Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[keefyboy]

Just for Info, a friend of mine (she is a staff nurse) has been approached by an agency to have a telephone interview and if that goes OK then a formal Interview with someone in Nottingham, the job...... to do Interviews for PIP assessments, which may entail going out to clients home to do a medical assessment..... it is NOT CAPITA, who we was told would be doing the PIP assessments in the East Midlands....... so I wonder who this is then?

[SWLABR9]

So why would a transcript be rejected, on what grounds?

[matt v atos]

So why would a transcript be rejected, on what grounds?

 

As I understand It would be up to the court.

[keefyboy]

If I remember correctly you could send a copy of the Transcript to the other side (by recorded delivery so you have a receipt of delivery) giving all the details of where when and names (somehow) then they would be aware you are using a copy of the transcript as evidence in your appeal, and as they are playing silly buggers about recording interviews and will not supply details of when they could supply the equipment you can use, it would have to be taken into account.... Like when Police do an interview they always say where when and whom is present in the interview. This is only my OWN OPINION and should not be taken as law......

[SWLABR9]

If it was up to the court do we have any idea of what could make them reject a transcript as evidence?

[antone]

If it was up to the court do we have any idea of what could make them reject a transcript as evidence?

 

It is up to the judge what will be admitted as evidence and what will be rejected. I think the consensus here among those who look at such issues is that transcripts and even the actual recording will often be allowed.

 

However, the obvious problem with a transcript, or even a recording where the chain of custody is not documented, would be the possibility of tampering. I suspect judges might be more willing to accept these things in civil benefits tribunals than in a criminal court, but we can't be sure.

[SWLABR9]

We might reasonably assume a transcript backed up by a recording should alter the balance of probabilities in your favour.

[matt v atos]

We might reasonably assume a transcript backed up by a recording should alter the balance of probabilities in your favour.

 

Would still be up to the judge !

[antone]

We might reasonably assume a transcript backed up by a recording should alter the balance of probabilities in your favour.

 

We might, yes. As a general rule, I think judges should admit them as evidence unless there's some obvious reason to believe that they've been altered.

 

I do wonder, though, how folks would feel if the DWP or Atos was covertly recording interviews and assessments and then seeking to have that evidence admitted at a tribunal.

[SWLABR9]

Why would they? It's Atos and the DWP who have everything to hide, not claimants.

[antone]

Why would they? It's Atos and the DWP who have everything to hide, not claimants.

 

Eh, I don't want to get too deep into this, because broadly I agree with where you're coming from. But the courts and tribunals can't take this approach - they have to be impartial. A priori assuming that the DWP and Atos are hiding things is not impartial, so I can't see why evidence covertly recorded by one party should be OK, but not the other.

 

Of course, I do agree that it's far less likely that Atos would want to have such evidence admitted, but this is a hypothetical.

[2ltr16valve]

:2ltr16valve:

 

Are you able to tell us whether you've got Atos written agreement to a make/model of Dictaphone?

 

And whether the form looks like the one below;

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/188599/response/468149/attach/3/ATTACHMENT.pdf

 

Margaret.

 

 

This is what they sent me

 

 

[**Margaret**]

:Hi 2ltr16valve:

 

Thanx for copying your letter onto CAG so that we can see it.

 

Most of the letter is one version of the standard information that Atos/Capita send to claimants about the 'reasonable conditions' for an audio recorded by claimant assessment. Assuming your name and address are above the initial paragraph, Atos have adapted the instructions into a personal letter.

 

There's a possible contradiction between Dictaphones and standard cassette tapes, most Dictaphones use mini cassettes. And there's different interpretations of the word 'appropriate'. Suspect it's more likely than not that your Dictaphones will be declared unsuitable on the day, for one excuse or another.

 

But your letter's one I've not seen before, so I'll be interested to hear :nolegion:'s comments.

 

Margaret.

 

Just read #1145 again. as to what Atos want you to do with the consent form.

[2ltr16valve]

Hi

 

Yea my details are above the first paragraph I just took them out if the shot save editing lol

 

I've no idea what they expect me to do with the form to be honest as they have given no instruction with regards to that. Do I keep it an fill it out in the day or send it back lol

[keefyboy]

It does say on the last paragraph to sign and return to them PRIOR to the appointment... Don't forget to take a copy for your own records just in case.

[nolegion]

A. 2 ltr. Many thanks for the copy letter.

 

If you can possibly manage it, I would send the signed 'consent form' (legally, it's tripe) back to Atos with a covering letter, recorded delivery, carefully specifying the (dual) equipment you propose to use in full, and asking for confirmation in writing that this will be acceptable. Copy documents to be retained by you, of course, as already suggested.

 

If you get anything out of them in writing - either confirming or rejecting the equipment concerned - please do post the correspondence here. I have yet to meet anyone who has succeeded in this so far, but we can always hope.

 

Best of luck.

 

 

B. Summary of background

 

That written communication from DWATO is indeed pasted from stuff that has been available from or via their website for a while now.

 

And it's all been porkies – so far.

 

1. 'Dictaphone' was the trading name of a company that went out of business with the ark but, as Margaret suggests, it is a term still widely used for any 'micro cassette' machine, and also, now, held-held digital 'voice- recorders' which usually record onto a small, internal, hard drive (Much as some people still use the word 'Hoover' when referring to different types of vacuum- cleaner.)

 

2. DWATO has refused to approve the use of two micro-cassette recorders ( on 'recording quality' grounds), or any hand-held digital recorder recording onto an internal hard drive. Use of (two) 'dictaphones' will thus not be acceptable no matter what their documentation says ( = Porky-pie 1).

 

3. They say they will accept two other 'formats'. First, simultaneous recordings directly onto 2 CDs. No-one can afford this, as they are well aware. Their own equipment which does this costs over well over £1000 and is not available for purchase by the general public in any event. (Thus = porky-pie 2.)

 

4. The other format they say they will accept is two simultaneously-recorded 'audio-cassettes' (by which one can discover they only mean 'normal size' cassette-tapes). At first people thought there might be some real use in this – because you can still get hold of a range of two of these, and the tapes to go with them, relatively cheaply, though it's a chunk of change out of many a claimant's budget. But in fact, no: this is porky-pie 3, BECAUSE:-

 

5. They have always refused, and they continue to refuse the use of any such two, affordable hand-held audio-cassette recorders also on 'recording quality' grounds. Indeed they have refused substantially more expensive desk-top models as well.

 

6. Even when they have approved the use of specified equipment on the phone, come the assessment, the ill-health-unprofessional will (at best) say they know nothing about it, and claimants arrive on the misery-go-round of continuous rescheduling of appointments\ abortive visits etc., causing delayed entitlement and great stress.

 

C. Conclusion

 

In my view the DWP, and it's definitely the Department's responsibility, is in flagrant breach of its own legal advice, obtained over 3 years ago, concerning not raising unreasonable obstructions to claimants obtaining recordings, and this becomes particularly marked, of course, in the case of PIP interviews, as in 2ltr's case, where there isn't even the option of waiting for the 'service provider' to see if it has any of its own kit in working repair.

 

If anyone has any more up-to-date information than this, I would much like to learn about it. I, and I know others, have been trying to get DWATO to put in writing either approval or disapproval of specific 'audio-cassette' equipment, so we could all examine their position i.e. in threads like this. I have, so far, failed; others tell me they have too, and I can find no trace on the net of success elsewhere to date.

[nolegion]

Out of the mouth of Atos's 'Head of Communications and Customer Relations', last Monday:-

 

"… if you imagine someone being asked to come in for an assessment with Atos Healthcare at the moment - they read the media stories, they listen to the public rhetoric, and understand what people have said about us.

 

They might come into that assessment feeling that the assessor they are going to see is someone who will treat them with contempt, who can't be trusted, who isn't trained.

 

They then might have to come into an assessment centre and walk past protestors; they might sit opposite someone in the waiting room with an 'Atos Kills' T-shirt.

 

And then perhaps the nurse comes out, and what we've seen quite often now is people coming into an assessment and they are actually saying to people at the end of it, 'By the way, you have just been recorded on my iPhone, and I'm going to expose you on the internet.' "

 

Say not the struggle nought availeth.

 

(House of Commons select committee - 09 06 14.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=15486

Ref.12:15 to 13:00)