False/dodgy MOT **** RESOLVED ****

[Drewmond]

Good evening everyone,

 

I've browsed consumer action group in the past when looking for help on consumer rights and such, and as I found it such a goldmine of excellent advice and insight, I decided to sign up, share a tale of woe and seek some advice:

 

I bought a car last friday, a 2003 alfa romeo 156 turismo. It came with a full years MOT and 6 months tax and I got it at what I thought was an excellent price, however, I fear that I may have bought more than I bargained for. I genuinely believe that it has a very suspect MOT, which was only issued to increase the value of the car. I need some advice on what action I can take, if indeed I can take any at all.

 

The car passed its MOT on 10-01-12, expires 09-01-13. I bought it on 20-01-12. The car had only covered 103 miles from when it passed to me purchasing it. When I was driving it home, I noticed it didn't handle particularly well and I noticed a few clunks when going over bumps etc. I took it out again today (I was away all day yesterday, so didn't have chance to check it out then) and there is definitely something wrong with both the steering and the suspension.

 

After a bit of digging on directgov, I found the car's MOT history and it turns out that it failed an MOT on 23-12-11 (1 month ago), with quite a long list of faults. I've checked over the list and quite a few of the points listed as reasons for failure are still present, despite the vehicle having passed an MOT at a different garage.

 

Here's the history from directgov for the last 2 MOTs (with the names of the garages removed):

 

Date of test:

23/12/2011

Certificate issue refused (Fail)

 

Odometer reading:

154,202 Miles

Test number:

xxxxxxxxxx

Test station name:

Garage 1

Test station number:

*******

Test station telephone number:

*******

Test class:

IV

Reason(s) for refusal to issue Certificate

 

Offside Front Drivers seat insecure (6.2.A.1) **DANGEROUS** (seat doesn't feel loose, but is way off centre and is angled to the left)

 

Nearside Front Front position lamp(s) not working (1.1.A.3b) (still not working)

 

Offside Front Front position lamp(s) not working (1.1.A.3b) (still not working)

 

Nearside Rear Registration plate lamp not working (1.1.C.1d) (still not working)

 

Offside Rear Registration plate lamp not working (1.1.C.1d) (still not working)

 

Offside Front bulb insecure Headlamp aim aimed so that it dazzles other road users (1.8.A.1) (still not aimed correctly)

 

Steering system excessively tight (2.2.D.1) (very stiff to steer, very very stiff at low speeds)

 

Offside Front Front constant velocity joint gaiter split (2.5.C.1a) (haven't inspected this closely but doesn't look like a new part fitted)

 

Nearside Rear Anti-roll bar linkage has excessive play in a ball joint (2.4.G.2) (loud clunks when going over bumps or creating body roll through braking/acceleration)

 

Nearside Front Upper Suspension arm has excessive play in a pin/bush (2.4.G.2) (see above)

 

Nearside Rear Brake pad(s) less than 1.5 mm thick (3.5.1g) (they don't look to have been replaced)

 

Advisory Notice issued

 

Nearside Front Anti-roll bar linkage has slight play in a ball joint (2.4.G.2)

 

Nearside Front inner Anti-roll bar has slight play in a pin/bush (2.4.G.2)

 

Offside Front inner Anti-roll bar has slight play in a pin/bush (2.4.G.2)

 

Nearside Rear Tyre worn close to the legal limit (4.1.E.1)

 

Oil leak

 

--------------------------------------

Date of test:

10/01/2012

Certificate issued (Pass)

 

Odometer reading:

154,316 Miles

Test number:

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Test station name:

Garage 2

Test station number:

*******

Test station telephone number:

*******

Test class:

IV

Test expiry date:

09/01/2013

Advisory Notice issued

 

Nearside Front Suspension arm has slight play in a pin/bush (2.4.G.2) (Apparently part was replaced)

 

Offside Front Suspension arm has slight play in a pin/bush (2.4.G.2) (Apparently part was replaced)

 

Nearside Rear Anti-roll bar has slight play in a pin/bush (2.4.G.2)

 

Nearside Rear Tyre worn close to the legal limit (4.1.E.1) (Apparently part was replaced)

 

 

This completes the test history for the above vehicle as recorded on VOSA's MOT Computerisation Database

 

 

On top of the failures which haven't been repaired, the car does not travel in a straight line and when you try to correct the steering by making a minor adjustment to the steering wheel, the car swerves dangerously in the direction you moved the steering wheel. It looks like I've bought a right lemon! I appreciate that the car has high mileage, but having had experience of the 1.9jtd alfa engines in the past, I had faith that this one has a good few miles left in it... The absolute sole reason I went for this car was because it came with a full 12 months MOT. If it had anything less than that, I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole.

 

To complicate matters even further, I didn't buy the car from the seller directly, I bought it from an auction house. I understand that as far as they are concerned, all sales are final and all cars are sold as seen, so I doubt I will even bother involving them in this issue.

 

My first course of action will be to contact VOSA in the morning and get them to inspect the vehicle to confirm that it has been falsely given an MOT pass, but I don't know what to do from there. Do I contact the previous owner (who entered it for sale) or do I contact the MOT station who issued the dodgy MOT? Will I be entitled to a repair at their expense? A refund? or am I stuck with this lemon of a car?

 

Having bought from auctions in the past, I was aware of the risks involved. I've bought cars before with a few months MOT and whilst most have been absolute diamonds in the rough, one was a total basket case (I scrapped it and cut my losses and took it as a gamble which didn't pay off). I'm reluctant to just cut my losses this time as I am outraged at the fact this car was sent for sale with a full (falsely issued) MOT in the knowledge that someone was going to get stitched up like a kipper. Surely I have some recourse on this should VOSA confirm my suspicions?

 

Thank you for taking the time to read my post

 

Drewmond

Edited January 23, 2012 by MARTIN3030

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

This link may be of help; http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/c_buying_at_auction.pdf

 

Are we sure that the car hasn't been involved in an accident? Did you HPI it?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[Drewmond]

Hi Sailor Sam,

 

Thanks for the welcome.

 

That link pretty much confirms what I said with regards to the auctioneers, in that all their lots are sold as seen. They have fulfilled their obligations and are not liable for this type of issue, which is why I was going to leave them out of it.

 

HPI is completely clear for the car, not outstanding finance, claims or write-offs for the car.

 

As the seller was a private individual and it was a second hand item, the goods do not by law have to be fit for purpose or of satisfactory quality. They do have to be described accurately though and if VOSA say the MOT was false, I'm wondering if that would give me grounds for taking this further. Not only that, mixed in with the paperwork is a receipt for parts that have supposedly been replaced on the day of the MOT. If these parts haven't been replaced, that again could count towards the vehicle not being as described.

[oddjobbob]

I'm pretty sure that unless its due to corrosion then an mot is valid onl at the time of the test and vosa will perhaps put a marker on the garage that did the mot to have a look at them at some point, but I don't thnk they can actually declare the mot to be false (unless due to corrosion)

 

And having bought it from an auction I don't think you have any comeback... pretty sure that the sale of goods act does not apply.

 

TBQH auctions CAN be a good route to buying a car at the right price, but they are mostly intended for the trade.

 

Your best way out might be to re enter it into another auction.

[Drewmond]

Actually VOSA stipulate that they will inspect a vehicle suspected of having a false MOT provided it is within 6months of the pass for corrosion or 28days of the pass for all other problems and they can declare an MOT as false if they believe it was intentionally given a pass to deceive. They won't take any action on my behalf, but they will provide me with evidence to prove the MOT was falsely given... Which would then allow me to take further action. I just don't know who the action would be against.

 

I know the MOT essentially only proves that it was roadworthy on that day and it could be the case that issues have arisen since it passed, but to find a whole list of problems (from VOSA) which the car failed on less than 1 month ago and to find these issues still there 10days after passing another MOT (carried out by a different garage to the first), I would put a fair bit of money on it being dodgy MOT to get the car shifted for a reasonable amount.

 

I could just stick it through another auction, but that would mean knowingly selling an unroadworthy car to another poor victim. It feels depressingly horrible to be on the receiving end of this kind of unscrupulous behaviour, so why would I willingly inflict that upon someone else?

 

I am also aware that auctions are a good way to save money buying cars. I've bought 7 cars so far through auctions over the last 10 years (this one being the 8th). 5 of them were excellent cars, one of them was a typical run it into the ground and scrap it for what I paid for it affair and one was a gamble that didn't pay off (only had 3 months MOT and was decrepit when I got it home. scrapped that one and thought nothing more of it). What has really got me this time is that I have been deliberately ripped off by someone who managed to get a dodgy MOT for a car which should not have passed. I don't mind chalking it up to experience when I have gambled and lost, but this is a bit too much for me to swallow.

[sailor sam]

Apparently if yiou can trace the previous owner (and the car does have a dodgy MOT), then you may have an avenue to persue even if the previous owner was not a trader (as you say in your post #3). I'm not sure what action you can take under these circumstances so my advice would be to consult Trading Standards/Consumer Direct for their advice on what options are available to you. Please keep us posted.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[Drewmond]

I've got the previous owners details on the V5 so he shouldn't be too hard to track down.

 

As I say, I'll call up VOSA tomorrow and hopefully get them to inspect it and take it from there. Even it it doesn't give me grounds for a financial claim, the garage who issued the dodgy MOT could be facing a hefty fine and have their MOT licence revoked.

 

I'll keep you posted!

 

Cheers

[sailor sam]

Errr, what has happened here? Can someone explain some missing posts... would be useful.

 

In the meantime Drewmond, I have had a further thought about the previous owner/RK. It may be the case that the person shown on the V5 as being the RK may not have entered the car into the auction. It may be the case that that person has traded in the car to a dealer (who would not appear on the V5) and the dealer has put it into the auction. In which case you may be able to persue under the SOGA after all. Obviously you will only discover this when you contcat the previous RK.

 

As for the suggestion of sticking the car back into an auction from another cagger, can I assure you that this is not typical of the advice given on CAG. We prefer to give advice other than you would get in a back street pub over a game of darts. It worriies me that perhaps those who give that kind of advice are themselves 'traders' who do that kind of thing which gives the use car industry a bad name.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[sailor sam]

Can the site team please explain why both my and the OPs posts have been removed please?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[rebel11]

I think you've answered your own question in your request to the site team.

 

Can the site team please explain why both my and the OPs posts have been removed please?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[oddjobbob]

@ sailor sam ''In which case you may be able to persue under the SOGA after all. Obviously you will only discover this when you contcat the previous RK.

 

As for the suggestion of sticking the car back into an auction from another cagger, can I assure you that this is not typical of the advice given on CAG. We prefer to give advice other than you would get in a back street pub over a game of darts. It worriies me that perhaps those who give that kind of advice are themselves 'traders' ''

 

If he bought the car at auction then I'm certain that the soga does not apply no matter who entered the car into the auction. That's why traders as yuo call them stuff anything thats poor quality into the auction, precisely so that there's no comeback and people like the OP can buy them unaware of the problems.

 

Don't forget that most traders attend the auctions every week and will see the same car go through apparently ''sold'' (although it isn't its only ben 'sold' to the wall) and wil aovid them... hence when a member of the public attends and is virtually the only bidder he ends up with a car like this. I've worked the auctions, I know how they work, I know traders that put their rubbish into auction (precisely to avoid selling a dodgy car to someone) and in this instance I'm right.

 

A for your comment that I shouldn't advise the OP to re enter the car into the auction as ''we'' on this board do this or that I would remind you that it is NOT your board or anyone else's but a public forum where anynoe can express their opinions, yours and mine included.

 

To re enter the car into the auction is good advice for the OP in order to mitigate his losses. The car would then be someone else's problem.

 

Many on here might say 'Oh I would never do that!'.... but 90% of you would if you are honest with yourself... after all auction car = buyer beware.

[oddjobbob]

I nwould add here (going back to the original subject) that if the MOT IS found to be dodgy then there is absolutely no excuse to let an unsafe car be driven on the public road and the garage should have the book thrown at them...

[sailor sam]

I think you've answered your own question in your request to the site team.

 

Not really rebel.... did the posts not conform to the forum rules or something? I think the OP will be interested in what action or opinion you have as he himself responded to the 'advice' I referred to.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[sailor sam]

@ Bob, I don't agree that it was good advice to off load the car onto someone else, its as simple as that.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[Drewmond]

Cheers sailor sam.

 

First bit of good news is that VOSA are very interested in the car. They've got all my details and want to inspect the car. They are passing it onto the local enforcement team to arrange the inspection within the next 5 days. Once I get a verdict from them and they confirm foul play, I shall get in touch with the auction house to see if they can point me in the direction of the seller. I know they don't have to give me the details, but hopefully they will be kind. Failing that, the last registered keeper should be able to point me in the right direction.

 

As for getting rid of the car... I can get a fair bit of my money back selling it as spares/repair with an honest description. So even if I cannot get all my money back, I will get some. I hope whoever is responsible for this dodgy motor is proud of the fact they've made a family of three (with another baby on the way) a little bit poorer! Thankfully we're in the position to be able to shrug this one off without too much trouble (buying from an auction was always going to be a gamble and I never gamble what I can't afford to lose), but others may not be so fortunate.

[oddjobbob]

''buying from an auction was always going to be a gamble and I never gamble what I can't afford to lose), but others may not be so fortunate.''... excellent advice to anyone thinking of buying an auction car.... but I'm certain that SOGA does not apply to auction cars.

 

''I can get a fair bit of my money back selling it as spares/repair with an honest description''... good idea

 

''I don't agree that it was good advice to off load the car onto someone else, its as simple as that''... I never suggested that you should agree, that's why it's a public forum so that we can disagree if we want to... I conten that it's stil lgood advice and the least painful way out for the OP. You don't. That's fine!

[sailor sam]

Well as you said previously Drewmond, you have the previous RKs details so it would be interesting to find out who entered the car into the auction. My money is it was a trader which would be good news for you IMHO. Good news with VOSA as well. Please keep us posted as this story may assist others if the are considering buying from an auction. I can't help wondering how you would of felt if you had of followed the advice of my 'felllow' caggers and then seen that the car had been involved in a fatal accident on the news...

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[Drewmond]

I can't help wondering how you would of felt if you had of followed the advice of my 'felllow' caggers and then seen that the car had been involved in a fatal accident on the news...

This is exactly why I'm hanging onto this car and chasing it up as far as I can. I want the garage/seller responsible for this dodgy car to be brought to justice. If I can reclaim some of my losses, all the better.

 

And don't worry, I'll keep this thread updated!

[oddjobbob]

Yes there are things wrong with the used car business... luckily the bad sellers are gradually being weeded out and theres money to be made doing it properly.

 

Unfortunately, it seems nowadays that if you happen to buy a bad car its always someone else's fault... but you can't legislate against stuipidity (NOT suggesting this at the OP he knew he was taking a chance). Sometimes it is just that, you bought a shed of a car for far too much money... I've done it, we all have.

 

As to a youngster buying a SAS car vfrom auction, it is made perfectly clear before the auction starts that if its SAS then you own it and if it breaks into 2000 pieces on the way home, you own every one of them with no comeback. Its called life and you live and learn from it by not repeating mistakes ad lib.

 

Lets suppose I had scrapped the sheds... if they had been halfway saleable do you not think that the scrapyard would case them up (its not difficult to make s**t look good!) and sell them? What I'm getting at is that there are always people in any walk of life hioping to have you over. Thats why I didn't do it by only selling proper cars and if something went wrong then by and large I sorted it.

 

I don't think the OP has anywhere to go under SOGA even if the car was entered into the auction by a dealer... they are sold on trade terms in an auction room, there is no comeback.

 

What he can do is report the MOT station as he has done, but no action willbe taken against the delaer apart perhaps from a note on file as the dealer didn't perform the MOT test... even though they should be culpabe they probably aren't in law.

[Drewmond]

Unfortunately, it seems nowadays that if you happen to buy a bad car its always someone else's fault... but you can't legislate against stuipidity (NOT suggesting this at the OP he knew he was taking a chance). Sometimes it is just that, you bought a shed of a car for far too much money... I've done it, we all have.

 

I have no problem gambling at losing at an auction. I've done it in the past and behaved like a grown up and taken it on the chin. What I have a problem with is fraudulent MOTs being put on a car with the sole purpose of selling it for more than it's worth. If this car had 10 months MOT and found all the problems I did, I would've just scrapped it/broken it for spares and taken the loss (but then I wouldn't have bought a high mileage alfa with anything less than full MOT). But for this car to have failed an MOT 30 days ago with quite a comprehensive list of faults and then to appear for sale with a 10day old fresh year of MOT with the same faults still present, I believe that someone should be held to account over this. Firstly the MOT station for passing a dangerous car and secondly the seller who took it to auction in the full knowledge it should not have passed its MOT (assuming it was the registered keeper who put it up for sale).

 

As I have already said, VOSA are very interested in this car and are in the process of arranging an inspection. Looking at what Sam has said, I may have some recourse on the seller should the MOT be confirmed as falsely passed. Either way I'll feel better knowing that VOSA will at the very least have a stern word with the MOT station. This isn't about me making a bad decision on a car, it's about someone deliberately setting out to rip someone off!

[oddjobbob]

Hi Drewmond

 

I already said as much and indeed you included it in your quote ''(NOT suggesting this at the OP he knew he was taking a chance). ''... indeed dodgy mots can and should be stopped.

 

I really don't think yuo'll have much joy against the seller.. .who is more than likely in the trade... despite other thuoghts on here, which might be right, I am firly of the opinion that a SAS auction car is sold in that way and that SOGA will not apply in a trade auction hall.

 

But you are def doing the right thing by pursuibg the MOT station as far as you possibly can, but the seller / owner did not do the mot and cannot be held responsible for it so I very much doubt there is any mileage for yuo there, but hey, good luck if there is, I just doubt it.

[Drewmond]

Interesting development... I have found the car I have bought still up for sale in a classified advert.

 

It would appear that the last registered keeper on the V5 was not the seller. The person who has it up for sale (I'm guessing they have forgotten to remove the classified advert) is using a trade name, although there's no indication if they are actually a registered trader. Coincidentally they are selling out of the same very small town where the MOT station is located. They currently have 7 other cars for sale too (most boasting a full years MOT ).

 

The good thing is I now have a name and a phone number for them and I don't think it will take much effort to get an address. I've printed out the advert showing the car with the number plate clearly displayed and the description they have given it. It's looking less likely that this car is a trade in that was shoved it through auction to get rid and more likely that they bought it as a shed, used some spit and gaffer tape to put a dodgy MOT on it and then tried to flog it for as much as possible.

[sailor sam]

Hi Drewmond

 

I already said as much and indeed you included it in your quote ''(NOT suggesting this at the OP he knew he was taking a chance). ''... indeed dodgy mots can and should be stopped.

 

I really don't think yuo'll have much joy against the seller.. .who is more than likely in the trade... despite other thuoghts on here, which might be right, I am firly of the opinion that a SAS auction car is sold in that way and that SOGA will not apply in a trade auction hall.

 

But you are def doing the right thing by pursuibg the MOT station as far as you possibly can, but the seller / owner did not do the mot and cannot be held responsible for it so I very much doubt there is any mileage for yuo there, but hey, good luck if there is, I just doubt it.

 

Bob, have a very careful read of this which I posted earlier... you may learn something.

 

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/c_buying_at_auction.pdf

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[sailor sam]

Interesting development... I have found the car I have bought still up for sale in a classified advert.

 

It would appear that the last registered keeper on the V5 was not the seller. The person who has it up for sale (I'm guessing they have forgotten to remove the classified advert) is using a trade name, although there's no indication if they are actually a registered trader. Coincidentally they are selling out of the same very small town where the MOT station is located. They currently have 7 other cars for sale too (most boasting a full years MOT ).

 

The good thing is I now have a name and a phone number for them and I don't think it will take much effort to get an address. I've printed out the advert showing the car with the number plate clearly displayed and the description they have given it. It's looking less likely that this car is a trade in that was shoved it through auction to get rid and more likely that they bought it as a shed, used some spit and gaffer tape to put a dodgy MOT on it and then tried to flog it for as much as possible.

 

Now there is a surprise! Looks like my bet was right on the money! Well this could certainly change things. Unlike others on here, I don't believe that a trader putting a car through an auction avoids the SOGA. If it were that case, think how many consumers could be ripped off like yourself. I think you should now see what consumer direct/trading standards have to say armed with this evidence Drewmond becasue according to that link I provided the only people which the SOGA dosn't apply to is the auction house, so the trader who put it into the auction can still be liable. TS also should be looking into this trader disposing of cars through the auction that are potentiailly unroadworthy.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[Drewmond]

At least I have proof that the person trying to sell this car did so in full knowledge it is not roadworthy. Just got to wait for VOSA to pull the MOT to pieces now.