Instant Dismissal of Apprentice. Advice needed - ** WON AT TRIBUNAL **

[peterchambers]

I need any advice I can get. My 17 year old granddaughter has been an apprentice with a firm for 18 months and attended one day per week at a further education college for training. One day at the college she was told by staff that the employer had phoned and said that G'daughter was not to return to the workplace. No reason given. G'daughter has had no warnings or expression of concern re her work either at college or work.

 

G'daughter spoke to management on the phone the next day and was told that the reasons for dismissal would be sent in writing and would not be given over phone. G'daughter has also sent written request for reason for dismissal by recorded delivery but has not heard anything three weeks later.

 

G'daughter had i/v at college re this but staff refused to discuss "anything work related" and would not even tell her what her employment status was. College said that they had no complaints about G'daughter. They advised her not to pursue this matter.

 

G'daughter does not seem to have contract of employment/apprenticeship but has a piece of paper with the agreed wages on it which are £2.60 per hour which is the Apprentice Minimum wage. She was told by college and employer that she was to be an apprentice at the outset.

 

ACAS have agreed to dialogue with G'daughter once employer has had reasonable time to respond to request for reason for instant dismissal.

 

I am concerned that the employer may be acting illegally and has placed G'daughter in v. diff. position re pursuit of new employment and also that the college is failing in its duty of care towards her - to put it mildly.

 

Can anyone comment on how the employer and college are behaving re this matter. G'daughter cannot think of anything that could have precipitated such action against her.

Edited January 30, 2012 by peterchambers

[becky2585]

The basic position is that it's very difficult to dismiss an apprentice. They could be liable for unfair dismissal and wages for the duration of the apprenticeship. In short, this could be a very expensive mistake for her former employer... It may be worth looking at the Employment Tribunal.

[jacketpotato]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought apprentices are on fixed term contracts. Getting rid of an apprentice before the expiry of a fixed term contract is a simple breach of contract, known as "wrongful dismissal" in the employment context. Your daughter would have to be guilty of serious misconduct to justify an early termination. In a wrongful dismissal case one would normally be entitled to outstanding wages plus any ancillary costs (e.g. costs of finding a new job), but you do have to try and mitigate the loss (i.e. by searching for a new apprenticeship, so you can't claim for outstanding wages once you are getting paid by the new employer).

 

I'm not sure if apprentices qualify for unfair dismissal rights if they are dismissed mid-way through a contract. Your daughter has met the minimum 18-month qualifying period, but I wouldn't be surprised if apprentices are excluded from unfair dismissal rights.

 

I wouldn't get too upset just yet. Neither the college or the employer have covered themselves in glory, but it may simpye be that the employer has decided that it does not need an apprentice anymore through no fault of your granddaughter, and rather insensitively decided to speak to the college rather than your daughter directly. Wait and see what the written reasons say.

 

Best of luck

[becky2585]

Apprentices absolutely can claim unfair dismissal and breach of contract. It is not open to her employer merely to not want or need her anymore; the fact is, they are tied in until the end of her contract. Apprentices have a far greater degree of protection than run of the mill employees, which means that situations such as redundancy dismissals generally cannot apply.

 

The reason behind this, at common law at least, is the trade off of having cheap labour at 2.60 per hour, but being unable to dismiss them.

[mariefab]

I suggest that she send another letter (recorded again and keeping a copy) stating;

What was said by the college staff, giving names, dates, times etc.

Repeating the phone call to her employer, again who she spoke to and when.

Reminding them that she already sent a request for written reasons for her dismissal (check on track&trace and point out when it was received).

Stating that she now repeats that request and setting a time limit.

 

(If she's feeling assertive she could bring to their attention that they've already breached Employment Rights Act 1996 s.92 by simply failing to respond within 14 days. If she ends up going the tribunal route this would award two weeks pay if she claimed unfair dismissal.)

 

Some info below:

 

http://www.anapprenticeship.co.uk/sack-apprentice.html

[peterchambers]

Thank you all for your very helpful replies. G'daughter thinks that from past experience of this firm they will simply not respond and hope she will not pursue it. Will suggest to her that she writes another letter. She is now speaking to ACAS but they are feeling it is too early to act. Strange thing is G'daughter has not been told her work is unsatis and cannot think of anything that she has done wrong. We are complaining to the college authorities as their behaviour seems unacceptable and shows no duty of care at all.

[mariefab]

Has the college told her that she can't continue her college studies?

[peterchambers]

The college has said that she could still attend but I am presently not sure on what basis. However, without the income from the apprenticeship she could not afford to. Especially as there is no longer any EMA available. She has been looking for another apprenticeship and also ANY job but so far without success.

[mariefab]

I just wondered why you are complaining to the college authorities, unless it's because they advised her not to persue them matter. It could be that they simply didn't know how she should go about it and they may genuinely not know her employment status because, although they can be certain that they are not the employer, both the statutory and case law on this subject is complicated and uncertain.

 

It might be an idea to apply to the college to see if they can provide a copy of an apprenticeship agreement, it's possible that one exists even though your Granddaughter doesn't have a copy.

[peterchambers]

G'daughter has withdrawn consent to a complaint to college for fear it could prejudice any future return there. Complaint would have been because the college arranged the apprenticeship. The tutor told her whilst she was at the college that the company had phoned to say she was not to return to the company. The tutor did not know why. The tutor would not answer her questions over the phone on the basis that he could not verify who she was. He emailed to say that he wished to help re this if she came into college to speak to him face to face. On the day she went by appt. he would not answer any questions as to why she had been sacked save that it was nothing to do with her performance at college, would not say what her employment status was, nor what type of apprenticeship, nor provide a copy of the agreement. He told her that he could not discuss anything to do with a work placement.

 

G' daughter and her family very puzzled about the refusal of all parties to provide any information as to why the dismissal has happened and the college neither being concerned to try to negotiate on her behalf nor feeling able to tell her why she has been dismissed.

 

(G'daughter would return to college to pursue the same subject on full time basis but has no source of income. I am pursuing this.)

[mariefab]

It would probably be worth sending a written request to the college for any apprenticeship agreement/contract/whatever.

After all, it's unlikely that it was simply arranged during a 3 way conversation. There must surely be some documentation involved and every little helps.

 

For example, your Granddaughter has a piece of paper saying that her pay was £2.60 an hour. This confirms an apprenticeship, as otherwise the employer would be in breach of the National Minimum Wage.

[mariefab]

Is she happy to wait another week or two and see if her employer responds?

Or, do you think that she's annoyed enough to send her employer a 'letter before action' yet?

Because focusing her employer's mind on the potential legal and financial consequences of continuing to ignore her might be appropriate.

 

She's an apprentice, employee or worker and regardless of her status unfairly dismissing her without notice or procedures, by sending the message through the college, could well be an expensive mistake.

[peterchambers]

We are sending another letter to the company as was suggested above and if there is no reply to that then ACAS will be asked to intervene. This company is known to ignore creditors etc until legal action is taken. They have not paid G'daughter for her last week at work. Her annoyance is actually a deep feeling of injustice. She is not interested in suing for financial recompense, just fair treatment.

[becky2585]

She may need to sue for the arrears of wages, whilst she's at it she might as well claim everything else she's owed too - compensation for unfair dismissal, accrued but untaken holiday pay, breach of contract to name a few of her potential claims...

[Gbarbm]

I Agree with Becky's advice Peter. Some of these organisations (who quite frankly should know better) treat these kids like rubbish because they think that they can get it!

[Bigredbus]

Hi,

 

Insofar as employment law is concerned, it is right to say that apprenticeship agreements cannot be terminated by the employer except for grave misconduct...

 

In the absence of a written agreement, the true relationship is established by the conduct of the parties. In few words an apprenticeship is an agreement whereby the apprentice binds himself to his employer in order to learn a trade, and the employer on his part agrees to teach and instruct him...

[peterchambers]

Just want to say thank you for all the advice. We finally ended up in a Tribunal and G'daughter was awarded just over £7,000 for loss of earnings and wages due for the rest of the apprenticeship contract. We were able to prove that she was on and Apprenticeship contract without and actual written contract of employment. Norton Motorcycles did not respond to any of the Court Directions nor did they attend the final hearing.

 

The Judge said that he was unable to order that Norton Motorcycles provide a written reason for G'daughter's dismissal and that we would have to go to County Court for that. This was contrary to previous advice they had given.

 

Interestingly the Citizen's Advice Bureau said they could not get involved, nor advise me in any way, as as another agency - ACAS - was already involved. The only advice we could get was from this forum, for which I thank everyone.

[becky2585]

That's excellent news! Let's hope they pay up.

[Surfer01]

I wonder if there is any relationship to this thread? http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?313658-Norton-motorcycles-warning&highlight=norton

[peterchambers]

Same company but the dismissal was nothing to do with the issues on the other thread.

[Surfer01]

Same company but the dismissal was nothing to do with the issues on the other thread.

Probably is as they have had to refund people leaving no funds to pay staff so dismissed young lady?

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Thank you so much for letting us know the outcome and well done for persisting. I'll amend the thread title.

 

My best, HB

[Gbarbm]

Excellent news! Really pleased for your grandaughter; what a valuable lesson she has learned, which is, stand up for your rights when an employer bullies you.