Bought a Second Hand Car with a Large Fault

[cds80]

Hi,

 

I'm after a little advice.

 

I bought a second hand car from a dealer at £775. Now at this price one would expect a fair amount of wear and tear, and a few jobs to do to get it running nicely. I'm not too bad with a spanner so this was my line of thought whilst looking for the right car. I found one with full service history, long MOT and a few cosmetic problems that I intended to sort out; a few minor patches of rust here and there, stained leather in need of a bit of TLC, that sort of thing. There were also a few mechanical/electrical issues with simple fixes such as half of the dashboard pixels missing and the bonnet catch not operating properly. The car drives very well indeed.

 

However, I noticed that after a few journeys it was losing coolant every time I was out in it. I've owned the car for two weeks now and have had to top it up with over a litre. I could not find a leak myself so took it to someone to perform a pressure test. No leak was found but the oil was forming emulsion and there was a lot of steam coming from the exhaust even after an hour of running, heavily suggesting the dreaded head gasket. As you will know, this is a serious issue and never a cheap fix. Particularly so on a six cylinder BMW.

 

This is clearly a problem that was present before I bought the car, and one I would imagine does not come under general "wear and tear". I realise I bought this car for relatively little, however I was under the impression that faults as big as these that were not noted at the point of sale would afford me some rights as a consumer.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[grahamengineering]

Hi,

 

I'm after a little advice.

 

I bought a second hand car from a dealer at £775. Now at this price one would expect a fair amount of wear and tear, and a few jobs to do to get it running nicely. I'm not too bad with a spanner so this was my line of thought whilst looking for the right car. I found one with full service history, long MOT and a few cosmetic problems that I intended to sort out; a few minor patches of rust here and there, stained leather in need of a bit of TLC, that sort of thing. There were also a few mechanical/electrical issues with simple fixes such as half of the dashboard pixels missing and the bonnet catch not operating properly. The car drives very well indeed.

 

However, I noticed that after a few journeys it was losing coolant every time I was out in it. I've owned the car for two weeks now and have had to top it up with over a litre. I could not find a leak myself so took it to someone to perform a pressure test. No leak was found but the oil was forming emulsion and there was a lot of steam coming from the exhaust even after an hour of running, heavily suggesting the dreaded head gasket. As you will know, this is a serious issue and never a cheap fix. Particularly so on a six cylinder BMW.

 

This is clearly a problem that was present before I bought the car, and one I would imagine does not come under general "wear and tear". I realise I bought this car for relatively little, however I was under the impression that faults as big as these that were not noted at the point of sale would afford me some rights as a consumer.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

 

Regarding warranty. Well frankly what did you think £775 was going to buy you in a BMW? You get what you pay for. At that price as long as it starts goes and stops it has met the requirements in the eyes of the law.

 

Yes the HG could well be away, but thats the chance you take when buying a banger.

[cds80]

Regarding warranty. Well frankly what did you think £775 was going to buy you in a BMW? You get what you pay for. At that price as long as it starts goes and stops it has met the requirements in the eyes of the law.

 

Yes the HG could well be away, but thats the chance you take when buying a banger.

 

I completely understand what you are saying regarding the price; it was bought for a relatively small amount of money and I certainly didn't get a warranty with it. I could not get a perfect car at this price, nor did I expect one. However, I understand it's not a case of "sold as seen" as with private sales, and I think this is a serious inherent fault. If I have any comeback with the dealer I would be happy. If you could link me to some literature regarding the law in these situations that would be great.

 

My last BMW cost £650 and had a number of issues I was happy to fix; sensors, air conditioning, etc. I ran it for one and a half years and it had done 175k miles when I sold it.

[grahamengineering]

Sale of goods act. I forget which paragraph but the wording is essentially, the car must be in condition representive of the age, miles and price paid.

 

We'll say that your car was eg £25k when new. You paid roughly 3% of that to buy it so the car will be 97% worn out. You could try speaking nicely to the dealer and ask to return it. He may do so as a goodwill gesture. If not, well sorry to say you pretty much got what you paid for.

[cds80]

Sale of goods act. I forget which paragraph but the wording is essentially, the car must be in condition representive of the age, miles and price paid.

 

We'll say that your car was eg £25k when new. You paid roughly 3% of that to buy it so the car will be 97% worn out. You could try speaking nicely to the dealer and ask to return it. He may do so as a goodwill gesture. If not, well sorry to say you pretty much got what you paid for.

 

Thank you for the advice. It is appreciated and is what I came here for. I realise it may sound silly asking about such an inexpensive purchase, but I would have always wondered in the back of my mind whether there was something I could have done to save myself the money had I not bothered. "Enthusiast" cars are often very much a labour of love and I was fully expecting to pay more than the car is worth over the course of ownership.

[sailor sam]

How many miles have you done in the 2 weeks you have had the car? How was the car advertsied?

[cds80]

How many miles have you done in the 2 weeks you have had the car? How was the car advertsied?

 

Hi,

 

It was advertised as "good runner" with full service history and MOT until August 2012.

 

I'll have to check the miles, but I've basically done about a tank and a half of fuel if I recall correctly. That would equate to around 400 / 500 miles by my reckoning.

[sailor sam]

Hmm, while you may still be in the time window to reject, thats quite a bit in 2 weeks. Having said that, it should still last longer than that dispite the low purchace price. I can't see that you have spoken to the seller yet to see what he has to say. In any event he should have the opportunity to inspect the car and rectify. I suggest you approach him and see what happens. If push does come to shove, the onus will be on the seller to show that the fault wasn't present 2 weeks ago. My only worry is that after around 400 miles in 2 weeks, that will make his argument easier to make. You may have to settle with a contribution to the repair unless you want to try your luck in court. lets see what the seller's response is first.

[cds80]

I emailed them yesterday using an address that they have answered before, so that my concerns are on record and there is no doubt as to what has been said. I was very polite and simply stated what has happened since the day I bought it, as well as the diagnosis after pressure testing. They haven't replied yet so I will try to contact them tomorrow during work if I get chance. I can genuinely understand the point of view regarding what I paid, however for the cost of fixing the head gasket I may as well have bought it without an engine.

[sailor sam]

I emailed them yesterday using an address that they have answered before, so that my concerns are on record and there is no doubt as to what has been said. I was very polite and simply stated what has happened since the day I bought it, as well as the diagnosis after pressure testing. They haven't replied yet so I will try to contact them tomorrow during work if I get chance. I can genuinely understand the point of view regarding what I paid, however for the cost of fixing the head gasket I may as well have bought it without an engine.

 

If the fault was present at the point of sale then it matters not what you paid. The only problem I can see is the argument he may have with the mileage you have done since the purchase. If it went as far as court, I think you would possibly only get a contribution to the repair because the HG may not of been on its way out 400 miles ago. Your best hope is to appeal to the seller's better nature (if he has one!).

[cds80]

The first time I noticed low coolant was on Christmas day, so only two days after the sale. With the holiday period however I could not get it pressure tested until the 4th. Of course, I have no way of proving this. The timing is a shame, had it been a normal working week I would have had it tested as soon as I noticed the coolant kept dropping. In hindsight I should have sent an email from the first hint, but at that point I thought it no more than a minor leak.

[cds80]

I got a lovely response from the dealer today.

 

After not receiving a reply to my email a couple of days ago, I sent another today during my lunch break. Again, very polite, presenting the facts and just asking what their thoughts were. I was hoping that I would get an email response so that I have a record of everything so far. However, later on whilst I was dealing with a customer I got a voicemail message. Once free, I had a listen and what I got was this "It's xxx from xxx.... NO. Thank you.". From the tone in his voice it was pretty clear he's not willing to listen to a thing. I didn't suggest in either email what I was after, I just wanted their point of view.

[oddjobbob]

''I just wanted their point of view.''

 

No you didn't you wanted them to pay for the repair, please don't take us for idiots.

 

Despite what sailor sam says I'm absolutely convinced that a car bought for 3% of its original value will be seen by a county court registrar as a banger and treated as such.

[BrazilianCCK]

The law on this follows that for insolvency - it used to be that any car worth less than £500 was not of interest to the official receiver and hence regarded by the court as a "banger" , now it is any car worth less than £2000 - whilst it doesn't take away any of the rights written in law, the expectations of such a car by the courts should a dispute reach that stage is not alot.

[sailor sam]

I agree with both Bob and Brazilian on this BUT SOGA can still apply depending on how the car was advertised/sold no matter how little the purchase price. Had the OP only done say, 100 miles since purchase then I think he would have a better case. As he has done over 400, I think it would be a very easy defence for the seller to say that the fault was not there at the point of purchase. I think I pointed this out in posts 8 & 10. At the end of the day, ity would be for the OP to decide on whether to take matters further. I suggest he consults Consumer Direct or Trading Standards for their views before he makes a decission.

[cds80]

''I just wanted their point of view.''

 

No you didn't you wanted them to pay for the repair, please don't take us for idiots.

 

Ultimately, I would like the repair paying for and as this is unlikely to happen and I would be happy with a contribution. My exact wording at the end of the email was "Please let me know what you think" and I had not suggested that they pay for anything prior to this; I wanted to give them an opportunity to reason with me. Sorry if I didn't explain myself properly. Perhaps they could reply and say "it's not our responsibility and here's why...". Closure is more important to me than anything else because at the moment I have a car that could let me down at any point. I am not looking for sympathy as the poor buyer who got ripped off by the nasty seller.

 

I am preparing for the likelihood that I will have to pay for the repair myself. The only thing holding me back from booking it in is the possibility that I might be able get some assistance with the bill. Had it been a private seller, it would be booked in and probably fixed by now.

 

I will contact either Consumer Direct or Trading Standards on Monday and see if they think it's worth the effort of pursuing this.

Edited January 8, 2012 by cds80

[oddjobbob]

''Ultimately, I would like the repair paying for and as this is unlikely to happen and I would be happy with a contribution''

 

That's right, and exactly as I thought.

 

Let's hope you get a contribution.. persomnally I think on a £775 car, if he gave you the odd £75 towards it you'd be lucky... I've no idea what BMW it ws you bought but if the ancillaries and odywork are ok it would break for more than that... doesn't take long, £50 for a screen, £50 for an alternator, same for a starter motor, £50 for the lock set, £20 ech for the window motors, £40 for the bonnet etc.