Urgent Help Requested With Council Bailiffs

[i hate bailiffs]

For council tax is is nothing more than the council hiring a room and they process liability orders in bulk

 

If you feel you are not liable for the council tax you need to attend

 

all they do in the court/room hired by the council is rubber stamp the orders

There is no real deference with the council unless not your debt

[Conniff]

The councils have all latched on to a huge money making racket where they add on up to £150 to the arrears you are already struggling to pay. The problem is, it is legal but not moral.

 

As things stand with Council tax collection, the council can't collect if you say no. To counter this, they apply to the court for a 'Liability Order'. This is exactly as it says.

 

Are you liable for council tax or not?

 

If the answer is yes, then there is no point in attending court as the judge cannot take into consideration the ability to pay or hardship, he can only look at if you are liable or not.

 

Once the council has the liability order, it give them legal powers to make you pay. They can send in the bailiffs, (usual method), or they can get an attachment of Earnings where your employer deducts directly from your pay before giving it to you or they can make you bankrupt, (Manchester council does this the most).

 

If you do not believe you are liable for council tax, then take your evidence along to the court where you can see the judge. It never usually gets that far as the council worker who is there will scrub you off the list and refer it back to the council to investigate.

 

If you are liable and the judge stamps it, you will get some paperwork through telling you so and giving you a short time in which to pay. Ring the council immediately as they have the discretion to allow time payments.

 

here we are at court on Monday all of which could have been avoided.

 

Councils will never avoid going to court, the cost of a liability order is £3 but they add big money on to your bill. It is a lucrative little earner grossing some £250 million in 2009 just in England.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Conniff

[Banking on change]

Hi Conniff

 

Really appreciate your advice.

 

So here's my take.

 

I have three recorded phone calls where the Council are clearly trying to suggest I don't turn up. Mostly by implying it's just a formality and that I will "probably not get to speak." one of them said only their representative go into the court.

 

I called a friend tonight who was summoned having paid £2000 and made a pre court offer to pay the outstanding balance in monthly payments. The Council proceeded with court action and the judge ripped them to pieces for not accepting my friends proposal.

 

If I attend court and show the email and recorded letter proving my attempts to deal with the matter, then put forward transcripts on the Council telling me not to bother turning up as I won't get to go into the court, what do you think the judge could potentially do if I were to request compensation for my costs as I've spent considerable time on this only to be ignored by the council.

 

I'm not talking one or two emails I'm talking many repeated requests from March last year until now.

 

Funnily enough I am an internet marketing consultant and just before Christmas I though "Okay" as they have not replied to my last 4 emails I'm going to send one via a service I use which can record email open rates. Sure enough the email was confirmed open and they replied. Coincidence ..... ?????

 

If you have any advice on how to nail these racketeers please let me know and I will post my results next week.

 

Completely understand that i might not be exempt under the council tax laws as by their own admission the law is not clear on what constitutes exemption but at the very least I deserve the respect of having my request considered without the need to be dragged into court to do so.

 

I'm ready to fight this just need your guidance.

 

 

Again many thanks.

[i hate bailiffs]

There will be no judge !

 

Just a room in the court building with a council employee

 

It is just a case of liable or not

[Banking on change]

Hi

 

Thanks for the reply.

Okay now I'm confused.

 

If there's no judge:

 

a) who decides if I'm liable

b) Why does the summons say that i am "summoned to appear?"

c) How come my friend was able to put his case forward to a magistrate consisting of three people?

[i hate bailiffs]

Hi

 

Thanks for the reply.

Okay now I'm confused.

 

If there's no judge:

 

a) who decides if I'm liable

b) Why does the summons say that i am "summoned to appear?"

c) How come my friend was able to put his case forward to a magistrate consisting of three people?

 

 

a)council employee in that hired room in the court building

 

b)the `summoned to appear` letter i expect that came in a envelope with the council logo on it not the court

 

c)was that for a liability order?or was it further steps of enforcement such as a means hearing

[Banking on change]

Hi

 

Thanks again

 

a)council employee in that hired room in the court building.

The Council told me this will mean they get a liability order, pass that to a bailiff and the bailiff then owns the debt and will chase me for it. If that's true how can a council employee make the liability decision? I thought only a judge could make such an order.

 

b) No longer have the envelope but address on summons is from the court.

 

 

c) I don't know but if a liability order is handed to bailiffs as explained by the council that's game over isn't it? There is no court hearing after that. So when in this whole process do I get to put my case forward?

 

Thanks for guidance I'm very grateful

[Conniff]

It is just in an office, but a judge does stamp and sign the spreadsheet. He/She will ask if there are any objections and if no then just stamp and go back to his coffee.

There usually aren't any objections as the council person will meet all those who attend and 99 times out of 100 will scrub them off the list if they wish to speak to the judge. Of course, you don't have to speak to this council person, you can just give you name to them and walk away waiting to be called.

 

The bailiff does not and never can own a council tax debt. They are used solely for collection as the council are lazy, have no care whatsoever for the people. this is shown in the many threads on here where the council have told those in trouble 'that it is in the hands of the bailiff and there is nothing they can do'. This is blatant lies, they have full discretion on how the collection is handled.

 

This whole system needs to change. You have a monthly council tax bill which you can't afford and default on, so they add on a couple of hundred pounds and tell you that you have to now pay the whole outstanding amount at once. Hello, I can't afford the £100 so how am I going to afford £800. Then to put the icing on the cake, they hand collection to a bailiff who will also lie and threaten and add even more charges, and in a lot of cases, more than he is permitted to.

[Banking on change]

Hi Conniff

 

Thank you, it's now clear to me that I must attend as it's my last chance to stop the Council Action.

 

What I need to know now is:

 

1. Will the judge hear a counter claim if I prepare one?

2. And if yes how should I account for my time spent on this emails/phone calls etc?

3. Is there is a a way to also claim for distress caused due to their negligent action?

4. What should I do about the recordings where the Council reps are trying to persuade me not to attend?

5. Is there any point negotiating with the Council rep at court?

 

The Council were also made aware at the beginning of fiasco that I was being treated for severe anxiety and depression. The previous tenant had threatened myself and my family plus we were dealing with the mortgage company who went for repossession. We only saved the property from repo in the eleventh hour literally! There is more but not relevant here.

 

 

Going beyond this, if this happens to people often and they are already facing bailiffs is is it not possible to take the Council to court if you have evidence they misled you or you have evidence as in my case and that they did not respond to reasonable requests for clarification of the matter prior to taking court action?

 

Very grateful for your replies and am ready to spend the rest of my weekend preparing evidence if necessary. Please feel free to suggest as much as possible and as I said previously I will follow this through and report back for others to hopefully gain some hope.

 

Cheers

[Conniff]

You certainly won't be able to make a court case with counter claims for time etc. He really is only there to give authority to the councils claim that you are liable to pay council tax.

 

You don't have to speak to the council worker, so when asked who you are, just give your name and nothing else, that might get you in to see the judge, but whether he will listen to what you have to say is another thing.

 

All he can really do is not stamp the liability order on you and tell the council to have another look. I think attending will get the liability order stopped and sent back to the council.

 

If you think you are being penalised and not listened to, it's very unusual to go to court for such a thing so don't really know what you would head your claim.

You should find out who is the head of finance in your council, (you are allowed to say if you want), and write using recorded delivery, you could also copy it to the council boss.

You can also write to your MP, or visit his surgery and they are obliged to look at it, they will probably jump at it especially if it's a labour MP and a Tory council or vice versa.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Conniff

[Banking on change]

Hi Conniff,

 

Okay so best bet is just turn up then and get it returned to the council. Surely the Judge will ask me for evidence that the liability has not been assessed by the council yet.

 

Yes I own the flat and yes if tax is due it would be me who has to pay. My position is that I requested the extra six months a class a exemption allows and the Council failed to respond to my requests.

Is that enough to hold them off as they agree they have not yet assessed my situation?

 

The Council did also give conflicting advice on the phone yesterday. They agreed to out a 2 week hold on my account but still are going to court on Monday.

I can't quite get my head around that.

 

So the way Council Tax law works then, the Council have nothing to lose by being negligent as they still have the power to take you to court even if they make mistakes and there's no come back for their actions.

Wow am I really in a 1st world country : )

 

I agree with your earlier statement, this has to change.

 

Is there an action group fighting this that you know of? Is there something I can do to help?

 

I will follow your advice with regard to the contacting my MP. Just one question on that. My flat is in a different town to my residence and so different council.

Do I contact my local MP or the MP for the area covering my flat?

 

Again Conniff I'm so grateful for your advice. I wouldn't had had a clue with out you and quite probably wouldn't have gone to the court as its a 120 mile round trip.

 

Cheers

[i hate bailiffs]

Yes I own the flat and yes if tax is due

 

I would say the council will get the liability order

they are desperate for every penny at the moment

[Banking on change]

Hi

 

Please don't take this the wrong way as I don't mean to be rude but your earlier advice was there is no Judge involved, "There will be no judge !"

 

And that the decision on liability is made by the Council on behalf of the Council which just seems ludicrous.

 

Q) who decides if I'm liable

A) council employee in that hired room in the court building

 

Yet Conniff has confirmed there is a judge and I am allowed to object. And further that the Council rep will most likely try to have me struck from the list to avoid me talking.

Your positions seem to be at opposites to each other but Conniff's is more logical to me as I've been "summonsed to appear".

 

 

The only thing you seem to agree on is that it's just a room in the court as opposed to an actual official court room.

 

If you have some more concrete reasoning I'd love to hear it but if not I'm going with the advice from Conniff and I'm going to court.

 

 

I've just printed off emails from June and September last year in which I ask about consideration for Class A exemption.

The Council failed to respond at all to my fair request. I have others yet to print again requesting clarification of the position.

 

Why then do you believe they will win?

 

I at no point said I refuse to pay. I said I request consideration for class a exemption.

 

How can they ignore you then take legal action?

 

When I asked them yesterday on the phone why I had not received a reply to my informing them of fraud can you guess what they said?

It's not their department so I should have written to the correct department.

 

Incredible. They want £175 Council tax from me and are taking court action but are not interested in a £7500 fraudulent claim!!

 

I don't see how you come to your conclusion that they will get the liability order. Whilst I have to agree they might, it's not up to them as you seem to be implying?

The fact that they are strapped for cash is not a factor in the consideration of whether I'm liable.

 

Cheers

[i hate bailiffs]

You have been to court already??

 

I have had the summons to appear before and did attend and there was no judge and yes they did get a liability order was told i cant see the judge the usual fob off

 

There is no argument for council tax

 

It either liable or not , you are liable

 

If you think you can go to court and change that i`m afraid you wont

The council would of sent reminders two times then on to a liability order

 

They have and do take people to court for a lesser amount

 

Good luck with your quest but the council have more clout behind them

[ss002d6252]

In respect of exemptions the council are restricted by legislation - unless the property fell within the definition if a Class A exemption , which is for up to 12 months, the most they could give you is a 6 month Class C exemption.

 

Queries over exemptions are not in the court's remit, you would need to deal with the Valuation Tribunal Service.

[Banking on change]

Hi

 

I have some previous court experience but not for Council tax. I recently beat a mortgage company and was awarded compensation.

So I have a fairly good grasp of preparing and argument if I have all the facts.

 

I see what you are saying in that if you're liable then you're liable but you can surely only be liable once any exception request has been assessed.

I don't know the details of your case but in mine I requested a class a exemption which has not been granted or declined. the Council have added a

two week extension to deal with the request yet are still going to court for a liability order.

 

If my request for an exemption is declined then I am willing (but not happy) to pay.

 

However, as I have chased the Council for a decision and they have failed to respond then I should not have to pay their court costs regardless

of liability as this could have been concluded with out the need for court.

 

So with reference to Conniff's post about the council trying to strike from the list 99% of those who attend, did they not do this in your case?

You were told you couldn't see the judge??

 

Thanks

[Northernpug]

With regard to the Fraud issue, I would suggest that is a separate issue to the non payment of the Council Tax. The housing benefit office may well be taking action against the party concerned but wouldn't discuss with a third party what they are doing.

 

This issue seems to relate to payment of council tax after the tenant has left and while you are repairing/decorating etc. If you raise a dispute about paying Council Tax that is otherwise due then most councils will require you to pay the appropriate tax while any dispute is looked into.

 

To quote from my local council website:

 

Please note:

 

 

• Payment of your Council Tax must continue whilst you are awaiting a decision regarding any discount, exemption, benefit claim or appeal.
  
• If your claim is successful we will write to you and send you a revised bill taking into account payments already made. If you overpay you will be entitled to a refund.
  
• Failure to pay existing instalments could result in recovery action being taken.
  

I believe the only way to stop a liability order being made is if it is served on the wrong person or the amount is wrong. If the Council have not said that they agree an extension to the six months exemption then you can't assume that they will and not pay any council tax that is due.

 

Did you contact the Valuation Office Agency to have the property removed from Council Tax Charging as without it being removed, you would still be liable for Council Tax.

 

Your only defence that I can see is to turn up and try to put across a case that the amount is wrong as you are claiming an unoccupancy discount/exemption. It may delay the order while they look into it but bottom line is that you should pay what is due until such time as the Council agree to an exemption or discount.

[i hate bailiffs]

It is a real big con the council cost for a liability order is next to nothing yet they charge a fortune another way for them to make money!!

 

i expect every case is different

 

my partner had trouble when having our son both mother and son spent a long time in hospital

once they were discharged son was admitted to intensive care i was self employed had little work at the time no sick pay no holiday pay

 

all council said at court we will still get the liability order in the mean time claim any benefits you are untitled to they have a unrealistic outlook

 

They did send bailiffs round while dealing with son in hospital that was then and all is good now:wink:

 

You may be better in raising a formal complaint with the council in writing about there lack of decision making

Once they have investigated you can take it to local government ombudsmen but a long slow process

 

They should cancel the court costs if it goes in your favor even if you get things sorted after the court case

[Banking on change]

my partner had trouble when having our son both mother and son spent a long time in hospital

once they were discharged son was admitted to intensive care i was self employed had little work at the time no sick pay no holiday pay

 

 

Wow that's horrendous treatment!!

 

You should have been able to claim vulnerable status I would have thought. In which case they should not have used bailiffs.

Glad all is okay for you now though.

 

I believe in fair play and I try my best to record and document everything.

 

The Council should not be allowed in my opinion to bully people. I accept they have a job to do but they should act responsibly

and with consideration for peoples individual situation. And when they mess up they should hold their hands up and admit it.

 

As for complaining I have already raised a formal complaint (months ago) and escalated to stage 2 complaint.

They dealt with stage one but no response so far for stage 2 which is another reason I am surprised they are going for court action.

 

My understanding is that this should not happen prior to the outcome of a dispute.

 

Any way thank you for clarifying your experience. it really helps my picture of the event.

 

I will be going to the court and I will request that they either strike out the liability order or allow me to speak to the judge.

I'll let you know the outcome.

 

I will also pursue my formal complaint. I can't let it just be ignored it has become a point of principle for me.

 

If Conniff is right and it only costs them £3 for a liability order yet they have added £120 to my costs then something is wrong as that is unfair (in my opinion).

 

Conniff if you are listening ; ) you said they pay £3 and though not moral it is legal. Can you provide any further info on how it's legal?

 

Many thanks again to you both I will be back to report on what happens.

 

As for the miss information I have recorded evidence of, I will definitely be making another formal complaint.

 

Ironically the recorded message you hear before speaking to an adviser at the council is very warm, friendly and assures you that if you are struggling they

want to help you. Then you get through and they become pitbulls. Actually I should say out of the three calls one of them was genuinely polite but the other two (including a manager) were down right rude and

gave confusing if not deliberately inaccurate information.

 

Watch this space : )

[id6052]

HB fraud

When you say your tenant was committing Housing Benefit fraud, do you mean: -

 

1. he did not pay his rent?
   
2. he was not entitled to the benefit, e.g. he was working?
   

If it is the first, not paying your rent is not benefit fraud, so the Council would not be able to do anything. You however as the landlord could (and IMO should) pursue the tenant for rent arrears.

 

CT liability orders

If you are the liable person for Council Tax, then you are expected to pay the bill. I understand that you may be questioning the bill, however you are still expected to make any payments due in the meantime.

 

If you fail to make the due payments, the Council will normally go through process of reminder for first missed payment, final reminder for second missed payment, then court summons. The purpose of the summons is to allow the Council to obtain a liability order which is in effect to get the Court to confirm you are the liable person for the debt and allow the Council to utilise stronger enforcement powers such as

 

• attachment to earnings
  
• attachment to benefits
  
• bailiffs
  
• charging orders
  
• imprisonment
  

The Council needs the liability order before it can use these powers.

I know you have been offered a lot of different advice, some of which might be appropriate from individual's experiences with one council.

However in my experience: -

 

1. it normally makes no difference to the Council whether you attend or not
   
2. the Court does not consider issues such as ability to pay, CT benefit, discounts or exemptions
   
3. most people who attend are wasting their time, unless their argument is that they should not be the liable person
   

LG Ombudsman

If the Council are taking an unreasonably protracted time to deal with an application for an exemption, you may be able to complain and seek compensation through the Local Government Ombudsman.

I am a bit confused though from your thread as to where you are in relation to exemption. It sounds as if you received a Class C exemption for 6 months which was awarded. Since then, did you: -

a) apply for an extension to Class C exemption

b) apply for a Class A exemption

c) make representations asking about the conditions for a Class A exemption

[i hate bailiffs]

attachment to earnings dependent on earnings may not be much

 

attachment to benefits around £3 per week

 

bailiffs can do little deny them a levy and nothing they can do

 

charging orders providing arrears is £1000 or more and only for the property the liability order was obtained for

 

imprisonment only for willful refusal to pay

[Banking on change]

HB fraud

 

1. it normally makes no difference to the Council whether you attend or not
   
2. the Court does not consider issues such as ability to pay, CT benefit, discounts or exemptions
   
3. most people who attend are wasting their time, unless their argument is that they should not be the liable person
   

LG Ombudsman

If the Council are taking an unreasonably protracted time to deal with an application for an exemption, you may be able to complain and seek compensation through the Local Government Ombudsman.

I am a bit confused though from your thread as to where you are in relation to exemption. It sounds as if you received a Class C exemption for 6 months which was awarded. Since then, did you: -

a) apply for an extension to Class C exemption

b) apply for a Class A exemption

c) make representations asking about the conditions for a Class A exemption

 

Hi id6052

 

Thank you for jumping in.

 

1. I guess it's much easier if no one turns uo though?

2. So I get no chance at all to defend my position?

3. There is no defence unless it is not my bill?

 

I thought in any legal process you had the right to make a defence?

 

I guess my main position on this is that the Council have for over 9 months cherry picked what they decide to respond to when I contact them and it's both unfair and negligent. While you point out that the send reminders, I have responded to their reminders and they have ignored my emails. How is this fair or legal?

 

On the subject of fraud the tenant did not pay the rent and I believe he was working too.The problem with chasing him is I don't know where he lives.

 

With regard to the Council Tax liability, initially though they were aware the property was empty the Council applied the full years cost to the account. They even went all the way to obtaining a liability order. Only after bogus bailliff visits (they claimed to have visited but did not) and several complaints via phone and email did the Council apply the class c and cancel the bill. It really shouldn't be such a struggle to get them to perform their standard duty.

 

I was not aware that you could get more than six months until someone told me. I requested consideration for class A. No reply. I asked again. No reply.

 

As there is no definition in law for "major work" the Council have some latitude in what they can accept. In my situation the property was severley damaged including flooded floor, shower wall falling down, carpets wrecked, oven damaged, fridge freezer stolen, both toilets damaged. radiators ripped off the wall, heating system control stollen, switched smashed, lighting damaged, entry door damaged and on and on and on.

 

As I understand it none of these in isolation constitute major work but together the work was major and to compound the matter couldn't be started initially due to the electricity being cut off (the tenant commited fraud with the electric supply too).I had to jump through several hoops with British Gas before they would reconnect the supply. During this whole process I was being treated for severe anxiety and depression.

 

When you add to all the above, threats to myself and my family from the tenant (who claims to have been in prison for attempted murder), which made me fearful when having to go to the property, I think the Council could grant a class a excemption.

 

You mention an extension to class c. I wasn't aware you could extend a class c. Thought it was fixed for 6 months?

 

My main confuion here is regarding the legal process. You say there is effectively no defence and the Council will get their liability order. So two questions then:

 

1. Do you disagree with Conniff saying the Council rep will try to prevent me taking to the judge and if so why?

 

2. If you look at the process of law at what point do I get to defend my position? As I stated earlier a friend owed about £3,800. He paid £2,000 and the Council rejected his offer for repayment of the balance on a monthly basis. They took him to court and he was able to put his case. He won.

 

It seems there is a different route to court that the council can take but they are choosing this liability process to avoid my chance of a defence. Any idea's how my friends situation could have been treated differently from mine? With this process there is no point in which a person can put their position to the court. I've never heard of such a bias situation. Even a statutory demand for payment has a limited time (21 days) defence period and the right to speak in court.

 

Many thanks for your help.

[kaz320]

Hi

 

I know all this advice is probably very confusing but to be honest it is a waste of time going to court the liability order will be granted. The next thing to do is to resend your complaint to the council by recorded delivery and check it has been received, this is easy to do online. Secondly send an official complaint to the council also enclosing the original complaint letter, once again send recorded delivery. Once the liability order is granted your file will be sent to a bailiff firm, you will then receive a visit from a bailiff. NEVER let them into your home, they will say they have an order from the court (which they do) but they can only gain peaceful entry into your home to levy on goods. If you refuse them entry into your home there is nothing legally they can do about this. Make sure your doors are locked and your windows closed because they can just walk in or climb in if not denied. Also make sure any vehicles owned by your family are not parked on your drive or outside your house because they like to levy on these. Also be aware if they can gain access to anything in your garden back or front they can levy on this and take them. I cannot stress enough under no circumstances let a bailiff into your home.

[Banking on change]

Hi

 

I know all this advice is probably very confusing but to be honest it is a waste of time going to court the liability order will be granted. The next thing to do is to resend your complaint to the council by recorded delivery and check it has been received, this is easy to do online. Secondly send an official complaint to the council also enclosing the original complaint letter, once again send recorded delivery. Once the liability order is granted your file will be sent to a bailiff firm, you will then receive a visit from a bailiff. NEVER let them into your home, they will say they have an order from the court (which they do) but they can only gain peaceful entry into your home to levy on goods. If you refuse them entry into your home there is nothing legally they can do about this. Make sure your doors are locked and your windows closed because they can just walk in or climb in if not denied. Also make sure any vehicles owned by your family are not parked on your drive or outside your house because they like to levy on these. Also be aware if they can gain access to anything in your garden back or front they can levy on this and take them. I cannot stress enough under no circumstances let a bailiff into your home.

 

Hi

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

The part I am having most difficulty with is if the system is as described there is no point in the time line in which I get to put a defence. I thought in the UK it was an inherent right to put forward a defence.

 

With regard to bailiffs I'm not new to dealing with them. I record everything which is why when I asked the Council for proof that the bailliff (as claimed) made two visits to my home, they close the case without reply.

 

I know bailliffs lie and I have recorded calls of their horrid methods so I'm well equiped for their visit. My family is classed vulnerable so they should not be used anyway. I'm still confused how the Council can go from invoice to reminders to liability to bailliff without any right of reply. It's nuts!!!!

 

Any way thank you I will follow your advice to send recorded copies. I did send one as far back as May 2012 but guess what? No reply.

 

I made an official complaint, they responded to initial complaint but they have a knack of misiisng out the most problematic parts of a complaint in their response. So I escalated to stage 2 and guess what? No response!!

 

It's like they just hope to wear you out and hope you'll just go away.

[i hate bailiffs]

These liability orders/court appearances i am sure is to intimidate people to pay and i expect many do pay up after reviving such a letter

 

If they don't pay up the intimidation from bailiffs or the threat of bailiffs makes them pay up

 

It is a con and only the council could come up with it How many million did they put into the Icelandic banks and loose

council tax has to be paid but

the council must think people ask to fall on hard times and loose there jobs ect