It must only ask for genuine arrears - so if there are a number of penalty charges included it makes the amount asked for incorrect and the DN invalid

It must state accurately the clause breached

Certain parts of the DN must be highlighted

It must also contain reference to OFT information and include the OFT leaflet.

The two judgments attached could be used to bolster an invalid DN. In Harrison v Link it should be noted that the "debtor" - Harrison, was the claimant.. he had brought the claim against Link/MBNA for harrasment and they counterclaimed.. and lost big time.

 

Harrison v Link Financial Ltd ALL ER (2011).pdf

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2011/1187.html

 

Harrison v Link was heard in the High Court and Brandon was heard in the Appeal Court. So both judgments are binding on lower courts.

 

 

Termination Notice - if the above is incorrect or hasnt been sent then the Termination is duff.

 

Notice of Assignment - If the account is assigned / sold then either the Assignee or the Assignor must advise that it has happened and when. It has happened before.. where a company has started legal action only for it to be discovered that the date of Assignment was incorrect and that the Claimant had no standing in court - it should have been the original creditor who brought the claim.

[poundhound1808]

Thank you again, citizenB, can't give you a rating as have to "spread" first but will do so as soon as I am able to.

 

Court confirmed fee without a hearing is £45. I'll get the form etc. plus the letter to BC done over the weekend.

 

I know it will be quite some time until hopefully a new deadline for my defence but would the lack of these items in the PoC be part of the text for my defence, as you have suggested in your earlier post?

 

I'm particularly wary of the warnings by pt re. "Embarrassed defences" but I suppose will cross that bridge when I get to it. In the meantime, more reading to be done, all of which will contribute towards a costs order should I ever have the opportunity to draw one up - good to see that the hourly rate has gone up to £18.

[citizenB]

The Claimants pleaded case is not sufficient for the purposes of CPR 16. The Claimants pleaded case is lacking the most basic facts and detail such as dates of demands made by the Claimant, date of default, date of service of notice of assignment, date of service of default notice and date of agreement, which has alleged to be breached. This information is fundamental to the Claimants case, yet no details are offered or pleaded.

Despite repeated attempts to obtain this information, the claimant has refused to disclose and is preventing the Defendant from submitting a defence

You could also point out that there has been no statement of account provided either so you are unable to assess if the amount claimed is accurate.

You should maybe wait until others have some input

[citizenB]

Well I spoke to the court today. They have received my N244 application and posted a letter out to me yesterday.

 

They tell me there is a bar on judgement (preventing RW getting judgement by default), apparently I may not get a decision on my application for 3-6 weeks.

 

When asked, they said that once a decision was made re my N244 then, if the judge refused my application, RW would be able to enter judgement against me - therefore I should still enter a defence to prevent that happening (once a decision is made on the N244 then RW and I will be notified).

 

I'll draft up a defence over the weekend and submit it as I don't want to risk a refusal of my N244 and RW getting judgement by default before I receive the notification.

 

This is the advice given to another cagger who has put in an application for disclosure.. you will see the court have advised DDmaker to enter a defence of sorts in order to prevent any default judgment being given.

[citizenB]

If you werent sent a Default Notice.. ever..

Default under s87 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974

The Claimant pleads that the Defendant breached his contract. By virtue of a breach of contract and pursuant to s87 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 the Claimant is required to serve a default notice in the form prescribed by Consumer Credit Default Enforcement and Termination Notices Regulations 1983(The Regulations). No notice compliant with the Consumer Credit Act was served therefore the Claimant is barred from terminating the agreement and demanding the sums claimed from the Defendant.

[poundhound1808]

Originally Posted by DD maker

Well I spoke to the court today. They have received my N244 application and posted a letter out to me yesterday.

 

They tell me there is a bar on judgement (preventing RW getting judgement by default), apparently I may not get a decision on my application for 3-6 weeks.

 

When asked, they said that once a decision was made re my N244 then, if the judge refused my application, RW would be able to enter judgement against me - therefore I should still enter a defence to prevent that happening (once a decision is made on the N244 then RW and I will be notified).

 

I'll draft up a defence over the weekend and submit it as I don't want to risk a refusal of my N244 and RW getting judgement by default before I receive the notification.

This is the advice given to another cagger who has put in an application for disclosure.. you will see the court have advised DDmaker to enter a defence of sorts in order to prevent any default judgment being given.

That sounds a bit odd to me even though the advice came from a court - isn't the whole idea of doing an N244 to halt the process and suspend any deadline for a defence until the application has been decided upon? Even if it were subsequently declined, surely a new deadline for the defence should be set then?

 

Got my N244 ready to go tomorrow - will phone the court before the end of the week to see if they recommend the same as above (i.e. still submit a defense).

[poundhound1808]

Court has ruled on my N244 application, which included an Unless Order and a request of a strike-out if AG don't comply within a certain timeframe, plus payment of my application costs.

 

None of this was ruled, rather, the judge ordered that the claim is stayed until such time as the Claimant complies with the Defendant's CPR 31.14 request.

 

Time for service of Defence is extended to 14 days after service of documents.

 

 

Does this mean that they now have unlimited time for complying and providing the documents? I.e. to find something that they should have had in their possession before issuing the claim?? I really don't think this is fair but highlights the preferential treatment of companies over LiPs once again.

 

How long do I reasonably have to wait until I could make another application for strike-out?

 

Also, no mention of my costs, as expected. BC's sloppy approach and tactical manoeuvring means that I'm now in limbo and out of pocket, at least for the time being. Brilliant system.

[citizenB]

Well good news that your application has been accepted.. but I find it rather odd that the Judge hasnt given them a date by which they need to provide the information. However, he has made it clear that you have 14 days after receiving the information to put in a defence. So the long they take to provide, the longer you have.

 

I will try and find someone who could probably explain the workings of the judicial mind on this one.. it doesnt really appear to have totally covered the issues.