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    • Thanks for your help. I've redacted the PNC number and I've re-uploaded here. I'll see if I can get out there to photograph the signs, but this may be tricky due as its not that close baby schedules don't afford me alot of free time. UKCPS NTK udated.pdf
    • hi ya can you pop the NTD up as a PDF please Read upload Carefully. you'd left the barcodes showing which can be read remove those and pop it up as a PDF   dx  
    • can you please answer my question?   dx
    • Hi all. I've attached what was my first letter from Smart, didn't get an NTK in the first place. Emailed in from this asking for more details, no admission of driver etc. Didn't get a satisfactory response so ignored everything up to the recent shoddy LBC   See below:   1 The date of infringement? 29th October 2019   2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] Only asked for more details via website as NTK wasn't received and informed Smart that multiple drivers have access to car and 2 drivers use same carpark.   if you have then please post up whatever you sent and how you sent it and the date you sent it, suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]   has there been a response? Short letter saying that as 'per the BPA code of practice appeals must be submitted before 28 days' however it wasn't an appeal, just a request for more information   please post it up as well, suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]   If you haven't appealed yet - ,.........DONT ! seek advice on your topic first.   have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days] NO   what date is on it NA   Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? Probably, but don't know   [scan up BOTHSIDES to ONE PDF of the PCN and your NTK - follow the upload guide]   3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?] NA   4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK, did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process? [it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances] NA   5 Who is the parking company? Smart   6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Goose Green, Altrincham  
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First Capital Connect intention to prosecute ( Help i'm scared!)


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Hi there,

 

I am very worried about the situation i may be in. Last week i was travelling from cambridge to Kings cross and i bought a ticket for a return with a 16-25 railcard.

 

At the time i did not check , but my rail card was out of date on Oct 30. I only realised that the railcard was invalid at the time when the inspector asked for my ticket. I understood my mistake but did not have enough money to pay for the ticket at the time.

 

So i was issued with a caution. I answered all questions without hesitation. The only thing at the end was that i asked for the railcard back and he would not give it to me, i said surely he was not aloud to keep my property but then he said that it is the rails property so i let him keep it.

 

I have now received an intention to prosecute and i am so scared, i don not want a criminal record, i am only 21 i have never been in trouble with the law i am very worried. If charged will i defiantly get a criminal record or will i just have to pay the costs?

 

Please help!!

Edited by citizenB
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Someone will be along to answer your questions soon - meanwhile have a read round the forum, I am sure you will find others have been in this same situation.

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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What offence are they charging you with, Yes all tickets, railcards remain property of the railway at all times.

 

Hi there, they are charging me with Offence ,entering a train for the purpose of traveling without a ticket entitling travel.

 

But I didn't intentionally travel without a valid ticket? I answered in the questions they asked me that I didn't know my railcard was invalid

Thanks so much

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Do you have to show your railcard at the ticket office when you purchase a ticket ?

 

If so, why didnt the ticket office notice the rail card was invalid ?

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hello there.

 

The industry guys should be along to tell you more, but I think the problem is that you bought a discounted ticket when you weren't entitled to, because you didn't have a valid card.

 

CitizenB's point about the ticket office checking your card was discussed the other day on another thread, but the guys were very sceptical about it as I recall. Apparently the expiry date is in quite large font on the front of the travelcard?

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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HB is correct on the railcard, unfortunately as your railcard was out of date this in turn invalidated your ticket, thus being not able to produce a valid ticket, it remains a passengers responsibility to ensure their railcard is in date and clearly marked as valid.

 

Your best step now is to write to the TOC with regards to the issue to see if this issue can be resolved with out the use of courts, there is some letter templates on various threads which may be helpful to you. Please remember though that they are not obliged to accept your offer on the issue.

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I just feel so silly because if i had realised the railcard was out of date then i would have purchased a full price ticket. I feel so stupid! Do you think if i write a very apologetic letter and offer to pay all the costs that they will still want to take me to court? I am a university student and am meant to be working in New York next year , if i get a criminal offence i will not be able to travel there!

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Do you have to show your railcard at the ticket office when you purchase a ticket ?

 

If so, why didnt the ticket office notice the rail card was invalid ?

 

No, rail staff at a booking office are not obliged to see the card, but the traveller who claims to hold one is obliged to check that the railcard is valid and in date before attempting to use it.

 

The Conditions of Issue & Use make clear that the traveller who is claiming a discount must show a valid railcard along with their ticket when asked and if they fail to do so, they will be treated as if no ticket is held. These T&Cs are accepted at the time of application and purchase of the railcard.

 

I just feel so silly because if i had realised the railcard was out of date then i would have purchased a full price ticket. I feel so stupid! Do you think if i write a very apologetic letter and offer to pay all the costs that they will still want to take me to court? I am a university student and am meant to be working in New York next year , if i get a criminal offence i will not be able to travel there!

 

Yes, writing an apology for the 'uncharacteristic lack of attention to detail, causing extra work for the company & staff concerned' and offering to pay the fare and their reasonable costs is a good idea. Ask if they will be prepared to accept this as a suitable settlement and undertake not to travel without a valid ticket in future.

 

There are no guarantees, but it is always worth trying.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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Although no one can say they will accept your offer, you stand a better chance than say someone who has any previous history on the railways, As I noted earlier there are some good templates around on threads which you can alter to suit you position, you stand a chance, just keep it short and sweet, you have right up to the day of court, when is your court date due?

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I have done these templates for a number of scenarios, but one think is very important. Always use your own words to convey the same meaning.

 

I can say from very long experience, that when a pile of identical letters fall on a prosecutors desk, some of the 'sympathetic' consideration may well be lost.

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hmmm 30 October? not like it is only just out of date! advice so far here is spot on, your only chance is to hope that they will settle out of court.

Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

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  • 2 months later...

:-)If you are being prosecuted under S 18(2) of the Railway Byelaws, see if FCC had a notice outside the station you travelled from advising you about their penalty fares. If so, you can argue that the notice about penalty fares is a list of contract terms for ticketless travel and having this notice permits ticketless travel, and complies with 18(3)ii of the Railway Byelaws:

No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

Even if there was not a notice outside the station, the information First Capital Connect have on the internet may for purposes of law, constitute 'a notice at the station where he began his journey'

Edited by notlob
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:-)If you are being prosecuted under S 18(2) of the Railway Byelaws, see if FCC had a notice outside the station you travelled from advising you about their penalty fares. If so, you can argue that the notice about penalty fares is a list of contract terms for ticketless travel and having this notice permits ticketless travel, and complies with 18(3)ii of the Railway Byelaws:

No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

 

Even if there was not a notice outside the station, the information First Capital Connect have on the internet may for purposes of law, constitute 'a notice at the station where he began his journey'

 

I'm afraid that has been tried before.....unsuccessfully

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Old-CodJA - difficult to see why FCC would argue penalty fares are not contract terms for ticketless travel. If this arguement is followed we know what penalty fares are not, but it is unclear what they are. If what FCC are doing is capriciously demanding monies from ticketless passengers who have clearly committed a strict-liability offence in exchange for not prosecuting, it sounds like extortion - or at least a corrupt practice.

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Penalty Fares are one of a range of revenue protection & control tools. I have experience of this from the beginning when the British Rail Penalty Fares Act was introduced in 1989 - let me also say, I've never been a fan, because the discretionary nature of the PF leads to even more inconsistent application than is evident under the Byelaws.

 

Penalty Fares do NOT over-rule the Railway Byelaws and legislations such as RRA (1889) - It is always the travellers responsibility to pay the fare before travelling where pre-purchase facilities exist.

 

My understanding is that the TOCs should not be demanding money, and as far as I know they are not making demands, but if a traveller (who has been reported) offers, or asks to be allowed to make payment to avoid prosecution, there is absolutely no reason why they should not accept it, although they are not obliged to.

 

The Home Office guidelines to prosecutors positively encourage 'alternative disposals' for some first time cases of minor offending and it might be said that breach of Byelaw may well fit that description.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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@Old-CodJA - difficult to see why FCC would argue penalty fares are not contract terms for ticketless travel. If this arguement is followed we know what penalty fares are not, but it is unclear what they are. If what FCC are doing is capriciously demanding monies from ticketless passengers who have clearly committed a strict-liability offence in exchange for not prosecuting, it sounds like extortion - or at least a corrupt practice.

 

You'll need to complain to the DfT as they are the ones who insist that some train operators have Penalty Fare Schemes as part of their franchise.

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