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Employment Tribunal ..Case Managment ...Whistle blowing


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Good luck today, stewpots. Please let us know how it goes.

 

My best, HB

 

Back from the CMD.

 

Mixed thoughts really, I did feel I missed legal represenation but those docs re what happens was very useful

 

The judge I think was fair and did take into account I was a lay person but the directions were led by respondents solicitors (who served on me their proposed instructions to the CMD 5 mins before the hearing)

 

What amazes me was they are proposing 6 witnesses and a 4 day Hearing !!! Which has been agreed and there is me thinking they would want to keep this low key.

 

It might be due to FSA enquiry ie they will strongly defend this or just scare tatics.

 

Do witnesses only need to be availble on a set day , which would be given nearer trail date, I left with so many unanswered questions.

 

6 witness 7 copies of buddles 4 day hearing it would cost them a fortune.

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They have increased their offer xxxx but I still think its not enough.

 

I need to do a schedule of loss but not much info on web sites.

 

Its been suggested that I might be able to claim xxxx difference current job and old job. based on fragmented CV tough job market want continuity etc That would be xxxx

 

There is massive exposure potential for this respondent at a 4 day trail

Edited by stewpots
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They have increased their offer xxx but I still think its not enough.

 

I need to do a schedule of loss but not much info on web sites.

 

Its been suggested that I might be able to claim xxxxx difference current job and old job. based on fragmented CV tough job market want continuity etc That would be xxxxxx

 

But I only worked there xxxxx but it was whistle blowing, confused. I wanted xxxx more

 

There current offer is about xxxx net old pay or around 1xxxxxx am I getting greedy ?

 

There is massive exposure potential for this respondent at a xxx

 

I think you could make a claim for xxxxx at old salary rate because, had it not been for this situation, you are more than likely to have worked for at least a year. You could ask for 18 months and then bargain down to 12.

 

On top of that you could ask for 1 year at the difference between old and new because, given the current economic climate, it may well be difficult for you to achieve the old salary level within a year. If you have any evidence of unemployment or depressed wages in your type of employment you could quote it.

 

I would try not to be embarrassed about being thought greedy. These people were on the fiddle which is why they attacked you so you are entitled to compensation.

 

Remember that it is usual to start high and bargain down. Work out the least you are willing to take and try to stay strong and refuse to settle for less. This part of the game is very difficult and the other side have plenty of practice and you are a novice.

Do the best for yourself that you can and do not let the soft side of your nature get the better of you.

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I think you could make a claim for 12 months at old salary rate because, had it not been for this situation, you are more than likely to have worked for at least a year. You could ask for 18 months and then bargain down to 12.

 

On top of that you could ask for 1 year at the difference between old and new because, given the current economic climate, it may well be difficult for you to achieve the old salary level within a year. If you have any evidence of unemployment or depressed wages in your type of employment you could quote it.

 

I would try not to be embarrassed about being thought greedy. These people were on the fiddle which is why they attacked you so you are entitled to compensation.

 

Remember that it is usual to start high and bargain down. Work out the least you are willing to take and try to stay strong and refuse to settle for less. This part of the game is very difficult and the other side have plenty of practice and you are a novice.

Do the best for yourself that you can and do not let the soft side of your nature get the better of you.

 

Sound advice

 

At the end of the day I was headhunted out of a full time secure job, I now have consultant job and that was hard to get in current climate.

 

price fixing , collusion, and impropriety is established. Their argument I didnt disclose it while at work.

 

Will reject and get on with schedule of lost and detailed words used re disclosure.

 

I am going reject offer, i need to do a cost schedule

 

I have to assume a witness need only turn up for 1 day of trial but that confuses me as that would imply a diary of 4 days before??

 

I assume i can ask for docs etc (diary entry/tender) very confusing

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Sound advice

 

At the end of the day I was headhunted out of a full time secure job, I now have consultant job and that was hard to get in current climate.

 

price fixing , collusion, and impropriety is established. Their argument I didnt disclose it while at work.

 

Will reject and get on with schedule of lost and detailed words used re disclosure.

 

I am going reject offer, i need to do a cost schedule

 

I have to assume a witness need only turn up for 1 day of trial but that confuses me as that would imply a diary of 4 days before??

 

I assume i can ask for docs etc (diary entry/tender) very confusing

 

I am not sure about witnesses. It makes sense that they would have an idea which day they would need to testify but would need to be flexible and ready to come in at short notice. I have had no experience of this any I would be interested in seeing some comments from other CAGGERS.

 

If you type something like "example of schedule of loss" into GOOGLE you will get a template of some sort which might help.

 

You might be able to claim some injury to feelings money too - say 5K- because of the unpleasantness and shock of your dismissal.

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I am not sure about witnesses. It makes sense that they would have an idea which day they would need to testify but would need to be flexible and ready to come in at short notice. I have had no experience of this any I would be interested in seeing some comments from other CAGGERS.

 

If you type something like "example of schedule of loss" into GOOGLE you will get a template of some sort which might help.

 

You might be able to claim some injury to feelings money too - say 5K- because of the unpleasantness and shock of your dismissal.

Their argument that you failed to disclose it while at work can be countered by they had sufficient reason to fear that you might disclose it so they booted you out. Do you have anything to support the argument that they knew that you knew and feared that you might blow the whistle?

 

You can ask for all the information you need and then, if it is not disclosed ask the Tribunal for an order for its release.

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Their argument that you failed to disclose it while at work can be countered by they had sufficient reason to fear that you might disclose it so they booted you out. Do you have anything to support the argument that they knew that you knew and feared that you might blow the whistle?

 

You can ask for all the information you need and then, if it is not disclosed ask the Tribunal for an order for its release.

 

I did disclose protected disclosure,in a meeting with senior management and I have a witness, a few weeks later after nothing done (after coming back from holiday) I tried to see HR and the mangement above senior management. Also my solicitor sent a document which shows senior management saw stolen documents and it was used to aid buisiness development.

Edited by stewpots
too much private info
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I did disclose protected disclosure,in a meeting with senior management and I have a witness, a few weeks later after nothing done (after coming back from holiday) I tried to see HR and the mangement above senior management. Also my solicitor sent a document which shows senior management saw stolen documents and it was used to aid buisiness development. we sent 33 docs/e-mails.

 

Their saying they refused to see me because a 'decision' had already been taken to dismiss me and two others over poor performance. However all evidence suggest good performance re 2 of us via e-mails docs suggesting one who was dismissed should be promoted. Hardly evidence of poor performance !

 

I have no e-mail saying 'I want to see you because of price fixing' etc its 'to see you over developments going on etc'

 

My solicitor (before I ran out of money) sent them a bundle of around 33 e-mails letters etc.

 

Asking for more info will help my case e.g a tender went out with the names still on of those dismissed

 

One very important question, can I ask for an additional witness post CMD. They say they closed section down after we were dismissed this is a lie it was only closed down after FSA got involved. I saw a diary entry re recruiting a new team, if they dont provide that can I get this guy to come along to cross examine him. ??

 

They forgot we had laptops at home, had we not, when we were walked off the premises, 90 percent of my evidence would not be there.

The FSA told them not to bother getting laptop back as they wanted to see it, the next day (saturday) i get an e-mail threatening police action if I dont return it. The FSA got involved on a saturday unheard of.

 

I have been told all my evidence has to be in 3rd week janaury (they are doing buddle) I assume it can be piece neal, they have seen 90% but the e-mails like FSA confirming company told to back off etc etc . They say the wont litigate through correspondence but I can assume I can ask for xyz and send stuff for muddle.

 

If I send FSA stuff now (not in original buddle might push them along abit)

 

It seems as if their solicitor is implying that disclosure is not in good faith because it was just a defensive action by an employee on the verge of getting the sack - he has no alternative but to argue that but knows that it is not true

 

Disclosing those e-mails might prompt a bigger settlement so you have nothing to lose by doing so. They would have to be disclosed soon any way. Make sure that you send them recorded. I have often used a motorbike courier as it is cheap if you do not live far from work and they do you an electronic receipt and e-mail it to you complete with signature of whoever took the delivery.

 

I would send 2 separate e-mails to the Tribunal. These would be addressed to the Respondents solicitor and both would be posted or couriered to the Respondent's solilcitor on the same day as the e-mail.

 

 

The first would ask for disclosure of any documents not yet produced by them within 7 days of date of letter. I would say that a court order for disclosure will be applied for if stuff is not received by that date. I would also remind them that the deadline agreed at CMD is January 3rd.

 

 

The second e-mail to Tribunal would be the text of a letter to the bod you want to be a witness care of his work address (I assume that you do not know his home address) asking him to be a witness and telling him that you may have to compell him to testify by getting a witness order from the Tribunal. Do not forget to give him details of the Hearing date and duration. Give him a deadline for reply.

 

AFter you have made these requests, recorded delivery and informed the Tribunal. You are in a position to ask for court order if you do not get what you want.

 

 

My solicitor told me that compelling witnessess to testify is a bad idea because they do not have to furnish a witness statement prior to appearing and you have no idea what they might say. However, it seems that your case is very likely to settle before hearing so threatening to compel the bod to testify would not harm your case in any way as the odds are that he never will.

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I would send 2 separate e-mails to the Tribunal. These would be addressed to the Respondents solicitor and both would be posted or couriered to the Respondent's solilcitor on the same day as the e-mail.

 

The first would ask for disclosure of any documents not yet produced by them within 7 days of date of letter. I would say that a court order for disclosure will be applied for if stuff is not received by that date. I would also remind them that the deadline agreed at CMD is January 3rd.

 

The second e-mail to Tribunal would be the text of a letter to the bod you want to be a witness care of his work address (I assume that you do not know his home address) asking him to be a witness and telling him that you may have to compell him to testify by getting a witness order from the Tribunal. Do not forget to give him details of the Hearing date and duration. Give him a deadline for reply.

 

AFter you have made these requests, recorded delivery and informed the Tribunal. You are in a position to ask for court order if you do not get what you want.

 

My solicitor told me that compelling witnessess to testify is a bad idea because they do not have to furnish a witness statement prior to appearing and you have no idea what they might say. However, it seems that your case is very likely to settle before hearing so threatening to compel the bod to testify would not harm your case in any way as the odds are that he never will.

 

Im really confused

 

I want additional information I haven't formally asked for yet do I do that now via e-mail to them, whats the tribunal to do with it ?

 

I e-mailed the guy pre CMD obviously no response do I say to their solicitor i need x y z or i will get tribunal to order him to attend ?

 

ps my first dislosure was months before they dismissed us.

 

"""The parties are ordered to complete disclosure by list (and inspection if necessary) by 20/1/12 what does that mean ??? ie respond to my demands so much legal crap !

 

So I via E-mail say in word doc I need X Y Z from them if No Z will need 'person' as witness etc whats with tribunal courier ???

 

Or do I have to show to tribunal 'I need' that info for my case and have 'lost it' etc etc etc

Edited by stewpots
figs off too much private detail
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All correspondence must be copied to the Tribunal. As you have no e-mail acess for the Respondent's solicitor, write an letter to the solicitor, e-mail the Tribunal and send paper copies of those letters to the Respondent's solicitor and get proof of postage. Not having e-amil access to the Respondent's representative is really awkward. Everyone else does everything by e-mail and copies othe other parties in.

 

I think list means a list of documents - i.e the names or titles of the documents - and by inspection means giving copies of the actual documents incase either party cannot tell from the list of document titles what exactly is being disclosed.

 

The courier is for proof of receipt as all your correspondence with Respondent's solicitor is by letter. Recorded delivery is the other option but, if you live close to work, the difference in price between recorded delivery and courier is about £2.50.

 

The drill with disclosure is to ask and give a deadline for reply. Then, if stuff not disclosed voluntarily, write to the Tribunal for a Court Order for release of the material. You justify your need for it to prove your case to the Tribunal not to the eEspondent's solicitor. There are examples of how to ask for a Tribunal order on the net so you can Google one and copy it.

 

The only part of this I am at all unsure of is the need for "all correspondence between parties to be copied to the Tribunal" - I sm pretty sure that this is the case, with the exception of letters headed Without Prejudice. If this is not correct, perhaps someone else could comment.

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All correspondence must be copied to the Tribunal. As you have no e-mail acess for the Respondent's solicitor, write a letter to the solicitor, e-mail the Tribunal and send paper copies of those letters to the Respondent's solicitor and get proof of postage. Not having e-mail access to the Respondent's representative is really awkward. Everyone else does everything by e-mail and copies othe other parties in.

 

I think list means a list of documents - i.e the names or titles of the documents - and by inspection means giving copies of the actual documents incase either party cannot tell from the list of document titles what exactly is being disclosed.

 

The courier is for proof of receipt as all your correspondence with Respondent's solicitor is by letter. Recorded delivery is the other option but, if you live close to work, the difference in price between recorded delivery and courier is about £2.50.

 

The drill with disclosure is to ask and give a deadline for reply. Then, if stuff not disclosed voluntarily, write to the Tribunal for a Court Order for release of the material. You justify your need for it to prove your case to the Tribunal not to the Respondent's solicitor. There are examples of how to ask for a Tribunal order on the net so you can Google one and copy it.

 

The only part of this I am at all unsure of is the need for "all correspondence between parties to be copied to the Tribunal" - I am pretty sure that this is the case, with the exception of letters headed Without Prejudice. If this is not correct, perhaps someone else could comment.

 

I have names e-mail of respondent solicitors its on the ET form and told to use that ?

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So for example, they said they had closed section down after we were dismissed. However I saw (never copied it !) a diary entry 4 days after I was dismissed that they were interviewing someone to replace me and no doubt others. This diary entry was in a senior managers diary (not connected to all of this).

 

can i ask for a copy of this and if they deny it ask judge to comply that guy to come as a witness. I dont care if he lies etc but its more pressure on them.

 

The judge said its standard respondent to do buddle so does that mean i do a buddle they incorporate that in their own buddle ?

 

will call my old solicitor on monday

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So for example, they said they had closed section down after we were dismissed. However I saw (never copied it !) a diary entry 4 days after I was dismissed that they were interviewing someone to replace me and no doubt others. This diary entry was in a senior managers diary (not connected to all of this).

 

can i ask for a copy of this and if they deny it ask judge to comply that guy to come as a witness. I dont care if he lies etc but its more pressure on them.

 

The judge said its standard respondent to do buddle so does that mean i do a buddle they incorporate that in their own buddle ?

 

will call my old solicitor on monday

1. Bundle - Every document or any other sort of evidence you intend to rely on to prove your case must be disclosed by the 20.01.2012 deadline. If your old solicitor has solid proof of what has been disclosed already, you only have to disclose any additional material you intend to rely on.

 

As for the diary entry you could say that you have seen it and tell them where it can be located and ask for a copy of it. You could also say that if a copy of the entry is not provided, you may have to ask Mr X to give evidence at the Tribunal hearing either voluntarily or in response to a Witness Order.

 

Give details of anything else they have not disclosed and remind them again of the approaching deadline for disclosure.

 

Yes all the documents to be relied on, yours and theirs are put together in one bundle. The pages are then referenced and when you present your case you have to constantly refer to where the points you are making are evidenced in the bundle. Preparing the bundle is usually given to the bigger legal firm as they have more staff to do this tedious work.

Edited by Marieleeza
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1. Bundle - Every document or any other sort of evidence you intend to rely on to prove your case must be disclosed by the 20.01.2012 deadline. If your old solicitor has solid proof of what has been disclosed already, you only have to disclose any additional material you intend to rely on.

 

As for the diary entry you could say that you have seen it and tell them where it can be located and ask for a copy of it. You could also say that if a copy of the entry is not provided, you may have to ask Mr X to give evidence at the Tribunal hearing either voluntarily or in response to a Witness Order.

 

Give details of anything else they have not disclosed and remind them again of the approaching deadline for disclosure.

 

Yes all the documents to be relied on, yours and theirs are put together in one bundle. The pages are then referenced and when you present your case you have to constantly refer to where the points you are making are evidenced in the bundle. Preparing the bundle is usually given to the bigger legal firm as they have more staff to do this tedious work.

 

Thanks for this, I found out tonight at least 3 of their 6 witnesses have not been asked to be witnesses. One is on 'leave' following FSA enquiy, another who was going to be my witness says she sent the employer a letter via solicitor over bullying/collusion etc etc so how can she be a witness,she has not been asked.

 

Like a soap opera this

Edited by stewpots
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Thanks for this, I found out tonight at least 3 of their 6 witnesses have not been asked to be witnesses. One is on 'leave' following FSA enquiy, another who was going to be my witness says she sent the employer a letter via solicitor over bullying/collusion etc etc so how can she be a witness,she has not been asked.

 

Like a soap opera this

Yes the truf will out!
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They might up that offer before the CMD starts but if it is still not enough you could hold out.

 

It looks like you are on a winner. Good luck!

I came across some references to whistleblowing cases, which might interest you

 

Additional resources

Case transcript of NHS Manchester v Fecitt and others (on the BAILII website)

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Thanks for these, just shows you how different each one is.

 

Spoke to my old solicitor today and got 15 mins of advice for free. Much clearer what I can and can't do.

 

e.g One of their witnesses is HR person I have never met, I want the one who dismissed me , who threaten via e-mail on a saturday that they will get the Police involved if I dont return company laptop. This was 1 day after the FSA told them to back off (I have all this in writing) . I can ask the judge, obvioulsy I have to prove its relevant to my case. I had 'assume' they were going to bring these people. I have another as well.

 

Also very close to trail date witnesses will have to keep these 4 days free.

 

I had assume witnesses had to be 'mates' but a hostile witness, she sent e-mails etc be interesting what they say.

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I do not think that a witness who is forced to appear by means of a Witness Order is obliged to furnish a statement prior to the hearing. Did your solicitor mention this? Am I right?

 

No they don't ,so you don't know what they will say and I think there are more restrictions on cross examination as well.

 

For me its very hard to get a grip on what i want on this, obvioulsy compensation.

 

I wanted min 3X they offered first 1X now 2X schedule of loss is 10X (I assume that was silly amount).

Solcitor today suggested not if you back it up.

 

So do I now say I want 6X to settle pre trial ?

 

You double up 3 times on roulette try for the 4th and loes the lot, need to decide when I walk away.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have decided to settle proabably too low but we have a legally binding agreemnt via COT3 and ACAS.

 

Seems they now want to make a variation to one part of the already agreed in COT3 , can they do this. Its around any future reference I require ?.

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I copied the text below from the YouGov website. It suggests that the signed COT3 is binding and that, unless you consent, no changes can be made.

 

If you agree a settlement through Acas it is binding on both you and your employer. This means that when you've signed the agreement, you have to stick to it. So make sure you don't agree to any terms of settlement unless you’re sure you want to accept them. You can't change your mind and carry on with your case once you have told Acas that you agree to the settlement.

 

If you don't have a representative, you should try to get advice on the terms of the settlement before you agree to it.

 

To find details of organisations that might be able to help you, see What help can I get with a problem at work.

 

The settlement will usually be recorded on an Acas form called a COT3. Your case will also be automatically withdrawn from the tribunal.

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