meteor parking ticket (southeastern ashford kent)

[gezzer123]

IMG.pdfHI

I need help in deciding wether i should pay this parking ticket, i purchased a weekly car park ticket on 23/01/12 and recieved this parking ticket on 24/01/12 the scenario is i went to park at ashford(kent) trainstation and there was not 1 space i drove round and round the carpark until i had 5 min before my train turned up so i parked it in the carpark on the verge and went to work, when i returned i had this car park ticket from meteor and it stated the offence was unauthorised parking i have got 15days to pay £45 after that its £90, my argument is i have paid for a weekly ticket and they have failed to supply i would like to know where i stand many thanks paul.

[ManxRed]

Its an unenforceable private ticket anyway. My recommendation would be to ignore this, and ignore any follow up letters. However if you receive anything from them that suddenly start mentioning railway Byelaws then come back for advice. I've only seen one company issue a PPC ticket and then change tack to a Byelaws action later, but it wasn't Meteor. As it stands, despite the fact that the piece of paper you have posted looks like a parking ticket, its actually an invoice for a sum charged for breaching a contract. Under civil law, the only redress for breaching a contract is actual losses suffered (which, as you have paid for a weekly ticket, is zero). So they cannot simply try and charge you £90 or £45 for breaching. It wouldn't last 5 minutes in court.

[gezzer123]

manxred

I thank you for a quick response i look forward to anymore comments i feel like its legalised robbery, there are 2 carparks at ashford to do with the trainstation and together hold about 500 cars approx but they could be selling around 1000 tickets or more and surely if they are taking the money thay have a legal oblication to supply the space as you have paid for.

[Jamberson]

Exactly what Manx said. It is not a parking ticket in the normal sense and does not need to be paid. You should just ignore it, and the letters they will send you.

 

As you point out - it's legalised robbery. Don't help them rob you by paying!!!

[Tony P]

As you point out - it's legalised robbery

Hardly legalised. Just not illegal.

[firstclassx]

Can I point out (as a newbie sorry) that this could turn into a more serious Railway Byelaw offence if it wasn't paid? Meteor is an authorised agent of Southeastern.

 

Byelaw 14 is quite clear.

 

(1) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall

use it on any part of the railway in contravention of any traffic sign

 

 

(2) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall

leave or place it on any part of the railway:

(i) in any manner or place where it may cause an

obstruction or hindrance to an Operator or any person using

the railway

 

Could turn into a Court Date and fine.

[ManxRed]

I have pointed out in my post above that if the OP starts getting letters mentioning Byelaws then they should come back for advice. However the ticket as issued does not mention byelaws, and does not mention such byelaw related conditions (for example that the only appeal is via Magistrates Court (they have stated that appeals must be sent to the parking company) and that the charge is for breaching terms and conditions laid down by the parking company, NOT for breaching rail byelaws. Hence, for now, they are trying to pocket the charge themselves (under byelaws this would not be the case - greedy greedy PPC!!). Hence as it stands, it should be ignored.

[Tony P]

Could turn into a Court Date and fine.

 

Could turn out to be a Meteor plant.

[Jamberson]

The ticket, shown above is for a breach of T&Cs. What basis is there for suggesting this could "turn into" a byleaw offence?

[Tony P]

The ticket, shown above is for a breach of T&Cs. What basis is there for suggesting this could "turn into" a byleaw offence?

 

The basis of my post above most likely.

His design being to scare the OP into paying his firm, against the advice of those here who have a long record of consistently using much knowledge and providing good solid advice. (as we all know!)

 

Geezer

Everyone here started once - but be wary of the motives of brand new members with a low or nil post count who suddenly start rubishing long standing posters, misquote things or introduce non-relevant scares stories.

 

I may have done firstclassx a disservice (for which I will willingly apologise if I am proven wrong) but I very much doubt it!

[gezzer123]

i thank you all for your comments (good or bad) i have decided not to pay and if it goes to court i will go and my argument will be i have paid for a weeks parking over 24hrs previous and you have failed to supply the space but they took the money ok i think it will get thrown out and i still have the ticket i paid for

[Tony P]

Keep us informed.

There are some very knowledgeable people here who will be able to help, once there is something specific to fight.

[gezzer123]

today i have recieved this letter going on about byelaw 14 my argument is still i paid for a weekly ticket and they failed to supply the space (i have kept all paperwork in case i do goto court) i enclose image of the letter recieved pls help many thanks

Edited May 18, 2012 by gezzer123

[gezzer123]

[gezzer123]

please can anyone help with this letter about bylaw 14

[Jamberson]

It's too small to read. Can you load it onto a site such as photobucket, then give us a link so we can view it there.

[firstclassx]

I may have done firstclassx a disservice (for which I will willingly apologise if I am proven wrong) but I very much doubt it!

 

I told you that the Byelaws would start being mentioned if ignored.

 

There is currently a major drive within the general rail industry known as "Travelsafe", (especially FCC), to use the criminal Byelaws as opposed to civil action, (Penalty Fares, UFNs etc). The curirent government is keen for courts to be used, and for rail franchises to show a commitment to "revenue protection".

 

Although in this Byelaw 14 case, there is a way to go before it getting to court, (if it does at all), people cannot be so confident that it certainly never will reach a (criminal) court. The simple principal is that if it does get to court, a prosecution would be successful. Forum members are naively hedging their bets that it won't get to court. Meteor are well within their rights (and may be obliged to) inform SouthEastern's Prosecution Manager about an offence that has occurred on railway premises, and despite civil resolution being offered, no cooperation from the offender was forthcoming. SouthEastern may have no option but to proceed using the Byelaws.

 

I am a Prosecutions Supervisor for a Train Operating Company and people are generally naive when it comes to "private prosecutions" and "private enforcement action" when on railway property. Indeed, most people don't and won't know that railway staff (or agent's of the railway), have a power of arrest & detention for certain revenue offences, or that we can use "reasonable force" to physically remove people from railway property for breaching any byelaw.

Edited May 19, 2012 by firstclassx

[gezzer123]

hi i have recieved another letter and its final before court sorry about previous letter being too small i have taken your advice and uploaded to photobucket please help many thanks this is the link i still believe i am in the right as i had bought a weekly car park ticket the day before and there was no space so my argument is they are selling tickets without the room to accomodate i need help on this urgent pls peoplemany thanks here is the link with personal info covered up many thanks:http://s1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii507/gezzer123/?action=view&current=IMG.jpg

Edited June 1, 2012 by gezzer123

[firstclassx]

I saw the letter before it was removed. In my opinion it is a genuine attempt to warn you that (criminal) court action will occur should the amount be unpaid. However, I would avoid speaking to the parking company direct. Ring SouthEastern trains and ask for their prosecutions department.

 

You can usually settle out of court for byelaw offences, so if SouthEastern won't entertain this, I'd be minded to pay the penalty and avoid a conviction.

 

A Byelaw is a strict liability offence. This makes it a very easy conviction as it means if you breach a byelaw, you are automatically guilty, with no legal defence.

 

I will make it clear (again) that Meteor staff have been authorized to carry out Byelaw Enforcement duties by SouthEastern Trains and are entitled to enforce the byelaws on their behalf. The court action will list SouthEastern Trains v gezzer123.

 

You could have a read of the Public Transport threads were people are often being persued for unpaid fares etc, and are subsequently prosecuted under Byelaw 17/18. A lot of good advice about Out of Court settlements can be found there.

[Sidewinder]

Hi Gezzer

 

I have moderated your post as the PCN shows your name, address and vehicle details. You need to edit the image using Paint, removing all identifiable information.

 

For what it is worth, there are several such cases on this site and others and the concensus is that this will not proceed. This is quite possibly a Private parking Company quoting a Byelaw which they have no legal authority to use. Have a read of this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?247689-Meteor-Orpington-I-m-actually-in-the-wrong-what-to-do/page4 and you will see that despite the threat of imminent magistrates court action, nothing further was heard.

[Sidewinder]

I saw the letter before it was removed. In my opinion it is a genuine attempt to warn you that (criminal) court action will occur should the amount be unpaid. However, I would avoid speaking to the parking company direct. Ring SouthEastern trains and ask for their prosecutions department.

 

You can usually settle out of court for byelaw offences, so if SouthEastern won't entertain this, I'd be minded to pay the penalty and avoid a conviction.

 

A Byelaw is a strict liability offence. This makes it a very easy conviction as it means if you breach a byelaw, you are automatically guilty, with no legal defence.

 

I will make it clear (again) that Meteor staff have been authorized to carry out Byelaw Enforcement duties by SouthEastern Trains and are entitled to enforce the byelaws on their behalf. The court action will list SouthEastern Trains v gezzer123.

 

You could have a read of the Public Transport threads were people are often being persued for unpaid fares etc, and are subsequently prosecuted under Byelaw 17/18. A lot of good advice about Out of Court settlements can be found there.

 

Whilst your advice is almost certainly well intentioned, the matter may not be as clear cut as you suggest. Meteor are a PPC and the original PCN refers only to a breach of Terms and Conditions NOT a contravention of a Byelaw. "This Car Park is regulated by the Terms and Conditions displayed...". There is no mention of 'Byelaw 14' on the original PCN, but instead only a reference to the T&Cs for car parking - the two are not the same.

 

There is no mention of the word 'Penalty' on the original ticket.

 

Do the signs at the car park make reference to the fact that the Terms are issued in accordance with railway byelaws, or are they just T&Cs set by Meteor?

 

The threatograms also only make reference to 'Byelaw' 14 as two words, rather than the full citation of the enabling act (ie Byelaw 14 of what exactly? What sections precisely of Byelaw 14?)

 

Is the car park actually owned by the railway or leased from a third party? A byelaw can only be effected on land owned by the company?

 

The Penalty (even if it is being correctly applied) can only be levied on the driver of the vehicle, not the owner or keeper. How has it been established that they are threatening to prosecute the right person?

 

If it were me, I would be asking for details of how they believe that the driver is responsible, whether the ticket was issued under the Byelaw or was a Private Parking ticket - if the former, then why is that not correctly stated on the ticket? Details of the Byelaw that is alleged to have been broken, for this is not quoted in correspondence, and that is just for a start.

 

There is still more to be established, but this smells like a PPC trying to quote a Byelaw in order to collect under false pretences.

[firstclassx]

Whilst your advice is almost certainly well intentioned, the matter may not be as clear cut as you suggest. Meteor are a PPC and the original PCN refers only to a breach of Terms and Conditions NOT a contravention of a Byelaw. "This Car Park is regulated by the Terms and Conditions displayed...". There is no mention of 'Byelaw 14' on the original PCN, but instead only a reference to the T&Cs for car parking - the two are not the same.

 

There is no mention of the word 'Penalty' on the original ticket.

 

Do the signs at the car park make reference to the fact that the Terms are issued in accordance with railway byelaws, or are they just T&Cs set by Meteor?

 

The threatograms also only make reference to 'Byelaw' 14 as two words, rather than the full citation of the enabling act (ie Byelaw 14 of what exactly? What sections precisely of Byelaw 14?)

 

Is the car park actually owned by the railway or leased from a third party? A byelaw can only be effected on land owned by the company?

 

The Penalty (even if it is being correctly applied) can only be levied on the driver of the vehicle, not the owner or keeper. How has it been established that they are threatening to prosecute the right person?

 

If it were me, I would be asking for details of how they believe that the driver is responsible, whether the ticket was issued under the Byelaw or was a Private Parking ticket - if the former, then why is that not correctly stated on the ticket? Details of the Byelaw that is alleged to have been broken, for this is not quoted in correspondence, and that is just for a start.

 

There is still more to be established, but this smells like a PPC trying to quote a Byelaw in order to collect under false pretences.

 

I think you guys are missing the point here being so cynical of typical parking companies.

 

It clearly specifies magistrates court, not a civil court. You have also failed to notice who has issued the final warning. You will notice it is not the parking company.

 

It is the genuine SouthEastern trains prosecutions unit address on the letter. The same address used to successfully prosecute fare evaders and other byelaw offences. Meteor have passed this on to SouthEastern's Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Unit.

 

The letter has come from the TOC, not the parking company.

 

It states the offence

 

"parked in an unauthorised area at Ashford B Railway station car park"

 

Which is contrary to Byelaw 14.

 

I'm sorry, but everybody on this forum is failing to see the severity of this. You are no longer dealing with a PPC, it is the bona fida Prosecutions Unit from SouthEastern dealing with this now.

 

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that the OP did breach the railway bye-laws, and subsequently committed a punishable criminal offence. You can't just ignore that fact. It is a crime and the advice should NEVER be to ignore these letters, as it has now gone out of the hands of the PPC.

 

I would personally write to them and clarify

 

You (should!!) along with a summons, will get to see the MG11 statements completed by whoever issued the parking ticket, possibly/usually with photographic evidence, "exhibits" and CCTV.

 

Meteor are definitely no longer part of this, (other than you could order a witness summons for their staff to attend court).

[Conniff]

This has all the hallmarks of a sc@m, a vexatious claim, using the law for betterment.

 

"Ah" said the policeman, "you give me 50 smackers and I won't give you a ticket",

"you ain't getting any money out of me' said the driver "

"in that case here's a ticket"

 

I don't see any difference in the above senario than in this thread.

[Sidewinder]

Absolutely. Two bites of the cherry - PPC issues a ticket under the guise of a civil contract, motorist doesn't pay so the PPC uses the threat of a magistrates summons to persuade the motorist that he MUST pay.

 

As far as I am aware that is not lawful. It is either a civil matter of contract (referred to in the original PCN) OR it is a matter of a breach of the Byelaw. Neither Meteor nor South Eastern can change the authority under which the ticket has been issued as it suits them.

[gezzer123]

so what is my option should i goto court and argue it out like i say i did have a weeks car park ticket which was bought the day before, there was no spaces left and i cannot see how they can sell a large amount of tickets without the space provided and then prosecute people