Being investigated for benefit fraud, help!!!

[Bustard]

This is a problem ...if you say were purposefully going round Boot Sales , jumble sales early or even auctions or doing cash in hand house clearances in order to make a profit ; they may well have grounds for suspicion as you've crossed that line . The regular car booters also trade on eBay and have a feel for values , they're hardly likely to sell someone ....for example a pair of rare 70's Levis for 50p that someone will sell on for £40 - 70 on eBay .......all eBay is a glorified online big car boot sale .........in your case this does not appear to be the case and it's nobodies business but yours .

It does make me laugh all these wild goose chases ......if the DWP or LA staff wanted to go round boot sales .....they could see who is actually in effect working ; some people turn a blind eye as it keeps some otherwise unemployable people for one reason or another out of mischief , and there is the discipline of work not the Broken Britain model . The problem is due to their pettiness and small mindedness they appear to miss what is going on right under their noses . What I'm driving at is that you've a choice ....do you tolerate necessary evils or do you go all holier than thou ? .....if the authorities go all holier than thou ....they should expect some to contradict and challenge them ? ....standing up to them .

 

There's also the counterfeit dodgy DVD's both on eBay & on boot sales ....often it's a way of laundering drugs money ....why not chase them ?

 

There are some on eBay that bid for supermarket vouchers for say £50 which they'll use for a big shop to hide the profitable trading ........not that I'd condone wilful benefit fraud

 

There are some eBay sellers that the Revenue may be interested in .

 

Re the OP there's all the associated costs with eBay ....listing fees , Paypal commission , printing packing notes and invoices , my Canon cartridges cost £18 a time , paying for broadband ...answering people's questions dealing with queries , cost of packing materials , petrol and diesel and wear and tear on a car running parcels to the Post Office

 

It makes me laugh as there's articles in the papers about benefit claimers sat on sofas watching 42 " Plasma TV's , not getting up to 12 noon etc , drinking cheap lager and cider

Edited January 9, 2012 by Bustard

[dollydoo29]

I think i may have about £3000 off ebay sells for a 6 months period this is back 2010 they were diggin them selves thru my banks to find a finacial link from they noticed it when i was firstly being investaged for partner living with me which is also untrue. i do have photo evidence of everything i sold was mine i intend to use this as the case proceeds. i never did the buy cheap and sell at boot sales things it was always my own items but things i bought over time were desirable peices so there value skyrocketed on ebay as they were limted edtidion items at the time of buying thou they were bog standard items. they just care about the fact i showed i could support myself and did need the govements help , they werent nasty they were just like here it is in black n white that you had this income coming in y did u need your benfits. yes i did have a solicitor and he said this is a very rare suituation he has never been involved with a case like it , he told me to say that i was unware that selling my good on ebay was a crime which is what i was saying anyway.i never set out to defraud them i just wanted to make a bit of cash to tax the car , get b days pressies . i havent used ebay for years and i will never touch my ebay account now ever after this. 7/8 mths on since the iuc not heard anything since they told me they were totting up the figures for intended prosectution i think it will be 6 months worth of is,hb and cb which cud prob be around 6k

[Bustard]

it's interesting that solicitor said it was an unusual case , they can delay court cases as they have to book court rooms months in advance . I believe in IUC's they have to get an admission that you purposefully , knowingly and wilfully intended to defraud . If you feel you merely sold personal items and merely bought wisely ...maintain that position ....say that it's a grey fuzzy area ....what they sound like they're doing is ramping up their personal opinion into supposed fact ...extrapolating they call it

 

Two scenarios ...one they're looking for a test case OR they've been well advised by more senior legal people that they have less than a 50 % - 55 % chance of proving beyond all reasonable doubt in court . That's the problem they can initially work on what they call on the bounds of probability with they call " articulate-able suspicion " , they'll have a definite game plan and they'll ! hope there's more pieces to the jigsaw , their job is to see if they've got a case for prosecution that'll stand up in court ...they can't waste public money on wild goose chases . My problem with IUC's is this ....is this an investigation which is fair enough ? or are they are trying to be Prosecuting Barristers in a court . Somebody could make an innocent remark and it could twisted or used to make a lot of trouble for someone ...hence the need for legal representation .

 

They may be trying to move the goalposts ? and this is all to impress someone a lot more senior ? ..............in the IUC they went for they call the " Bingo Moment " ............it's subtle or verbal bullying really , they're hoping you'll fall for their naive ruse and believe what they said and say " Oh yes ...you've got me bang to rights , it's a fair cop Sir " .....Ok I'm being sarcastic but that's the gist of it . Your solicitor riding shotgun in the IUC advised you well .

 

The other common case scenario is say someone picks up a CD in HMV , you're waylaid by someone outside , then a guard or store detective taps you on the shoulder . You're taken into the Office . The Police are called ....weeks later you're in front of the magistrates for shoplifting ............you maintain or your solicitor maintains in court that you were genuinely absent minded or whatever ....you're found not guilty and walk out of the court without a blemish on your character as they have to give you the benefit of the doubt . The problem now with benefit fraud is assumptions by people in charge ...a dangerous game to play . Going back to the shoplifted CD scenario ....the magistrates could be arguing amongst themselves in a court back room ....one of the bench will say I don't believe her , I've got her number and if I ever have her in front of me again ....we'll see ....another might say we'll have to let this go .....hence the earlier point made on did someone knowingly , wilfully etc ?

 

Not all investigators are monsters , in case anyone accuses me of bashing them , one blew the whistle in The Guardian saying their bosses are giving orders to target single mothers as a soft touch , they find it frustrating as there's other people that they could have in court and convicted based on good evidence . Others complain of unrealistic targets imposed , lots of marriages and relationships break up due to that pressure . The present government are complaining that the conviction rate went down under New Labour ....there well may be a good reason for it ...or there is a childish , " we're tougher than them " game to score points .

 

As I've said if they did some digging on eBay or went round the car boot they may well be people that they could have in front of the beak .

 

unfortunately you can only wait ...hopefully it'll be the benefit of the doubt one as in the CD from HMV text book scenario and let it go as a necessary evil even if they're suspicious of you ....not nice

 

Might be a good idea to put this discreetly on forums like eBay forums via a " friend of a friend " ....they do watch 'em ....a calculated gamble ?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Bustard

[Lilly_Monroe]

What about if you do craft work are you allowed to sell that - there is NO profit in it, I do it to help with my depression.

But, it would be nice to recover some of the material costs to allow me to buy more.

I keep all my receipts of what I buy, so anyone could see I was losing money - not making.

I am scared to try and sell anything because of being hauled in.

I am only talking £3 an item max and many less than that.

 

Lilly

[Consumer dude]

What about if you do craft work are you allowed to sell that - there is NO profit in it, I do it to help with my depression.

But, it would be nice to recover some of the material costs to allow me to buy more.

I keep all my receipts of what I buy, so anyone could see I was losing money - not making.

I am scared to try and sell anything because of being hauled in.

I am only talking £3 an item max and many less than that.

 

Lilly

 

Let them haul you in. If no profit is being made, then I can't see an issue.

[vicky764]

Dolly doo - you say you made 3k over a 6 month period? firstly they dont take child benefit into account so you wont be repaying that, and as far as income support and housing benefit goes, if you rang them and said you have a job and earned 3 k over 6 months they wont have then recalculated your benefits and you still would have been entitled to both seen as you are earning a very low wage so when they are calculating the overpayment, surely they have to take this into account.

 

I would assume they have to calculate what you would have gotten having earned 3k and then took that figure away from what you claimed, leaving them with the deficit i.e overpayment

 

your estimate of 6k overpayment over 6 months seems very high.

[vicky764]

sorry that sounded confusing, i meant that if you had told them you started working and had then earned 3k over 6 months then you would still be entitled to an element of is and hb

[jabba jones]

it's interesting that solicitor said it was an unusual case

 

It's not an unusual case.

 

But lets not forget it might have nothing to do with Ebay. At this stage it could still be a simple LT case (which you can disprove) it all depends how deeply they've looked into it.

 

As for anyone else using ebay on a regular basis who has been forced to register as a business. Declare it! Let the DWP / council decision makers decide if alters anything.

[jadeybags]

sorry that sounded confusing, i meant that if you had told them you started working and had then earned 3k over 6 months then you would still be entitled to an element of is and hb

 

 

There is not many councils or DWP offices that would offer that info up voluntarily by the way. You have to do your own leg work there & make them take note. I had a friend that was prosecuted for 11k

It took months for him to get the council to listen to that argument, & many letters, he emailed me them all! they did eventually listen, & his over payment went down to 1k.

[jadeybags]

Let them haul you in. If no profit is being made, then I can't see an issue.

 

 

Yup.

And what you said up there ^ about the bingo moment, very true. The lady that interviewed me was saying she was glad I was a strong person & stood my ground, as she had women in there before that she knew had made a genuine mistake with their claim, but because they were in such a state, they cracked under the pressure & said they were guilty, in the hope it would make it all go away quicker. She said it's horrible for her because she knows it's on tape & can be used.

And yes, some investigators are nice.

[vicky764]

hi jadeybags

 

Just wanted to ask you what you were called in for and what happend?

 

i know you mentioned a 16k overpayment

 

did they stop your benefits or take you to court etc

 

vicky

[jadeybags]

Sorry, mine wasn't 16k it was 1600 pounds (I can't find my pound key on this lappy, for som reason I seem to have USA keyboard lol)

I basically went from Income support for 10 yrs to working 16 hours a week & claiming top up benefits. Worst thing I ever did, it was my choice, I didn't even have to at the time. But I was quids in because they were still paying all my rent. I remember always telling people it well pays to work because you get exactly the same amount of money, yet also get to keep your wages!

The first I knew was 2 yrs later when a compliance officer knocked on the door, nice enough lady. Turned out they had me down for 170 odd quid a month less than I was actually earning.

When I had first taken my work contract down to the council, & my first pay slip, my first pay slip was only a part payslip as I hadn't worked a full month by the time we all got paid.

I assumed they used the contract to work out housing benefit, but now know they don't & they should have asked me to take down another payslip when I got it, but didn't.

So I was called in for an IUC & was ready to walk in front of a bus to be quite honest. My blood pressure at the time must have been through the roof. I didn't sleep, & was going to work at 3am instead of 6 because I thought I may as well!

It did turn out ok, but at the time you just can't imagine it turning out ok.

Without wanting to be too graphic I was working out in my head how I could leave this world whilst making sure my kids got the life insurance, because I didn't want the council snatching thousands off their inherittance. Crazy I know now, but that's how desperate something like that can get for someone. And another reason I couldn't go through it again.

[vicky764]

thats exactly how im feeling, i have woken up today looking like death, im shaky all the time and i feel sick, i cant concentrate on anything and am not sleeping much or eating much

 

The interview is on thursday and i have spoken to the lady whos interviewing me just asking her what its regarding as they only said its a change in my circumstances. She was actually really nice and said she knows that its worrying but try not to and shes not an ogre and it wont be as bad as i think.

 

still dont feel any better.

 

If i have made a mistake then i will of course pay the money back but i just dont want to end up in court as i dont think thats fair when i dont think i have done anything wrong.

 

So so worried

[jadeybags]

Lets hope you have a nice person interviewing you, I certainly did.

I do know of someone that was selling things she made on eBay, was on income support, one child, she was hauled in for an IUC a year ago as someone had tipped them off, she still doesn't know to this day who. But they did tell her she can't even make a penny profit, she wasn't prosecuted.

So anyway, she declared it as an income self employed at 20 hours a week, she now makes about 45 pounds a week profit, claims tax credits & full housing benefit. So in a way it worked out well for her, apart from the complexities of tax returns at the moment!

[sadone]

Sadly the way the Inland Revenue as clamping down on low paid self employed I don't think thats going to last much longer for her.

 

I think It's outrageous that you can't even sell you're own possessions like this. I mean Benefits are purposefully set at a rate to make it almost impossible to live on, and so of course people who often through no fault of their own end up being stuck in the poverty trap either for a while or long term. What do they do? Sell what they own of course, and the idea that the government will prosecute you for doing so just seems incredibly unfair and harsh.

[jadeybags]

Sadly the way the Inland Revenue as clamping down on low paid self employed I don't think thats going to last much longer for her.

 

I think It's outrageous that you can't even sell you're own possessions like this. I mean Benefits are purposefully set at a rate to make it almost impossible to live on, and so of course people who often through no fault of their own end up being stuck in the poverty trap either for a while or long term. What do they do? Sell what they own of course, and the idea that the government will prosecute you for doing so just seems incredibly unfair and harsh.

 

What do you mean clamping down on low paid self employed? Is it true that they will soon be assuming that self employed people earn minimum wage, & if they don't it's tough they'll lose out?

[sadone]

Well If you go onto certain boards and places such as Rightnet.com (the CAB workers website) you'll see more and more cases of the IR going for low wage self employed earners who are claiming tax credits such as this one..

 

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/1956/

 

I suspect that they're doing this to help pave the way for the more draconian rules regarding the self employed when the dreaded Universal Credit comes in, which will mean the end of many low earning businesses.

 

In reality they are ignoring their own guidelines when declaring an overpayment, but hey are you surprised with anything this government does right now?

Edited January 10, 2012 by sadone

[jadeybags]

Well If you go onto certain boards and places such as Rightnet.com (the CAB workers website) you'll see more and more cases of the IR going for low wage self employed earners who are claiming tax credits such as this one..

 

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/1956/

 

I suspect that they're doing this to help pave the way for the more draconian rules regarding the self employed when the dreaded Universal Credit comes in, which will mean the end of many low earning businesses.

 

In reality they are ignoring their own guidelines when declaring an overpayment, but hey are you surprised with anything this government does right now?

 

Hmmm interesting, although to be honest, the lady I was referring to probably works more than 30 hours a week self employed, she only claims for 20 hours in regards to tax credits. Told her she should be telling them she's doing 30! The nature of what she does is obvious she is putting a whole lot of hours in, so hopefully she'll be ok, for the time being anyway.

[dollydoo29]

i will update my case if i ever hear anything back from them which im sure i will in due course

[Bustard]

Yup.

And what you said up there ^ about the bingo moment, very true. The lady that interviewed me was saying she was glad I was a strong person & stood my ground, as she had women in there before that she knew had made a genuine mistake with their claim, but because they were in such a state, they cracked under the pressure & said they were guilty, in the hope it would make it all go away quicker. She said it's horrible for her because she knows it's on tape & can be used.

And yes, some investigators are nice.

 

Absolutely ! Legal people advise that an innocent remark could be twisted and used as evidence , there is a case for making very carefully written statements ...with good legal advice . It would also be less stressful too. Their job is to get something that would be recommended for prosecution and someone in front of the beak , to plead guilty and in and out of the court as quickly as possible .

 

That Lady that investigated you sounds fairer and maturer than some & less likely to take things too personally . There's ones that lay it on too thick with an eye on brownie points and Council / DWP office politics ....that's their problem alone . In a friend's case , their statements were underlined and circled in red ink by the defending solicitor as they begged more questions than answers . Forget what you see in films or on telly their job is to make people look as guilty as .

 

As it happens the defending solicitor had words with the CPS Prosecutor hired by the council and those statements were dropped as too contentious . His introduction was as short as possible , he produced graphs to make things look good but that's it . The magistrates were as nice as possible and it was all over in about 10 minutes .

 

What had happened was the junior investigator at the IUC had previously visited that friend as a compliance officer and the blonde bombshell was asked for ID , but she twisted it to make out that friend was acting shifty and furtive by not immediately letting her in and trying to make a connection in her court statement .

 

It was also " interesting " that the then compliance officer was going on about her mortgage with her BF and that friend had paid off her mortgage as the property was bought before prices went silly nationwide not just in a guild town . Kirsty Alsop has a lot to answer for ! . There was catty but put nicely questions about what that friend was going to do that particular day . That friend had been very ill and had passed a Personal Capability Assessment with the DWP backed up by Senior Hospital Consultants . If anything that friend had worked too hard and the last job nearly put that person in hospital .

 

The house stood out like a sore thumb alongside the scruffy Housing Association ones . They do target particular areas .

[bio]

Forget what you see in films or on telly.

 

....or rubbish you read on internet forums! The OP will now be clearly hoping that the interviewing officers don't have any mortgage issues.....

 

May I just point out that the job of a Fraud Investigator in an IUC is simply to establish the facts. If Fraud has been committed, then this could lead to varying sanctions, if Fraud has not been committed, then this fact will be revealed.

[jabba jones]

....The OP will now be clearly hoping that the interviewing officers don't have any mortgage issues.....

 

Or that they are targeting scruffier housing that day!

[Nystagmite]

....or rubbish you read on internet forums!

 

Obviously not everyone; but many will only post when they need help.

[jadeybags]

....or rubbish you read on internet forums! The OP will now be clearly hoping that the interviewing officers don't have any mortgage issues.....

 

May I just point out that the job of a Fraud Investigator in an IUC is simply to establish the facts. If Fraud has been committed, then this could lead to varying sanctions, if Fraud has not been committed, then this fact will be revealed.

 

That was said tongue in cheek, right?

[bio]

That was said tongue in cheek, right?

 

It is a fraud investigators job to establish the facts, and put claims right - no more, no less.....