DCA and old mortgage debt

[gizmo111]

How much are they chasing cos it doesn't see mclear fro mthe amounts on what you have posted that you have received.

[give_me_it_back]

Hi. They're chasing the full amount - just over 28k. My question is - are they able to -since they have no legal documents?

[jo5ephedward5]

I'd be inclined to say they still havent provided what you require - as for forwarding your £10 etc to Halifax via them - rubbish - tell them you have done this to Halifax direct and they have yet to aknowledge it...

[give_me_it_back]

What about this..:

 

Thank you for your recent letter in response to my Subject Access Request in which you enclose copies of all the letters you have sent me as well as a photocopy of a print out of my name and address (my name is incorrectly spelled.) This is not the information I require.

 

I am still waiting to see a signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.

 

In response to your suggestion I send a covering letter to you with a cheque made payable to Halifax requesting a SARN, I would advise you that I have already done this. I am still waiting to hear from Halifax. They have until 11th November to respond.

 

I note that Halifax told you on 6th September 2006 that they have “mislaid the file” and have asked you to request the details in another 6 months.

 

Please feel free to contact me again in February when Halifax have passed this information to you. If I hear from them in response to my recent enquiry, I will contact you.

[give_me_it_back]

Bump... Please....

[alanfromderby]

If the DCA cannot provide proof of title, or any legal documentation to show they have the right to be collecting the debt, then you are within your rights not to pay them.

 

However, unless you have a dispute over the debt, you do have a duty to repay the Halifax.

 

Of course, there are numerous issues which could and should be investigated into the actual debt. For instance;

 

What valuations were made on the property before the sale?

What costs were involved in maintaining the property during the period between the repossession and the sale?

How was the house marketed and sold, and at what price?

What costs were involved in selling the property?

Has a claim been made against any indemnity insurance and how much was recovered?

How has interest been calculated from the start of the arrears?

What penalty fees, charges, and litigation fees were added to the account prior, and since, the sale of the property?

Whilst any claim for underselling, and unlawful charges, will bring questions about Limitation, that argument may be changeable as we know.

The point is this, clearly you owe them a large amount of money. However, they have fouled-up be misplacing the file. It is also likely that they sold the property without any concern to your best interests.

Without proof of title, you can threaten the DCA with Trading Standards, you can also bring in the Information Commissioner over the DSAR issues with the Halifax - especially the loss of your file. The Financial Ombudsman would also be very interested in the whole debacle.

All this provides you with a very good opportunity. You have them on the back foot - now use all the ammunition at your disposal to come to a much reduced settlement.

I would start at about 20% to call it quits.

[give_me_it_back]

Thanks Alan. I have written to Halifax, and they have not even acknowledged my letter. Do you think I should write to them again?

 

Also, what do you think of the letter I have written to the DCA? Should I be stronger and say outright that if they cannot prove they are entitled to collect, then I won't pay them?

 

The debt is between me and an ex partner, although the DCA cannot find him (an I don't know where he is) However, the debt would still be split between the 2 of us. 14k each.

 

thanks

[alanfromderby]

Thanks Alan. I have written to Halifax, and they have not even acknowledged my letter. Do you think I should write to them again?

 

Also, what do you think of the letter I have written to the DCA? Should I be stronger and say outright that if they cannot prove they are entitled to collect, then I won't pay them?

 

The debt is between me and an ex partner, although the DCA cannot find him (an I don't know where he is) However, the debt would still be split between the 2 of us. 14k each.

 

thanks

 

I would start to play hardball with both Halifax and the DCA.

 

Whilst the debt is a joint one, it was almost certainly loaned on a "joint and several" basis. This means that if they are unable to get the money jointly, they are entitled to claim it off either one. Again though, without being able to provide the documents to prove this, you are in a strong position to get the debt reduced dramatically.

[give_me_it_back]

Thanks Alan. Do you think the letter is strong enough, or should I be harder? Also, do you think I should write to Halifax again?

[alanfromderby]

What about this..:

 

Thank you for your recent letter in response to my Subject Access Request in which you enclose copies of all the letters you have sent me as well as a photocopy of a print out of my name and address (my name is incorrectly spelled.) This is not the information I require.

 

I am still waiting to see a signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement that you allege exists.

 

In response to your suggestion I send a covering letter to you with a cheque made payable to Halifax requesting a SARN, I would advise you that I have already done this. I am still waiting to hear from Halifax. They have until 11th November to respond.

 

I note that Halifax told you on 6th September 2006 that they have “mislaid the file” and have asked you to request the details in another 6 months.

 

Please feel free to contact me again in February when Halifax have passed this information to you. If I hear from them in response to my recent enquiry, I will contact you.

 

I would not include the last two paragraphs.

 

Under Schedule 1 of the Data Protection Act 1998, the Key Principles of processing Personal Data put a duty of care on companies, and the loss of this file is a serious matter, and clear breach of those principles.

 

I would tell them that you cannot accept any delay, and that failure to receive the information from the Halifax by 11th November will result in a complaint being made to the Information Commissioner.

 

As they [the DCA] have failed to provide proof of title to the debt, no further payments will be made until the necessary proof of assignment is provided. Should they consider any enforcement action, then a complaint will be made to Trading Standards and the Financial Ombudsman.

 

Also draw their attention to OFT guidelines on debt collection, and the Banking Code, which also states that no enforcement action should be taken whilst a debt is in dispute.

[give_me_it_back]

Thanks very much Alan. I will do that today.

[give_me_it_back]

Ok.. have heard from them again.. Would really appreciate feedback on this:

 

"as requested, I now enclose a standard letter of authority which confirms that we have been instructed by Halifax in this matter. A personalised letter of authority has been requested and will be sent under separate cover.

 

I have today contacted my client and requested that they look again for the file and once obtained we will be in a position to provide you with a completion statement of account and also a copy of the Mortgage Deed. Your comments regarding a SARN request to my client has been noted however, after checking with them, it has come to light that they never received your request or payment of £10. I would therefore suggest you send again... You state that no further payments will be made, however, you have never made a payment to CIS Ltd regarding this matter. I look forward to hearing from you with 14 days"

 

The standard letter is a badly photocopied letter with Halifax' letterhead, but no date or mention of my name. The letter simply says:

"I can confirm that CIS Ltd has been instructed to act for Halifax in its indemnity provider to negotiate a full and final settlement of a borrowers liability to the Halifax and indemnity provider following the sale of the borrowers property by the Halifax as mortgagee"

 

This letter does clear up one point for me. The debt has obviously been sold twice. I was making payments up until about 5 years ago. CIS say I have never made payments TO THEM.

 

My letter to Halifax was sent recorded delivery - but I can't find the slip!!! New letter going today.

 

What are your thoughts on this now?

[alanfromderby]

"as requested, I now enclose a standard letter of authority which confirms that we have been instructed by Halifax in this matter. A personalised letter of authority has been requested and will be sent under separate cover.

 

I have today contacted my client and requested that they look again for the file and once obtained we will be in a position to provide you with a completion statement of account and also a copy of the Mortgage Deed. Your comments regarding a SARN request to my client has been noted however, after checking with them, it has come to light that they never received your request or payment of £10. I would therefore suggest you send again... You state that no further payments will be made, however, you have never made a payment to CIS Ltd regarding this matter. I look forward to hearing from you with 14 days"

 

The standard letter is a badly photocopied letter with Halifax' letterhead, but no date or mention of my name. The letter simply says:

"I can confirm that CIS Ltd has been instructed to act for Halifax in its indemnity provider to negotiate a full and final settlement of a borrowers liability to the Halifax and indemnity provider following the sale of the borrowers property by the Halifax as mortgagee"

 

This letter does clear up one point for me. The debt has obviously been sold twice. I was making payments up until about 5 years ago. CIS say I have never made payments TO THEM.

 

My letter to Halifax was sent recorded delivery - but I can't find the slip!!! New letter going today.

 

What are your thoughts on this now?

 

1) The standard letter is meaningless.

2) It is a pain that you have lost the slip - have you got evidence that they cashed your payment - if not you now have to wait another 40 days.

3) There is a question as to whether the debt is to the Halifax, or to the indemnity insurers, or both.

4) With payments having been made to another DCA, it may be worth sending a DSAR to the company you were paying, and possibly CIS.

 

I think you have got them on the back foot at the moment, but I would advise keeping the pressure up...and make sure you keep everything filed carefully.

[give_me_it_back]

Thanks Alan. I know - I can't believe I lost the slip! Too much paperwork! They haven't cashed the cheque, so another on the way. I don't remember who I was paying beforehand. I didn't really pay any attention. I kind of stuck my head in the sand a lot back then. I'm glad to say that things are different now.

 

Does it make a difference if the debt is to the Halifax or the indemnity insurers?

 

I suspected the standard letter was useless. Even if a 'personal' one arrives, it surely will also be useless as it will just say the same - but with my name.

 

What do you think I should write to the DCA now?

[alanfromderby]

I would just tell them that you do not accept the copy of the letter as it provides no proof that they have the authority to be collecting this specific debt.

 

I would also thank them (I do like irony) for letting you know that Halifax had mislaid your DSAR, and that you have resubmitted it.

 

Finally, I would point out that until you receive the requested information, you consider that the debt is in-dispute. As CIS have also failed to prove they have legal title of the alleged debt, no further correspondence will be entered into unless, and until, certified documentation is provided.

 

Further, I will not be entering into any discussions with any company regarding terms of settlement for the alleged debt, until I am able to obtain answers to the following questions:

 

What valuations were made on the property before the sale?

What costs were involved in maintaining the property during the period between the repossession and the sale?

How was the house marketed and sold, and at what price?

What costs were involved in selling the property?

Has a claim been made against any indemnity insurance and how much was recovered?

How has interest been calculated from the start of the arrears?

What penalty fees, charges, and litigation fees were added to the account prior, and since, the sale of the property?

 

 

To answer your other question. If the Halifax had a payout from the indemnity insurance, it is possible that two separate debts exist. The MII will only have covered the capital of the mortgage - no interest, or charges etc.

 

On that basis, if Halifax are chasing for the balance, then it MAY be just, charges, interest, legal fees etc.

 

It is vital to know what is being claimed - the DSAR should uncover that. The DSAR should also provide the answer as to who you were originally paying. Once you have that information I would DSAR them as well.

 

To be honest, with Halifax having lost the file, this could go on for months, if not years, before you can fully assess the position of the account - and of course, you are perfectly within your rights not to make any further payments until the dispute (and ownership of the alleged debt) is resolved.

[give_me_it_back]

Thanks very much Alan. You are such a help. Letter going off tomorrow.

[give_me_it_back]

Sorry - meant to say, I did send an SAR to the DCA, and all they sent me was the stuff I mentioned. Seems like a monumental waste of £10! Are they able to cash and keep that money for the useless scraps of paper they sent me?

[alanfromderby]

Did you ask for full discosure?

 

If so then you should have received far more than that - screen file note etc. All the paperwork that initiated them seeking collection from you - minus sensitive stuff of course.

[give_me_it_back]

I asked them to provide all the information they have on me.

[alanfromderby]

In which case one would have to assume that they are not authorised to be collecting this debt.

 

In the unlikely event that they should try any enforcement action you can use the lack of documents in response to your DSAR as part of your defence - and at the same time I would escalate the matter to Trading Standards and the Information Commissioner.

 

Actually, it could be £10 well invested!

[give_me_it_back]

That's very true Alan!

 

I'll keep you posted as to their next move! Thanks for all your help again. You are keeping me sane (ish!)

[give_me_it_back]

Heard from DCA again:

 

"I have noted the contents of your letter and would refer you to the second paragraph of my letter which clearly states 'a personalised letter of authority has been requested and will be sent under separate cover'

 

I also stated in the same letter that a completion statement has been requested which will provide the details requested in your letter"

 

Is this enough..?

 

It hasn't arrived yet, and I have still to hear from the Halifax.

[give_me_it_back]

bump....?

 

Assuming the DCA send what they say they will, is this enough?

 

I have still not heard from Halifax. They only have until 9th December. If I don't hear from them at all, what is my next step?

 

Thanks very much

[alanfromderby]

I would never "assume" anything until it happens...and there are so many scenarios that can happen that it would be pointless to spend time thinking about the action to take. The best way to be prepared to deal with their possible actions is to use the time reading through other threads and other peoples experiences.

[give_me_it_back]

Thanks Alan. I suppose I will have to wait and see what comes in the post. It's just that the wait is pretty stressful.

 

I do spend a long time searching the site, but I don't see any other cases which are similar to mine.

 

I'll keep the thread updated with any movement and carry on trying to find similar case studies.

 

Thanks