I might have made things worse - UKCPS speculative invoice

[imadeabooboo]

Hi there,

 

I like most people am looking for some advice.

 

Back in December, I parked, very breifly (about half an hour or so) in an off road carpark, so that my disabled mother could pop across to a restaurant over the road and use their toilet. (She's in her 70s, diabetic, has a replacement hip and takes loads of pills for various ailments).

 

Anyway, besides the point - I wasn't familiar with the area I was in, so in her time of need I turned off the main road into a side street, and there were some parking spaces near some flats. There were some notices saying residents only, permit holders only - but I figured this was a quick emergency - no harm, no foul. I even checked the car when we returned - no ticket, no worries.

 

However, a few days ago I recieved one of UKCPs "We want your money" letters. Apparently, they had given me a ticket, which had not been paid, and now as a result they want me to pay £90. Now there is a photo of my car on their website with a ticket on the window - and I appreciate all that proves is the ticket was there when the photo was taken.

 

The problem is, that I was so flustered by this letter, and angry - that I failed to think straight. Instead of looking online and finding this place first, I foolishly followed their appeal proceedure to plead my case. Mainly that it was an emergency, in an empty car park, and there was no ticket when I returned to the car (to which I have a witness).

 

The problem now, as I understand it, is by following their appeal proceedure, I have revealed myself as the driver, and have practically admitted that I know I wasn't supposed to park there.

 

Where do I stand?

 

As far as going to court (if it ever got that far) I'm currently unemployed due to being made redundant - and I'm an un-discharged bankrupt. Would they ever get a penny out of me?

 

Thanks

[BankFodder]

Well you were certainly wrong to engage in their procedure.

 

However, from now on you should not bother respond any more - although you will have triggered them off to pursue you even harder than they might otherwise.

 

The best they can ask you to pay is a sum which is calculated to cover their administrative expenses.

 

Read the Parking Eye case on the CAGMag

[imadeabooboo]

On a side note, although they have photographs of my car, not one of them shows that the car is parked illegally. They don't show any signs or parking restrictions. Although I had said I know I probably shouldn't have parked there, I never admitted to seeing any such signs.

[ManxRed]

The car isn't parked illegally, you have broken no laws. They are inviting you to pay an invoice for breaching a contract - the contract being the signs they would have displayed at the site. This means a couple of things: If there were no signs visible then there wasn't a contract formed and you haven't breached anything anyway. Even if you did see the signs and breached the contract then under contract law they can only pursue the driver for their actual losses only, not some arbitrary £90 sum they've dreamt up. Maybe a few quid admin fees, tops. The only other recourse for them is to treat it as trespass (i.e. NO PARKING!!!), and for this they can pursue the driver for nominal damages only (a couple of quid?). Either way, their pursuit of you for £90 is tosh and wouldn't last five minutes in a court. Either way, the photo is irrelevant unless they plan to sue your car.

[imadeabooboo]

I also find it very odd that the ticket wasn't on my window when we went back to the car. It's not as if we were away from it for more than 15 minutes after the ticket had been issued. And while it was a very wet and windy day, are these people beyond taking their photo as evidence, then removing the ticket, knowing it will cause you to default to the full amount (should you be dumb enough to pay?). I certainly didn't see a ticket anywhere near the car. And with the exception of the possibilty that a local scallywag took it off, I think it's a bit of a gimmick to try and get more money out of people.

[Jamberson]

Don't worry about it. Just sit back and let them chase their tails until they give up.

[ManxRed]

Its a deliberate ploy to make sure you pay the full whack. Other ploys include sending threatening legal letters pre dated so that when you get them you panic into thinking you're too late to stop legal proceedings and you beg them to accept your payment. They're not thick, they have many tricks to fool people into paying as much as possible. However you now know that legally they don't have much of a leg to stand on, so you should just ignore them from now on. Don't forget to look out for that post-dated letter though, and have a laugh when it does.

[Scooby Doo69]

Remember ONLY Police or similar have the legal power to give parking tickets. You can't get a ticket on private property with a local contravention order being in place. This isn't a parking ticket, but an invoice for monies. Anyone can raise an invoice claiming monies for anything. They are clever and disguise letters to look like fines.So, why do they do it? Cos more often then not people think they are dealing with a legitimate parking ticket and pay up. If it wasn't profitable then they wouldn't do it...

[DBC]

Any UKCPS thread comes with the usual "health warning" regarding the information you disclose on here. The "office manager" of that parking company trawls these forums trying to find information which might further UKCPS's "cause". So be careful what you say, and beware of any private messages you might receive. It could be him on a "fishing" expedition.

[imadeabooboo]

Thanks DBC, I had been looking around and already seen that pointer elsewhere. Well, they won't be getting anything from me. Might just get all their junk returned to sender!

[dx100uk]

nothing 'illegal' about it anyhow.

 

its not a criminal offence

its not even a civil matter...

 

it a bit of paper that is a 'speculative invoice'.

 

the ONLY tickets you EVERneed to pay are those that say:

 

[AND ONLY THESE THREE EXACT WORDS]

 

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE

 

dx

[imadeabooboo]

Thanks for all the advice so far. Just to make it clear - I completely understand that this is not a "legit" parking "fine" - and I know it's a flimsy speculative business invoice. My concern was just that by appealing and confirming myself as the driver, I have put myself in a weaker position should it ever get to a civil court. But I'm happy for them to try and take me to one.

[Jamberson]

In what way are you in a weaker position? It's still not valid, they still can't make you pay, and you still don't owe them anything. Go into court with a T-shirt saying "I was the driver" and they still can't make you pay it!

[ManxRed]

Yes, the 'knowing who the driver is' issue is only one hurdle they need to overcome. There are plenty of others too!

[imadeabooboo]

Well thank you guys so much. It's just reassuring to know. I'll file any further letters they send, and they can go take a running, jumping one!

[Al27]

As contractual breaches potentially go, it sounds like a de minimis case anyway.

[imadeabooboo]

Well, as expected I've recieved a couple of letter from UKCPS, including all the red wording and final notice BS. Today, as predicted I recieved a letter from Debt Recovery Plus Ltd - and saying the outstanding payment has now gone up to £150.

 

I just wanted to ask, as I have seen some conflicting advice on this forum. Some suggest contacting this Debt Recovery agent and deffering the alledged debt back to the PPC, as it is in dispute. Others advise to Keep Calm and Carry On Ignoring the little insects.

 

Please advise the best course of action.

 

Thanks

[Scooby Doo69]

Well, as expected I've recieved a couple of letter from UKCPS, including all the red wording and final notice BS. Today, as predicted I recieved a letter from Debt Recovery Plus Ltd - and saying the outstanding payment has now gone up to £150.

 

I just wanted to ask, as I have seen some conflicting advice on this forum. Some suggest contacting this Debt Recovery agent and deffering the alledged debt back to the PPC, as it is in dispute. Others advise to Keep Calm and Carry On Ignoring the little insects.

 

Please advise the best course of action.

 

Thanks

 

Everyone has their own opinion on this.

 

Some say to ignore and carry on receiving letters and probably phone calls and eventually on the balance of probability they will go away.

 

Others prefer to engage them.

 

Personally I've wrote them a single time telling them to get stuffed, invoicing them for wasting my time and advising them that any correspondance will be returned at their own costs.

 

I've then gone on to return undelivered everything they have sent me.

 

It's no more than a civil claim for monies based upon the civil tort of trespass.

 

They are chancers basing on the probability that the vast majority will pay up thinking it's an official parking charge.

 

They are in it for the money nothing else.

 

Whether you reply or ignore is purely down to yourself.

[dx100uk]

Well, as expected I've recieved a couple of letter from UKCPS, including all the red wording and final notice BS. Today, as predicted I recieved a letter from Debt Recovery Plus Ltd - and saying the outstanding payment has now gone up to £150.

 

I just wanted to ask, as I have seen some conflicting advice on this forum. Some suggest contacting this Debt Recovery agent and deffering the alledged debt back to the PPC, as it is in dispute. Others advise to Keep Calm and Carry On Ignoring the little insects.

 

Please advise the best course of action.

 

Thanks

 

 

cag's line is to ignore

 

end of!

 

dx

[Jamberson]

It's great news that you've received these latest letters. It means the process is going exactly as predicted, they haven't done anything to you and they are following the usual pointless paper trail. Great. Not long to go now before they give up.

[DBC]

So UKCPS are now using Debt Recovery Plus. They used to use their own "in-house" debt company called "Court Proceedings Ltd" I wonder why the change?

[imadeabooboo]

Maybe they ran out of letter head, and don't have enough funds to send out their junk mail and get more printed.

[imadeabooboo]

The wording of the letter is as follows, for your own ammusement (personal details ommited);

 

Dear Mr.....

 

We act on behalf of UK Parking Control LTD

 

Our client has written to you previously explaining that your vehicle was parked in breach of the agreed terms and conditions regarding parking on their client's private land. As payment has not been received our client has instructed us to recover the above monies from you as the driver at the time the vehicle was parked.

 

It is essential that payment is made to us within 7 days of the date of this letter. If you are having difficulty in making the payment then please contact our officer on (0844 number) to discuss your proposal for payment.

 

We are a member of the British Parking Association (BPA) and its Approved Operator Scheme and we adhere to its code of practice. As the registered keeper it is important that you inform us immediately if you have sold/hired the car. If you were not the driver, please provide us with the name and address of the person who was driving the vehicle at the relevant time. This is important so that we can avoid pursuing the wrong person.

 

The BPA code of practice states that "the courts do not look favourably on motorists or consumers who try to withhold information from operators when it has been asked for with genuine, reasonable and proper cause". Accordingly, if we do not receive full payment or contact from you with your proposal for payment, this matter may be passed to our solicitor to commend County Court proceedings.

[DBC]

So you have been talking about UK Parking Patrol and not UKCPS who are a separate company. Could the mods change the title please?

[Scooby Doo69]

The wording of the letter is as follows, for your own ammusement (personal details ommited);

 

Dear Mr.....

 

We act on behalf of UK Parking Control LTD

 

Our client has written to you previously explaining that your vehicle was parked in breach of the agreed terms and conditions regarding parking on their client's private land. As payment has not been received our client has instructed us to recover the above monies from you as the driver at the time the vehicle was parked.

 

It is essential that payment is made to us within 7 days of the date of this letter. If you are having difficulty in making the payment then please contact our officer on (0844 number) to discuss your proposal for payment.

 

We are a member of the British Parking Association (BPA) and its Approved Operator Scheme and we adhere to its code of practice. As the registered keeper it is important that you inform us immediately if you have sold/hired the car. If you were not the driver, please provide us with the name and address of the person who was driving the vehicle at the relevant time. This is important so that we can avoid pursuing the wrong person.

 

The BPA code of practice states that "the courts do not look favourably on motorists or consumers who try to withhold information from operators when it has been asked for with genuine, reasonable and proper cause". Accordingly, if we do not receive full payment or contact from you with your proposal for payment, this matter may be passed to our solicitor to commend County Court proceedings.

 

More gutless threats then. Note the careful use of the word MAY. I MAY win the lottery at the Weekend. I MAY run naked up and down the street outside my house LOLIt's all complete b*llocks and you are under no obligation to give out any information without a Court Summons. That isn't going to happen though as they have to prove who was driving at the time, that they understood that they understood the T&Cs of parking there and there was an act of trespass so bad that they remedies demanded match said breach.Write to your local MP and let's get this legal con sorted out once and for all.