Caught on train with own manufactured train ticket

[Maximaxi]

I was caught by the train manager using my own manufactured e- ticket on a Virgin train to London.

 

The person dealing with me at London Euston said he was going to take me to court even though I offered to pay the ticket that I evaded, he said I would have a possible fine and Conviction.

 

I admitted it to him I had deliverate intent to evade paying the fare and travelled on the train without a valid ticket when he asked.

 

I'm not going to write any excuses for my actions as I know what I did was very very foolish thinking it's not a big deal (now I know it's a very serious deal and didn't think I would land into this much trouble).

 

I would like to ask a number of questions and appreciate any advice given:

 

1). Would the next step be I receive a summons from Court or will I get a letter from Virgin trains first stating they're going to prosecute me?

 

2). I begged the guy dealing with me at the station to let me pay the train ticket as I didn't want to be summoned to court but he wasn't having any of it, can I in the meantime get in touch with Virgin train's prosecution department and settle this first before receiving any letters or summons?

 

3). Will they be prosecuting me on three things i.e not travelling without a valid ticket, evade paying a train fare and making a fraudulent copy of a train ticket?

 

4). If I receive a court summons will this be in London or my local magistrates?

 

5). Is there any point asking a solicitor to help me to try and settle this before going to court? I really don't want a criminal conviction.

 

6). I asked the guy will I be going to prison and he said only if I don't pay the fine and costs etc, not attend court etc. Does that mean I won't be going to prison and only be ordered to pay fine, costs and compensation?

 

7). If found guilty I know I have to pay a fine, but will that definitely mean I will get a criminal record? Any such thing as just to pay the fine and avoid a criminal conviction.

 

8). Do you think I have to pay the max fine and wondering what the approximate costs and fees I have to pay being summoned to court?

 

This is my first offence and first time I've been in trouble, I'm really worried and know my stupidity will affect my current employment and any future employment prospects. It's not worth it after all.

[rebel11]

Hi Max

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will be happy to advise as soon as they are available.

 

Thread has been moved to the correct forum.

[BankFodder]

Difficult to answer al of those questions.

 

However, you will get a criminal record. You won't go to prison. The conviction will be spent after so many years - I can't remember how long, you will have to look it up. http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/privacy/spent-convictions-and-the-rehabilitation-of-offenders/how-a-conviction-becomes-spent.html

https://nextstep.direct.gov.uk/HelpAdviceandMoney/adviceforyoursituation/helpandadviceforexoffenders/Pages/disclosingconvictions.aspx

 

I'm afraid that having actually forged the document yourself makes it much more serious.

 

I think that the best thing to do is to be brutally honest from now on. Tell the court the truth and be very apologetic. Tell the court that you haven't asked a solicitor to help you because you realise that you have no excuse and you want to cause as little further trouble and expense to anyone involved. Tell the court that you make no excuses and that you only ask the court to accept that you have received such a shock by it all that you will never to such a silly thing again. Tell the court that you are sorry and that you will accept whatever punishment they have in mind for you.

 

I don't think that there is anything else you can do. I don't think that getting legal representation is going to improve anything very much at all.

 

I don't know what job you are in so I don't know how it will affect you

[Maximaxi]

Thanks BankFodder for your time and advice.

 

I really regret what I did and should've just paid the train ticket.

[SRPO]

Its quite possible that you have become the subject of an investigation, this may be by Virgin / their agents or by the BTP.

You really need to obtain some professional legal advice as this could end up as fraud rather than fare evasion.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, I agree with SRPO, this is one of the more serious types of ticket fraud / fare evasion and will be dealt with robustly.

 

Legal representation will be costly, but may keep the overall penalty down a bit, though the benefit has to be measured against the added cost of the lawyer. However clever the words are, there's no getting away from the fact that this was a premeditated attempt to avoid the liability for a fare.

[Justice_]

1). Would the next step be I receive a summons from Court or will I get a letter from Virgin trains first stating they're going to prosecute me?

You may receive a summons directly, although it is more likely that they will write to you first as they have nothing to lose by trying to get additional information about you.

 

2). I begged the guy dealing with me at the station to let me pay the train ticket as I didn't want to be summoned to court but he wasn't having any of it, can I in the meantime get in touch with Virgin train's prosecution department and settle this first before receiving any letters or summons?

They are extremely unlikely to settle this out of court. It is borderline fraud, and at the very least a serious breach of The Regulation of Railways Act 5.3.a. Due to the level of intent, I would be surprised if they did not go for fraud.

 

3). Will they be prosecuting me on three things i.e not travelling without a valid ticket, evade paying a train fare and making a fraudulent copy of a train ticket?

No, they will pick just one.

 

4). If I receive a court summons will this be in London or my local magistrates?

They could submit their court documents anywhere, and yes it is most likely to be London.

 

5). Is there any point asking a solicitor to help me to try and settle this before going to court? I really don't want a criminal conviction.

Yes, you would be wise to seek the advice of a solicitor, although there is very little chance that you will be able to settle out of court in this instance. If you are sent a letter, I would certainly suggest consulting with a solicitor before replying to it.

 

6). I asked the guy will I be going to prison and he said only if I don't pay the fine and costs etc, not attend court etc. Does that mean I won't be going to prison and only be ordered to pay fine, costs and compensation?

It is extremely unlikely that you will go to prison, unless there is evidence that you have done this before or have prior convictions (which I assume you don't). Even then, you can take this extremely serious example below and see that he only received a suspended sentence.

 

An IT expert recently put his skills to a different use by printing his own fake travel tickets to travel from East Sussex to London. Mr Moore, 27, from Hove, made his own tickets to travel from Brighton to London. It was only when a ticket inspector noticed that there were slight differences between his ticket and the official tickets that suspicions were aroused.

 

On further investigation 11 forged tickets were found on Mr Moore and over 70 fraudulent designs were found on his laptop at his Hove home.

 

Mr Moore pleaded guilty at Brighton Crown Court on 2nd October 2009 and was given a 9 month suspended prison sentence and ordered to pay £12,472 of unpaid railway fares to First Capital Connect

 

7). If found guilty I know I have to pay a fine, but will that definitely mean I will get a criminal record? Any such thing as just to pay the fine and avoid a criminal conviction.

 

Yes, you would get a criminal record if found guilty in court.

 

8). Do you think I have to pay the max fine and wondering what the approximate costs and fees I have to pay being summoned to court?

If convicted under RRA, you would likely receive a fine of a week's wages (approx £300 avg), plus prosecution costs (£150) and a victim surcharge (£15) for a total of around £465. This court be more as it is heavily premeditated. If convicted of Fraud, the fine would likely be 2-3 times greater.

[Justice_]

Also, the "Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill" that is currently going through Parliament would reduce the time until a fine conviction is 'spent' to 1 year, and a custodial sentence of less than 6 months (even if it is a suspended sentence) to 2 years after the end of that sentence.

[rambo]

Knew a girl yrs ago who got caught doing this, she was convicted for fraud.

Gotta take it on the chin fella......

[Maximaxi]

Thanks for all the info guys, really worried now. I will seek legal advice.

 

Rambo so what happened to the girl convicted of fraud?

[Justice_]

You may wish to take a look at the sentencing guidelines for Fraud (http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/guidelines/guidelines-to-download.htm), although they do not cover such a minor case as yours. If this is your first offence, and there is no evidence that you have done this before, I would expect a fine between £500 and £2500 or a community sentence.

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for all the info guys, really worried now. I will seek legal advice.

 

Rambo so what happened to the girl convicted of fraud?

 

If this is genuinely a first offence, although it is serious, things will not move very rapidly. I would try not to get too worked up and wait until you receive a verification letter from the rail company.

 

Once you receive that letter you will know exactly what you are being accused of and can make informed decisions rather than panicking about the unknown. You have PM.

[sequenci]

Free legal help via: http://www.lawcentres.org.uk/

 

Bankfodder's advice is always top notch too

 

Good luck!

[Maximaxi]

This is my first ever offence, haven't been in trouble before.

 

I've emailed [edit] and see what options I have but I know he's going to be very expensive if I go ahead with him.

 

I will wait for the verification letter from the rail company and see what they are prosecuting me for.

Edited February 22, 2012 by honeybee13
Firm's name edited.

[Maximaxi]

Old_CodJA: Did you get my PM.?

[Maximaxi]

Thanks Sequenci, any advice is good at the moment.

[Maximaxi]

Old_CodJA: Guess you didn't get me PM as my post count is not > 15 but thanks.

 

 

Thanks for your PM, this is my first and only offence.

 

I guess I was very naive in thinking if I got caught I would only have to pay a fine and the train fare that I evaded, didn't think I was harming anybody.

 

I've emailed [edit] seeing what my options are but I know they're going to be very expensive so is it worth asking for their help? I'd like to settle this out of court first maybe with the solicitors help and if that can't be done I guess I'll go to court by myself, if the criminal record is inevitable then no point having a solicitor in court. I really don't want a criminal record as if my manager/ company finds out (I'm a cabin crew), I will lose my job immediately, I know with a criminal record I will not be able to go to certain countries.

 

I know I should've thought of all this before going ahead with what I did but I very regret it now. I just feel really embarrassed of my actions and haven't told any of my friends or family, just don't want my family seeing the letter when it comes through the post.

 

I will wait for the Verification letter and see what they are going to prosecute me for.

 

I appreciate your advice, really.

Edited February 22, 2012 by honeybee13
Name removed.

[Old-CodJA]

Old_CodJA: Guess you didn't get me PM as my post count is not > 15 but thanks.

 

 

Thanks for your PM, this is my first and only offence.

 

I guess I was very naive in thinking if I got caught I would only have to pay a fine and the train fare that I evaded, didn't think I was harming anybody.

 

I've emailed [edit] seeing what my options are but I know they're going to be very expensive so is it worth asking for their help? I'd like to settle this out of court first maybe with the solicitors help and if that can't be done I guess I'll go to court by myself, if the criminal record is inevitable then no point having a solicitor in court. I really don't want a criminal record as if my manager/ company finds out (I'm a cabin crew), I will lose my job immediately, I know with a criminal record I will not be able to go to certain countries.

 

I know I should've thought of all this before going ahead with what I did but I very regret it now. I just feel really embarrassed of my actions and haven't told any of my friends or family, just don't want my family seeing the letter when it comes through the post.

 

I will wait for the Verification letter and see what they are going to prosecute me for.

 

I appreciate your advice, really.

 

 

 

Many people end up with a conviction because they try to forget about it and bury their head in the sand. It's always best to face up to the fact that all actions have consequences and deal with it whilst everything is fresh in mind.

 

With something as serious as this type of fare evasion, it may well be worth the expense of a solicitor who may decide to write to the TOC on your behalf very early in the process and see if an alternative disposal can be reached. If not, don't jump into assuming what the charge might be, wait until you know what they allege and then you and your legal advisor will know exactly what you are dealing with.

 

For your own purposes it is a good idea to make a note of exactly what you did and said and exactly what you remember of what the train manager said when you were questioned and keep that as an aide memoir for when you talk to your solicitor.

 

I don't ever suggest any particular law firm and think that might even be contrary to forum rules. You can always find one close to the Court if you are Summonsed and it is usually best to use a firm dealing with criminal matters who know the actual Court and staff where your case is listed though obviously not essential to do so. [edit] are a nationally known firm who do advertise having specialists in this field. Whether you immediately approach their solicitors or not is a matter for you, but the key thing is to act promptly.

 

There is no getting away from the fact that this is a serious matter and you should expect to receive a summons, but it isn't necessarily a life changing event.

Edited February 22, 2012 by honeybee13
Name removed.

[Maximaxi]

I guess it's just my pride and face, not wanting family and friends to know that I did a ridiculously stupid thing and now in trouble for it.

[rebel11]

Hi max

 

If your struggling to deal with the matter, it's worth contacting CAB, it's free.

[honeybee13]

From Old-CodJA

 

'I don't ever suggest any particular law firm and think that might even be contrary to forum rules. You can always find one close to the Court if you are Summonsed and it is usually best to use a firm dealing with criminal matters who know the actual Court and staff where your case is listed though obviously not essential to do so. [edit] are a nationally known firm who do advertise having specialists in this field. Whether you immediately approach their solicitors or not is a matter for you, but the key thing is to act promptly.'

 

You're right , it's not allowed.

 

Maximaxi, there is a forum member called Wriggler7 who is in the legal profession. I haven't seen him here recently, but he always said to look for a solicitor who is local to the court where the case is to be heard, someone who has dealt with train companies on a regular basis. When the time comes, you'll be able to ring a few firms and find out what experience they have to see who you think you'd like to deal with.

 

There's also Sequenci's link for community legal advice earlier on this thread.

 

My best, HB

[Maximaxi]

Will keep you updated on the next step, guess just take one day at a time. I will wait for the verification letter and write to TOC to see if they're willing to settle this out of court. If not then just plea guilty and hope for the best in regards with my future.

 

In the meantime though I will seek advice from a community legal advisor and CAB to probably put my mind more at ease, all this stress is not doing me any good.

[Justice_]

I've emailed [edit] seeing what my options are but I know they're going to be very expensive so is it worth asking for their help? I'd like to settle this out of court first maybe with the solicitors help and if that can't be done I guess I'll go to court by myself, if the criminal record is inevitable then no point having a solicitor in court. I really don't want a criminal record as if my manager/ company finds out (I'm a cabin crew), I will lose my job immediately, I know with a criminal record I will not be able to go to certain countries.

 

Since you have an obvious and real risk of losing your job, you may have a better chance of being able to reach an out of court settlement with the TOC. If you want to stand the best chance of achieving this, then you should contact a specialist (there's more than just the one mentioned by Old-CodJA). They will know the best way to convince the TOC to settle. The fact in itself that you have hired a solicitor can help, as it shows the TOC that you have already incurred significant expense, and that you are taking the matter very seriously.

[oddjobbob]

Looks like old sparky for you OP lol.

[Old-CodJA]

(there's more than just the one mentioned by Old-CodJA)..

 

In fairness I did not mention any particular firm, it was the OP who actually named them and HB has quite rightly removed the name from the posts.

 

The point that HB makes regarding advice given many times in the past is very important. If you have to consult a lawyer in these sort of cases, it is always best to get the best deal you can with someone who deals regularly with criminal matters and is familiar with the court where your case is to be heard.

 

Almost daily we see letters from lawyers representing people charged with these offences, but find their understanding of the specific legislation is sadly lacking. Frequently it will be someone who specialises in conveyancing, civil rights or commercial law and whilst they undoubtedly know their own specialism very well, they may not alway be equipped to achieve the best for their client and will normally want paying for all the time they spend on a case. It's a bit like everything else we buy I'm afraid, the quality can be variable.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Old-CodJA