Me Vs Natwest (£17,300 debt total) Cost Awarded to Bank, house+Sanity at Risk

[aluta_continua]

BACKGROUND: I and my husband had taken a loan from Natwest of £15,000 after we were called in for account review appointment.

By the time I started university in 2004, there was already problem with our finances, although my husband is in full time work, things still could not add up, because of the repayments on loan and credit cards which had so quickly massed up, we found ourselves paying childcare with credit cards.

My husband then decided to approach the bank after we’ve had a lengthy discussion, to arrange a lower monthly payment. He came back home with a new loan agreement and sat me down, saying that the bank said this is the only way or they might start actions which will put out house at risk of eventual repossession, I still refused to sign the agreement but my husband insisted and pressured me into signing as it was causing a fight.

Natwest had repackaged the £15,000 loan into a £25,000 loan! I felt trapped and had really bad premonition, but my husband said he trusted the advise of the Natwest staff. Not long after, we ran into difficulties again, as there was nothing left by the time Natwest all their abracadabra interests and overdraft.Before you could say hello, Natwest had gone to court, even though we had by now got intouch with a debt management company and were paying Natwest some money monthly.

 

COURT CASE: Point of Law NatWest should naturally lose the case because they had made a fundamental error which ultimately invalidates the agreement and thus the loan. They had constructed the agreement on a wrong form! The agreement was a cancellable agreement because:OFT advised that: ... If the agreement is cancellable (because it was signed off trade premises), notice of cancellation rights must be included in the copy agreement, and must also generally be sent by post or email to the borrower within seven days.

If the above requirements are not met, the lender can only enforce the agreement against the borrower by getting a court order. The problem was that the agreement was sold to us as non cancellable, there is ample evidence that it should have been a cancellable agreement and indeed, the bank did not contest this fact when the case went to court.

Also,Section 67 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states that:67. Cancellable agreements.A regulated agreement may be cancelled by the debtor or hirer in accordance with this Part if the antecedent negotiations included oral representations made when in the presence of the debtor or hirer by an individual acting as, or on behalf of, the negotiator, unless... (the exclusions indicated are not applicable to us).

This was a joint loan but it was sold to me alone when I went to the bank to negotiate repayment on previous loan. I took it home to my wife who refused to sign, but who I forced to sign by stating the advise I was given at the bank that this is the only way out.

Unknown to me that it was the worst advise and the bank is avoiding responsibility for this.The mistake above meant by law that the agreement was improperly executed and cannot contain the necessary prescribed term, what my husband continue to call irredeemably unenforceable.

The law that guides the court states that: Section 65 Consumer Credit Act 1974 Consequences of improper execution.(1)An improperly-executed regulated agreement is enforceable against the debtor or hirer on an order of the court only.

 

The question now is: Can the county fail to apply Section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974? It then went further to add in section 127 that:127 (3)The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

It does not take a genius, to put these together.The answer seems to be yes, in this case. But I am convinced that the fact that I cannot defend myself properly, the fact that I was not represented, the fact that my husband was not allowed to speak freely in court on my behalf had been material to the outcome of the case.It is my husband that knows all the argument, I had no clue what was going on.During the county court hearing, the bank solicitor accepted that the agreement should have been cancellable and agreed that the court cannot enforce the agreement if it found that the agreement was, we were happy during the initial discussions when this was cleared but later, the court then went on to find the agreement is enforceable, my husband tried to point out why it should not be but the judge said he’s not qualified to represent me and I had no clue what to say.

Not only that, Natwest was awarded cost of over £3,000 bringing the debt to £17,000 plus. My husband appealed the decision on my behalf and we were asked to send in the appeal argument, my husband started running from pillar to post, he went to Citizens Advice Bureau, and various other agencies, but none of them are able to help with consumer credit litigation!

I have now received a letter stating that Natwest is going for my house, Natwest has now applied to place a charge on our house, the mortgage is already about 3 months behind and I am about to lose my house! I need help!I still believe that there is a case, possibly a test case to be fought and I am seeking help and advise to go to a higher court to protect my home, my family and my sanity.With help of my husband have now created www.helpfightabank.co.uk where all the above is from. Every little help and advice helps.

[paulwlton]

Could you post up the agreement?

[aluta_continua]

The agreement document is attached. Thank you.

[paulwlton]

The agreement document is attached. Thank you.

 

The images are too small.

[cerberusalert]

Can you either post them as a pdf or zip file?

 

Alternatively you can upload them to a hosting site such as tinypic & then copy & paste the Urls back here.

[aluta_continua]

The agreement are now attached as pdf. Thank you.

Natwest Agreement page1 (2).pdf

Natwest Agreement page2 (2).pdf

[stripper]

Hi

When was the Court Action taken(date)

[aluta_continua]

Court action was iabout one year ago, but I appealed, paid and filled the appeal form. I was then seeking for help to get professional help, I contacted CAB, the legal support, but they do not give such help and everyone other people seem to agree that the appeal was in order but I do not have the £5000 the solicitor was demanding. Then I got letter from the bank stating that the appeal was dismissed.

[aluta_continua]

The court action was January 2011, the judgement and appeal were in February 2011. The dismissal of the undefended appeal was in about August 2011. The charging order hearing was January this year.

[Gaston Grimsdyke]

Is the agreement cancellable? The husband appears to have signed it at the bank, and whilst the wife signed it at home, there were no negotiations between her and the bank. So not cancellable. Doesn't really matter anyway, there has been a full blown trial followed by an appeal both of which the OP lost so that's that. As for the charging order proceedings, there is a world of difference between getting a charge and losing the house. Make a sensible offer of payment to the bank and there will be no chance of losing the house.

[aluta_continua]

Is the agreement cancellable? The husband appears to have signed it at the bank, and whilst the wife signed it at home, there were no negotiations between her and the bank. So not cancellable. Doesn't really matter anyway, there has been a full blown trial followed by an appeal both of which the OP lost so that's that. As for the charging order proceedings, there is a world of difference between getting a charge and losing the house. Make a sensible offer of payment to the bank and there will be no chance of losing the house.

 

 

 

Okay, the main thing that is worrying is, can one agreement be both cancellable and non cancellable?

[stripper]

Is the mortgage in Joint names?

[Gaston Grimsdyke]

Okay, the main thing that is worrying is, can one agreement be both cancellable and non cancellable?

 

No, it's one or the other. But does it matter any more? You ran the argument at trial and lost. You appealed and lost. There's nowhere else to go with this now.

[Lea_HTH]

You seem to be getting hung up on whether or not the agreement was able to be cancelled, but the bottom line is that it no longer matters. The only difference the cancellation element would have made is that when you signed it at home, coerced by your husband (there might have been an argument against enforceability against you, if you feel your husband used duress to get you to sign - but you'd have needed a solicitor/barrister for that and you obviously were unable to retain legal counsel) you would then have had 7 days to change your mind as you signed it off the bank's premises. That's it. Because that didn't happen, the bank had to go to court to enforce the loan when you defaulted on it (which they would have had to do anyway), and the court found that you owed the money and that the element you are stuck on (cancellation) is no longer relevant.

 

As someone else said above, make an agreement to make payments against the charging order and hopefully nothing further should happen. Or, engage a solicitor to look at the potential defence of duress.

[aluta_continua]

You seem to be getting hung up on whether or not the agreement was able to be cancelled, but the bottom line is that it no longer matters. The only difference the cancellation element would have made is that when you signed it at home, coerced by your husband (there might have been an argument against enforceability against you, if you feel your husband used duress to get you to sign - but you'd have needed a solicitor/barrister for that and you obviously were unable to retain legal counsel) you would then have had 7 days to change your mind as you signed it off the bank's premises. That's it. Because that didn't happen, the bank had to go to court to enforce the loan when you defaulted on it (which they would have had to do anyway), and the court found that you owed the money and that the element you are stuck on (cancellation) is no longer relevant.

 

As someone else said above, make an agreement to make payments against the charging order and hopefully nothing further should happen. Or, engage a solicitor to look at the potential defence of duress.

 

 

Thanks for that, I actually stated in court that I signed the agreement under duress, this might just be the way to go. Thank you very much. As long as there is a fighting, chance, I don't want to give up.

[Lea_HTH]

Thanks for that, I actually stated in court that I signed the agreement under duress, this might just be the way to go. Thank you very much. As long as there is a fighting, chance, I don't want to give up.

 

You will NEED a solicitor and a barrister to prepare this type of claim for you - it is absolutely not something you can do yourself. I will say that the fact that you are still with your husband dilutes the 'duress' element quite substantially.

[aluta_continua]

Thanks for that, will seek advice. Husband did not disagree that he forced me into it. That is why he has been fighting all along, drafting letters to fight unenforceability. Divorce is not just an option for me.

[aluta_continua]

Is the mortgage in Joint names?

 

Unfortunately, yes.

[terriersaregreat]

Arn't there loads of cases where wives have signed without legal advice. I thought that financial institutions had to send you for seperate legal advice when obtaining your signature. This all seems a bit odd really with your husband asking you to sign at home. Who witnessed your signature?

[aluta_continua]

Arn't there loads of cases where wives have signed without legal advice. I thought that financial institutions had to send you for seperate legal advice when obtaining your signature. This all seems a bit odd really with your husband asking you to sign at home. Who witnessed your signature?

 

 

Hi, I'm sorry been away. Nobody witnessed the signature. Everybody have said that this is a weird case and I hope not to give up.

[aluta_continua]

It may also interest everyone to note that NATWEST have now sent a formal discontinuation letter through the court for the claim against my husband's. They also sent a letter to me seeking a payment terms, but I am just waiting and hoping to get help to be able to institute a fresh case against them.