Am I right in believing this sign is Not a Permitted Variant ?

[MadMike]

After getting up in the early hours of the morning and driving for over 8 hours across Britain to pick my Brother-in-Law up from an International flight and then onto and through London, I was shattered and desperately looking for a place to park up for the rest of the day. I had a chest and sinus infection plus a stinking cold, so I did not want to go to London but the plans had been made months before, he had never been to London and only speaks a little English and he had come to watch his favourite English team play an International match.

 

At no time was I out of sight of the car for more than a few seconds but I did not notice anyone prowling around it or taking photos. I did not notice the parking ticket till after I returned to the Stadium after a fruitless search after following the suggestions the staff had given me.

 

On the Parking Sign post I had noticed a little sign earlier, below the restrictions sign, giving a telephone number for the football club where match information was obtainable. It was when I walked around the car to get the number that I first noticed the Parking Ticket. It was tucked down below dashboard level so could not be seen from inside the car. I asked my Brother-in-Law if he had seen it, he said yes and that he had thought I had seen it being put there. He thought it was just a leaflet and had not bothered to mention it.

 

The Challenge letter that I sent gives a lot more information:-

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I wish to challenge the Penalty Charge for the following reasons: -

 

I was not parked; in fact after searching the surrounding area unsuccessfully for a long term parking facility, either a bay or car park, I had not seen any Policemen or anybody that I could recognise as able to assist me in finding parking facilities. As (unusually) there are no signs in the area directing vehicles to parking facilities I had stopped to ask for directions to one or the other at the XXXXX Football Stadium. I had no intention of parking, merely to find parking facilities locally. The car contained on the back seat and behind the front seats a laptop (in its case), other bags and valuables, I certainly would not park a car and leave those items in full view. I was never out of sight of the car for more than a few seconds whilst seeking this information.

 

The sign on the Parking Bay to me seemed ambiguous, it had a blue P for parking (none of the other signs that I could see in the area had the blue P), with Mon - Fri 10am – 2pm which seemed to indicate parking was allowed between these times, then there was a gap, then Resident permit holders only IS-G (I have no idea what this means), then a line then 9 more lines of information some of which seemed contradictory, and certainly confusing, I read the sign at least a dozen times and said to my brother-in-law that my best interpretation is that parking is allowed between 10am and 2pm but as we needed to park up till after the game we needed to find a better solution. With this in mind I felt safe in trying to find parking information from the XXXXX staff.

 

I had travelled from XXXXX to XXXXX Airport to pick up my brother-in-law, who had flown from XXXXX to watch his favourite football team play a Home International match. As such I had most of his luggage in the boot and some on the back seat. He had only been to the UK once before and that was to watch his team play away to XXXXX earlier this year. On that occasion local Civil Enforcement Officers and Police assisted me in finding a long term parking place opposite the Stadium.

 

I am 64 years old and try comply with motoring and civil law as much as is humanly possible, I have never had a valid parking ticket in my life despite being a driver since before they were created. I have had no points on my licence since I was a youngster. I try my hardest to live within the law and regulations and most certainly did not feel that I was breaking any laws or regulations or taking any risks by trying to find somewhere to park by the only means possible, i.e. asking the most probable people available that might know the answers.

 

Incidentally, I telephoned the staff on the number given on the ticket, I was unable to find out from them any information on what was and was not allowed in relation to the parking bay and or remaining parked once the ticket was issued (i.e. whether as a ticket had been issued that the car could remain there without further penalty), because of this after a further 2 hours of trying to find somewhere to park locally I drove to West London and parked on a 10 hour meter.

 

We then had to travel back to XXXXX by Underground carrying all the valuables with us, as we did not dare leave them in the car. Once I had got him back to the Stadium (by then gone 6pm) I then had to carry the valuables back to the car on the Underground on my own. I then had to travel back to XXXXX in the car to pick him up after the match. This made the whole day that should have been enjoyable for both of us, a nightmare hopefully to be forgotten.

 

Finally, it does appear that the confusion as to my interpretation of the wording of the sign could be because the sign does not appear to be as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Yours sincerely

Their reply was :-

 

 

They replied to:- the sign does not appear to be as prescribed by the regulations with “The time plate does meet statutory requirements….” I believe even if “the time plate” is ok, it is only part of a sign and the whole sign has to comply.

 

To me the sign seemed confusing because of the layout at the time I was there, now I can see its intended purpose, but I was exhausted, also the sign was very high up (well over 3 metres high) which did not help.

 

 

To me after studying The Traffic Sign Manual the sign both top and bottom parts are not Permitted Variants of Diagrams.

A Re the top part of the sign :- On all permitted variants of Diagrams for Permit Holder Parking (see Diagram 660 and variants) the sign is either exclusively for Permit Holders only, or the Restriction is placed first with the Restriction times below, or there is a dividing line in-between the sections. This sign is completely the opposite.

 

B Re the lower part of the sign The Traffic Sign Manual states :-

7.41 Roads in the vicinity of a football stadium or similar venue might need parking controls on match days to reserve road space for resident permit holders. Signs for the prohibition of waiting and those that indicate parking conditions will normally make reference to “Match days” or “Event days” and will require authorisation. Additional signs are used to indicate the date of the next match or event. In certain areas, the signs described in para 7.15 might be appropriate.

 

C There were no signs on the post or anywhere in the entire area indicating that there was a match !

 

Can anyone really knowledgeable about signs and procedures please comment, good or bad.

 

Thanks

Edited January 25, 2012 by MadMike
Update

[green_and_mean]

cannot read the sign

[MadMike]

Hi green_and_mean,

 

Please try again, I have updated the photo

[Scooby Doo69]

Depends if it's a designated Highway or not. If it is then there will be a local contravention order in place. Contact the local Council and ask them for a copy of the Local Contravention Order in. May cost you money to get a copy though.

[Ganymede]

You stopped your car and got out and went for a walk around, how is that not parking?

 

My nan lives near Anfield and they have similar match day parking restrictions in place, you can park there any day between 10 and 2 unless it is a match day when the other restrictions apply. Seems quite clear.

[Jamberson]

ask them for a copy of the Local Contravention Order

 

What's one of those???

[The Slithy Tove]

My nan lives near Anfield and they have similar match day parking restrictions in place, you can park there any day between 10 and 2 unless it is a match day when the other restrictions apply. Seems quite clear.

And how are you supposed to know if it's a match day? First, you may have to get out to read the signs and the phone number to call to check. Then, in order not to break the law, you need to phone from a stationary, parked car. Sounds like a catch 22. You have to drive somewhere else you can park in order to phone to see if it's a match day and you can park where you wanted to in the first place (or something).

 

BTW, the OP never said what time of day it was he "parked".

[MadMike]

According to the ticket I was "parked" from 12:35 to 12:39 (so according to them if you work out the minimums & maximums between 3 mins 2 secs and 4 mins 58 secs), I do not know what they use to time "the offence".

[Ganymede]

And how are you supposed to know if it's a match day? First, you may have to get out to read the signs and the phone number to call to check. Then, in order not to break the law, you need to phone from a stationary, parked car. Sounds like a catch 22. You have to drive somewhere else you can park in order to phone to see if it's a match day and you can park where you wanted to in the first place (or something).

 

BTW, the OP never said what time of day it was he "parked".

 

 

 

True but he did refer to the football stadium and the match so I assumed it was during a restricted time.

[MadMike]

Depends if it's a designated Highway or not. If it is then there will be a local contravention order in place. Contact the local Council and ask them for a copy of the Local Contravention Order in. May cost you money to get a copy though.

 

Hi Scooby Doo69

 

There will have to be an local order in place, that will be a local thing. The road markings and signs have to comply with National regulations (which are contained in The Traffic Sign Manual) as well for the parking place to be legitimate. For those that are interested the part of the manual relating to signs can be downloaded at http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/traffic-signs-manual/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf The complete manual is at http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/traffic-signs-manual/ . The answer to Jamberson's question can also be found in the manual, just do a search within the PDF for Permitted Variant.

Edited January 29, 2012 by MadMike

[Jamberson]

Which PDF, and where? Where does it say there's such a thing as a Local Contravention Order? Does he mean Traffic Regulation Order?

[MadMike]

Hi Jamberson

 

The PDF is here http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publication...chapter-03.pdf as per my last post

[Jamberson]

Great. So where does it mention a Local Contravention Order? It doesn't, does it.

[MadMike]

Great. So where does it mention a Local Contravention Order? It doesn't, does it.

 

Hi again Jamberson,

 

I have not mentioned a a Local Contravention Order and cannot speak on behalf of Scooby Doo69.

 

All direct references I have made have been in regard to Road Signs and Permitted Variants, this is what I thought you were refering to when you said "What's one of those??" in post 6, as the quote in post 6 (from Scooby Doo69) did not show when I viewed my thread until today for some reason.

Edited January 29, 2012 by MadMike

[Jamberson]

I have not mentioned a a Local Contravention Order

 

You wrote in post 10, "The answer to Jamberson's question can also be found in the manual"

 

and my question (post 6) was, what is a Local Contravention Order.

[MadMike]

A quick update, full details to follow, probably over the weekend, ticket has just been cancelled , it sometimes pays to be diligent

[MadMike]

Update on everything that has happened since my initial post :-

 

In due course I recieved the Notice to Owner which I replied to (by recorded delivery) just inside the 28 days from service with (stuff that is a duplicate of the above is in italics) :-

 

2nd February 2012

 

Re PCN NUMBER: xxxxxxxx

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I wish to challenge the Penalty Charge for the following reasons: -

 

I was not parked; in fact after searching the surrounding area unsuccessfully for a long term parking facility, either a bay or car park, I had not seen any Policemen or anybody that I could recognise as able to assist me in finding parking facilities. As (unusually) there are no signs in the area directing vehicles to parking facilities I had stopped to ask for directions to one or the other at the Arsenal Football Stadium. I had no intention of parking, merely to find parking facilities locally. The car contained on the back seat and behind the front seats a laptop (in its case), other bags and valuables; I certainly would not park a car and leave those items in full view. I was never out of sight of the car for more than a few seconds whilst seeking this information.

 

The sign on the Parking Bay to me seemed ambiguous, it had a blue P for parking with Mon - Fri 10am – 2pm which seemed to indicate parking was allowed between these times, then there was a gap, then Resident permit holders only IS-G, then a line then 9 more lines of information. I found the sign confusing as to the information it was meant to portray, I read it at least a dozen times and said to my brother-in-law that my best interpretation is that parking is allowed between 10am and 2pm but as we needed to park up till after the game we needed to find a better solution. With this in mind I felt safe in trying to find parking information from the Arsenal staff.

 

I had travelled from XXXXXX to XXXXX Airport to pick up my brother-in-law, who had flown from XXXXX to watch his favourite football team play a Home International match. He had only been to the UK once before and that was to watch his team play away to XXXXXX earlier this year. On that occasion local Civil Enforcement Officers and Police assisted me in finding a long term parking place opposite the Stadium. I was hoping I would get the same courtesy at this venue, not the complete opposite.

 

I am 64 years old and try comply with motoring and civil law as much as is humanly possible, I have never had a valid parking ticket in my life despite being a driver since before they were created. I have had no points on my licence since I was a youngster. I try my hardest to live within the law and regulations and most certainly did not feel that I was breaking any laws or regulations or taking any risks by trying to find somewhere to park by the only means possible, i.e. asking the most probable people available that might know the answers.

 

Incidentally, I telephoned the staff on the number given on the ticket, I was unable to find out from them any information on what was and was not allowed in relation to the parking bay and or remaining parked once the ticket was issued (i.e. whether as a ticket had been issued that the car could remain there without further penalty), because of this after a further 2 hours of trying to find somewhere to park locally I drove to West London and parked on a 10 hour meter.

 

We then had to travel back to XXXXX by Underground carrying all the valuables with us, as we did not dare leave them in the car. Once I had got him back to the Stadium (by then gone 6pm) I then had to carry the valuables back to the car on the Underground on my own. I then had to travel back to Arsenal in the car to pick him up after the match. This made the whole day that should have been enjoyable for both of us, a nightmare hopefully to be forgotten.

In regard to the Sign

 

It was mounted on a post that was leaning back away from the road, much of it was hidden by leaves so that reading it entailed moving back and forth, the top of the sign is at a height of over 3 metres, I would guess close to 4 metres as my car is over 1.5 metres high and the photograph taken from the front of the car only just shows the plate below the sign, the plate itself being way above the top of my car. The combination of all of these factors makes the sign difficult to read to start with. The photographs supplied support these facts, the photograph of the sign has been taken from an angle and at a distance evidently using zoom on the camera to be able to photograph it over the roof of my car, the only position that a clear photograph could be taken from without the leaves obstructing photography. Unfortunately I could not possibly read the sign from this distance and had to read it through the foliage.

 

I quote from Traffic Signs Manual:- Traffic authorities should always remember that the purpose of regulatory signs is to ensure that drivers clearly understand what restrictions or prohibitions are in force. It does appear that the confusion as to my interpretation of the wording of the sign could be because the sign is not as prescribed by the regulations. If the regulations had been correctly implemented then there would have been no room for confusion as there would have been no ambiguity as to the exact meaning of the sign.

 

Neither the top nor the bottom of parts of the sign are permitted variants. For the top part I draw your attention to in the Permit Parking Regulations, which are from Paragraph 7.10 to Paragraph 7.15 it is quite clear to see that the top part of the sign does not comply. For the bottom part I draw your attention to the Traffic Signs Manual 2008 Paragraph 7.41 Roads in the vicinity of a football stadium or similar venue might need parking controls on match days to reserve road space for resident permit holders. Signs for the prohibition of waiting and those that indicate parking conditions will normally make reference to “Match days” or “Event days” and will require authorisation. Additional signs are used to indicate the date of the next match or event. There were no additional signs anywhere in the vicinity of the Stadium.

 

Incidentally the whole sign must be as prescribed, any non prescribed part of that sign must be formally authorised in writing: - Paragraph 2.1 All traffic signs placed on a highway or on a road to which the public has access (right of passage in Scotland), as defined in section 142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and amended by the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991, must be either prescribed by Regulations or authorised by the Secretary of State for Transport (for installations in England), the Department for Regional Development (Northern Ireland), the Scottish Executive or the Welsh Assembly Government as appropriate. Care should be taken to ensure that signs are used only as prescribed in the Regulations, and in accordance with any relevant directions, and that no non-prescribed sign is used unless it has been formally authorized in writing. Failure to do so may leave an authority open to litigation, or make a traffic regulation order unenforceable.

 

Please, if this challenge is not accepted, could you supply me by return or within 7 days copies of the authorisation in writing by the Secretary of State for Transport for each part of the sign, also a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order that is relevant to this parking bay.

 

I must also state at this point that I have taken legal advice and if this case should proceed to adjudication then I will attend probably with my legal advisor and will likely be seeking costs for us both should I be successful, i.e. the cost of my travelling from XXXXXX and for my time, plus his and costs and charges, this I am advised would probably be granted as I have gone to great lengths to show that I had no intention of breaking any regulations and that I was merely trying to find somewhere to park safely and have pointed out many of the shortcomings that will be used as part of my evidence.

 

Yours sincerely

 

I used the colour to emphasize that part of the letter, they replied with a Charge Certificate for £195 saying basically I had not replied in any way (see attached). I was happy to sit out the time limit of 56 days before contacting them (or the Court if they tried to collect) so that they would be out of time.

 

Then yesterday out of the blue I recieved a letter cancelling the ticket (good job I sent the letter recorded), the reason given had little or nothing to do with my letter, they obviously wanted to avoid admitting that their sign was not a permitted variant as that would have opened flood gates for people wanting their money back. (see attached)

 

So it obviously pays to be diligent, make sure that all signage meets the regulations in every aspect, if it does not you have a good chance of winning through if you persevere. The links to the regs are given in an earlier post.

 

Good luck all