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    • I had Friday 29th in my mind so that I would get it  and not miss the Monday deadline. Is that the best course of action? Any thoughts from the forum on my plan of 'prove I'm the driver' idea? Is this silly or worth doing? 
    • Indeed. I was just thinking 'Here we go again'. NHS trusts are saying they have problems and want to move to Plan B, Indie Sage scientists are saying things need to change. But HMG isn't listening and says everything's fine.    Meanwhile Chris Whitty has at least stressed the importance of masks, ventilation and so on. 
    • I have heartbreaking news my brother has died 😪 I am well and truly heartbroken😪 I am finding this difficult to write but i need to write this for my brother, There has been a catalogue of fatal errors by this gp practice and even by the hospital before/after the sleeping pills that should never have been prescribed.   background prior to the sleeping pill wrongly prescribed   Diagnaosed with vascular dementia 2019   May 2020   Weight loss reported NO dysphagia (Without any investigation GP writes NO dysphagia (swallowing difficulties which can lead to aspiration pneimonia, weight loss) Prescribed ensure   Jun 2020   weight/diet/nutritional assessment tasked DN team     Referral out    Community Referral for Elderly Care   june 2020 In view of suspected covid infection best to defer weight check/assessment There was no suspected covid infection, how gp got this? nobody called the gp and it was uk lockdown   Jul 2020 Eating & Drinking Complaint brother eating less and losing weight   Jul 2020 Dry cough over night. white phlegm noted Diagnosis: Viral upper respiratory tract infection     Jul 2020    57 Kg weight told Gp over the phone   24 Aug 2020  1 week poor appetite & drowsiness- keeps falling asleep Decrease in appetite   25 Aug 2020 Reported to GP 6 months of steady weight loss: 14kg (June weight 66, now 50kg) NO dysphagia (how without investigating further) If GP had investigated further it would shown my brother had swallowing difficulties which was causing the weigt loss and chest infections.   Feb 2021 Presenting complaint (XaIm8) - chesty cough phlem Diagnosis: Respiratory tract infection     Mar 2021  Presenting complaint (XaIm8) - not eating or sleeping Poor appetite (lost 1 stone since then) and poor sleep   April 2021 Serious reaaction to sleeping pills - causing 2 litres of uring retention indwelling catheter as posted in this thread and problems   18 Jun 2021 chest infection   30 Jun 2021  Chest Ingection Diagnossi should finish antibiotics and plenty fluids   7Jul 2021 Complaint - struggling to swallow large capsules Weight loss/not eating drinking properly Requested liquid version or smaller size capsules   9 July complaint - Please see yesterday's entry by and task sent to , sister saying pt hasn't taken Prostate medication for 4/7, urine rention building up, sistrer concerned requesting alternative medication, small tablet form if not available in liquid, sister says it is urgent for today. Re: patient unable to swallow due to size (approx 24.2mm x 7.7mm SmPC)   10 Jul 2021    Presenting complaint  - Please see 09.07.21 entry, patient still struggling to swallow tablet, urine retention building   July 2021 Nose dripping week, swallowing mucous For the last week cough with green sputum Note previous course of antibioitcs in june for chest infection longstanding swallowing problems - BUT NOT INVESTIGATED!!!!   1 Aug 2021 Feels has chest infection. cough 2 weeks- productive green phelgm Diagnosis: Chest infection - unspecified bronchitis   10 Aug 2021   blocked sinuses/runny nose despite 2 x recent antibiotics,just finished amoxicillin +probable viral infection no further antibiotics indicated observe for now   12 Aug 2021 Presenting complaint struggling with breathing sister concerned wanting Gp to review HOME visit tomorrow   13 August Brother taken to hospital diagnosed with exacerbation of copd steroid tablets, antibiotic tablets, antibiotics into vein in arm struggled to take bloods on 3rd attempt, left with bruised vein chest xray shows pneumonia sent home 7 days meds letter for Gp requests follow up chest xray in 6 weeks (NEVER DONE)   18 August 16 Aug 2021   Presenting complaint - discuss ambulance report thinks needs home visit everyday adv sister is reassuring he did not need nebuliser *brother was put on nebuliser in hospital in august, gp is wrong) A/E attendance likely all related to current LRTI     22 August 2021 Presenting complaint (XaIm8) Home visit Pnemonia. Chest still doesnt sound clear. 1 medication finished today 2 finishing tomorrow - steroids Home visit done by GP Chest clear, good AE B/L, no resp distress HS N, calves SNT, WWP, regular pulse Abdomen SNT Diagnosis: Chest infection NOS (XE0Xs)- resolved   24 Aug 2021  Home visit Chest clear, good AE b/l Diagnosis: Hay fever - unspecified allergen (X00l9)   I then made a private appoint with a respitatory consultant, he got access to the chest xray done in August 2021 and told me my brother had pneomnia in the right lung aspiration pneomonia caused by swallowing difficulties, food liquid going down wrong way into the lungs, causing infection leading to pneaomia. This consultant gave a report of findings, also askig GP to make referral to SALTS carry out swallow assessment. This referral was done far too late by the GP over 10 days delay and only after i kept on complaining why wasnt the SALTS team coming and my brother was down to 6stone in weight. I had to go private consultant for aspiration pneomonia  diagnosis on chest xrays done in August 2021 then give that report to GP to make a SALTS referral. The previous chest infections was aspiration pneomonia but GP clearly misdianosed inc on Home Visits after the August 2021 hospital attendance.   WEIGHT COMPLAINT!! 19 Sep 2021   Presenting complaint wanting to discuss weight loss Discussed - I will task DNs to carry out these reviews as too weak to come to surgery now. Also check weight/ BP I will refer to dietitian Diagnosis: Weight loss - AFTER 12 MONTHS and after lots of complaints GP DECIDES WEIGHT to 6STONE!! decided referral to diatcian after I tell GP!   22 Sep 2021    Recieved a letter from xyz clinic 2 days ago to ask GP doctor to arrange swallowing assessment about swallowing issues GP Diagnosis: Swallowing symptoms (XE0r7) - ONLY AFTER WE TELL HIM PRIVATE CONSULTANT FINDNGS. GP did not bother to investigate all the complains I made about swallowing difficultities. I went to private consultant to get dignosis on swallowing problems, despite makings lots of complaints to GP and being ignored. I was doing the Gp's job in getting the diagnosis for swallowing problems!!   24 Sep 2021 SALTS REFERRAL made  BY GP - ONLY AFTER I WENT TO PRIVATE CONSULTANT Please advise pt's daughter that the GP has messaged the secratary to refer the pt to SALTS referral     27 Sep 2021 Presenting complaint - Presenting complaint (XaIm8) Requesting powder sachets instead of premade shakes. Patient is struggling to swallow these as liquid is rather thick. Family have purchased a few sachets of powder and find these better for him. Also mentioned patient has lost around 1 stone in weight and are concern.   28 Sep 2021 Presenting complaint - Pt having swallowing issues and pt taking Movicol sachets but still constipated as struggling to swallow down properly. DN   GP DOES Hospital Referral for Feeding/ Swallowing AFTER COMPLAINT MADE   30 Sep 2021    Presenting complaint - Unable to swallow movicol properly therefore family request another enema. requests GP to assess first as has had 2 enemas fairly recently already. ongoing swallowing issues - sister says losing weight fast. Been referred to SALT & this has been marked as urgent now.   4 October 2021    Presenting complaint - Concerned about ongoing swallowing issues ?chest infection. says chockes whilst drinking ensures- SALT referral sent E&D less leading to weight loss -Dietician referral sent Patent airways Chest clear, good AE B/L MEDICAL NEGLIGENCE - SEE 5th October!! (This GP is on audio recording telling us the chest is clear)   5th October follow up appointment with private respitatory consultant Diagnosis pneomia due to aspiration (swallowing diffuclties/dementia) Prescribed 4 months of maintenance antibiotics Diagnosis pneomia when the GP the day before said everything was clear!!     7 Oct 2021   Complaint - Why SALTS team not been for assessment, should be marked urgent brother weigh down to 5.5stone. Says spoke to SALT team last week - will be complaining as SALT referral recieved on 21/9. Apolagised for this but on system it was actually sent on 19/09/21 Diagnosis: Swallowing (Xa4M7) -> (ignored my complaints for over 2 years on swallowing problems, and put no dyspghia on my brothers record 2 years ago - when swallowing problems were going on even abck then.   10 Oct 2021   Spoke to sister who has spoke to SALT team on 02/10. Felt SALT nurse was rudee. Says nurse said appointment may take some time ?due to back log of patients in covid period GP then contacts SALTS team to try expedite appointment Diagnosis: Speech and language therapy     12 Oct 2021 Private swallowing assessment done by speech therapist because the GP and SALTS were going aound in circles and brother rapidly losing weight! Private assessment shows serious swallow problem, recommends SALTS team urgent see my brother   15 Oct 2021 Brother coughs up phelhm with blood 1 time in day, reported to GP and request home visit   16 Oct 2021 GP home visit, checks chest, says clear and nothing to worry about - on video GP says brother has blood clot in lungs, go AE and wait, tell GP brother too frail weak, weight 5stone, unable to wait in AE. Request GP make arrangement for xray, bloods, ecg at hospital so brother no need to wait in AE. GP says NO, you have to wait AE. GP will arrange ambulance to go to AE where you WILL HAVE TO WAIT even if it means waiting 6-7hours. Inform GP this is impossible. GP leaves. Calls back in 20mins says NO BEDS available, you just have to wait in AE if it means waiting 7 hours then just wait. Explain the difficulty dementia, too frail, high risk of catching bug and request GP arrange time for brother to go into hospital for bloods, xray, ecg etc, GP says no. Then turns the conversation around telling me 'so your refusing to take your brother to hpstal, if he dies its your fault, i will put that down on his records'. GP hangs the phone.   10 mins later brother collapses, ambulance called, oxygen given, stats up. Taken into hosital, where immedialtely the staff tell me your brother is emacitated dehyradted way too much, all skin and bones. Tell staff, swallow problems, weight loss, complaints to Gp, Gp not listening etc. Brother kept in overnight put onto IV fluids. Discharged the next day   few days later, brother health deteroriates, paramedics to the home, say its pneomonia, i tell them its aspiration pneonua, they agree, explain the swallow problems, weight loss. They say you need to complain to GP.   Oxygen provided, stats go up, paramedics leave 2hrs later stats drop ambulance called, oxygen given 1hhr stats go up, ambulance staff they cant leave oxygen again because 2nd time called to house. They call GP to house with injections inc morphone, which thankfully were never used. Brother passes way at home   My brother died weight was under 5stone, he was skeletone and bones, weight loss problems, swallowing problems complaints made over 2 years and nothing was done until the last couple of weeks only after I went to private consultant for diagnosis, who sent his report the ignorant gps, the same for the private speech therapist report to gp   Gp only refer to dietiacian when brother weight down under 6 stone!! In 2 years no demential assessment done, only done last 2 weeks of brothers life after I complained to GP   This is what I can remember, they will be things I have forgot to add. I am devastated.                                                                                
    • I see, thank you very much. Sorry for repeating the same questions myself! Im working on getting the quotes now
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Mobile Money (the Police claim it's a Civil matter) !!!


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I wrote to MM and demanded my car returned within 7 days or I would issue a civil claim for theft on the director of MM.

I sent it recorded on 16th Dec and they recieved it on 19th they replied today stating that they were investigating the case and had written to the police but would need more time as it was the holiday period. In fact this is the only time they have written to me they also accepted my SAR they even mentioned the possibility of the car being returned.

I will scan thier edited letter and post soon.

I wrote to the Chief Constable same time and had a reply today also stating that it has been passed to a DCI and the accusation I made with regards the theft by MM will be investigated to see if it is criminal, again when I edit I will post.

The car is, according to MM being held in a secure compound until this case is resolved.

I have sent a bill with receipts to MM for £3,800.00 up to 14th Dec 2011 for expenses incurred including legal advice and replacement car hire.

I never considered stating that the person who pretended to be me was indeed my brother in law, I work abroad a lot and he had a key to the car incase of emergencies but should never had part of my driving licence which he oblivious stole from me, it appears that he falsified any other documents required as he is a bit of a wizard on the pc.

It seems obvious now that both the police and MM may have thought that I could have been involved as one of the first questions asked by the police was, would I go all the way if it went to court, which I did. So I am sure the police know I had no involvement but thinking back on the questions asked by MM over the phone they must have had this doubt as they were aware from both myself and the police that it was my X brother in law who committed the crime.

MM stated that they paid they money to my account I sent them statement of accussed from police showing it was paid to his account, a bank will accept money in any name by transfer if account details are ok.

I get the impression now Jasper after your querie that when MM are happy that I had no involvement they will have to change their views then I need to start civil action to recoup loses.

Ill post letters soon. Any other queries feel free to ask

 

I think things are looking up.

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"I have sent a bill with receipts to MM for £3,800.00 up to 14th Dec 2011 for expenses incurred including legal advice and replacement car hire."

 

Sterling work, keep it up!!

 

"I get the impression now Jasper after your querie that when MM are happy that I had no involvement they will have to change their views then I need to start civil action to recoup loses."

 

Not so sure happy is the correct word to use here, more like when it is clearly explained to them by the police that they have stolen your vehicle.......

 

Yes unfortunately it's highly likely that you will need to raise proceedings against MM to recover your provable losses and any compensation you seek, this will be aided considerably if the police ever do get around to deciding that taking someones vehicle without permission or lawful right constitutes the criminal offence of theft. Don't expect any convictions as I'm sure this all just some terrible administrative error but the wording of any police reports could considerably help any civil action you areforced to follow.

As of 03/03/12 please do not under any circumstances wait for my further input or guidance on any current thread or defence of a court claim I might have been involved in on or through Cag.

Jasper1965

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Sounds like things are begining to kove for you - though MM should be returning the car forthwith as they have no right to title. But thats is their look out and hope it costs them in the long run.

 

Well done so far.

Be ineresting to see what the DCI comes up with.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]32448[/ATTACH]

Very fast response from Chief Constable

 

Did you write to Bournville Lane or Lloyd house?

 

Suggest you respond to that letter along the lines of:

 

Sir

 

Thank you for your prompt response dated 22nd December 2011.

 

I should just clarify that I have always asserted this to be a criminal matter, any assertion that this is a civil matter has not originated from and has at no time been perpetuated by me.

 

Mobile money took my vehicle from my property without my permission, without an order of the Court and without any other lawful claim to title.

Despite repeated demands Mobile Money have to date refused to return my vehicle.

Mobile Money originally intended to deprive me permanently of my vehicle.

I believe this to be a clear definition of theft.

That Mobile Money then offered to return my vehicle if I paid them the sum of £7,000 constitutes attempted extortion.

Mobile Money have done all this whilst undeniably in the knowledge that a third party was responsible for their loss and that they not only had no merititious claim in law against myself but that they also could not possibly have been passed true title to the vehicle as a result of the fraudulent transaction they entered into with the third party.

To prevent sale of my vehicle I have had to seek a civil injunction against mobile money at my own cost, that remains the entire extent of the civil aspect of this matter the rest is quite clearly criminal as described in statute.

Mobile Money are of course entitled to seek recompense from the perpetrator of the fraud through the civil courts, they are in no way entitled to seek or more appropriately seize such recompense from an innocent party.

 

I trust this clarifies matters as there still appears to be a slight misunderstanding over my reporting of this crime.

 

 

 

Just firmly nudge them in the right direction from the beginning it might save a game of merry go round in a few weeks when the DCI has had a look.

Edited by Jasper1965
Cheers CB!!

As of 03/03/12 please do not under any circumstances wait for my further input or guidance on any current thread or defence of a court claim I might have been involved in on or through Cag.

Jasper1965

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Thanks for this, I will let things lie over the holiday and start again on Tuesday.

It was Lloyd House BTW but the original complaint was made at south Birmingham.

I will write to the DCI based on above and hopefully arrange a meeting and take a few notes from here with me.

Lets hope the New Year holds better times for all.

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I should just clarify that I have always asserted this to be a criminal matter, any assertion that this is a civil matter has not originated from and has at no time been perpetuated by me.

 

Mobile money took my vehicle from my property without my permission, without an order of the Court and without any other lawful claim to title.

Despite repeated demands Mobile Money have to date refused to return my vehicle.

Mobile Money originally intended to deprive me permanently of my vehicle.

I believe this to be a clear definition of theft.

 

You forgot about the dishonesty element, which is of course somewhat crucial. No doubt the absence of any such evidence is the reason the police deemed it a civil matter.

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I thought the OP stated that Mobile Money were aware of the fraud, and that therefore that they had no legal contract with the OP. Surely that ticks the box for dishonesty?

"Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me". Martin Niemöller

 

"A vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a half-brick in the path of the bicycle of history". - Terry Pratchett

 

If I've been helpful, please click my star. :oops:

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We don't know what MM told the police, from their letter to the OP it seems they thought that the OP was involved. If that belief was genuine, however unreasonable, they could not have been dishonest. Whilst someone at MM might have been aware of the conviction, what evidence is there that they actual person who ordered the repossession knew of it? Could simply be poor record keeping by MM. And furthermore, a criminal conviction is not conclusive evidence of fact in a civil case, especially if the conviction was based on a confession. So the mere fact the brother in law was convicted is not binding on MM as evidence of the fraud. And anyway, how does anyone prove an entire company thinks dishonestly? Has a company ever been convicted of theft? I just don't think the OP should be wasting their time - and the police's - trying to convince them MM are thieves rather than just incompetent when there is a strong civil case which will produce the desired result.

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I don't think I'd be very wide of the mark if I described the MM offices as approx 200 square foot comprising 3 desks, 2 employee, a photo copier and a drinks cooler. We're not talking Mobil Oil or BT here we're talking a very small franchise office and once again IMO it's beyond reasonable belief that the person sitting six feet away from the person involved didn't know what was happening/had happened.

 

FWIW I don't know where they're coming from saying they don't hold computerised records, they do, and I believe they scan documents, take photos etc as part of these records.

Edited by Jasper1965

As of 03/03/12 please do not under any circumstances wait for my further input or guidance on any current thread or defence of a court claim I might have been involved in on or through Cag.

Jasper1965

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We don't know what MM told the police, from their letter to the OP it seems they thought that the OP was involved. If that belief was genuine, however unreasonable, they could not have been dishonest. Whilst someone at MM might have been aware of the conviction, what evidence is there that they actual person who ordered the repossession knew of it? Could simply be poor record keeping by MM. And furthermore, a criminal conviction is not conclusive evidence of fact in a civil case, especially if the conviction was based on a confession. So the mere fact the brother in law was convicted is not binding on MM as evidence of the fraud. And anyway, how does anyone prove an entire company thinks dishonestly? Has a company ever been convicted of theft? I just don't think the OP should be wasting their time - and the police's - trying to convince them MM are thieves rather than just incompetent when there is a strong civil case which will produce the desired result.

How about you read the thread and you will see what I told MM on the 24th November 2011.

At this point they had ample opportunity to check out the facts.

As previously posted by myself It was based on the fact that I informed them of the fraud (and not only based on a confession which you state)and invited them to confirm this with the police, they ordered the theft of the vehicle from private land 2 days later.

You ask what evidence is there that the actual person who ordered the unauthorised repossession was aware and could it be bad record keeping, what world are you living in? if this was the case should MM not have informed me of the proposed unauthorised repocession and should a court order not have been obtained by mm before removing my property from private property. I never had a letter to say anything with regards this case until this week only threating phone calls and attemps by mm of extortion.

A criminal conviction is not always evidence in fact in a civil court but were does the civil matter come into this between mm and me?

After I informed them and the police of the fraud they should have went straight to the police and if necessary take both criminal charges and civil but they done nothing but steal the vehicle to try to ensure thier own interests as they belived they had some.

I now agree that they must have belived that my original email to them was untrue so took the car , although illegally at least the held as they thought the trump card, good bussiness sense or not but please dont be so naive to think it was a case of bad record keeping.

As far as wasting the time of the police, as you satated, is concerned, had they acted correctly in the first instance and looked at the evidence properly they would have seen that an act of theft had taken place, would you like the definition of theft?

It would be worth your while to look over some of the other cases on here about MM and let you then decide if it was

a case of bad record keeping.

You ask has a company ever been convicted of theft, answer yes, lots of times. I also intend to take criminal action against the four directors as they are ultimately responsable for their employees actions.

In deed there is a very good civil case here as I can prove that mm done everything wrong in the unauthorised repocession of my car, but there is also a very good criminal case here too as the simple fact that MM were aware that an act of fraud took place they still stole my car and i intend to pursue both and claim all my expences back along with money from mm for the stress and inconvenience they have caused.

Please remember that the Police need to act on a theft complaint until the DPP say different so never feel you are wasting their time if you strongly beleive that a criminal act has taken place.

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Will be interesting to see what MM come up with in response to the SAR - as technicaly they should not be holding any information on you at all.

Yes it would be interesting to see if they send me any documents from the original fraud as they are well aware now that it was not me. This would be against the data Protection Act

I believe they can only resond to the SAR from my email on the 24th November which should still show a lot, like when was the decision made to repocess the car as I am convinced it was made between the 24th Nov and 26th when they took it.

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I don't think I'd be very wide of the mark if I described the MM offices as approx 200 square foot comprising 3 desks, 2 employee, a photo copier and a drinks cooler. We're not talking Mobil Oil or BT here we're talking a very small franchise office and once again IMO it's beyond reasonable belief that the person sitting six feet away from the person involved didn't know what was happening/had happened.

 

FWIW I don't know where they're coming from saying they don't hold computerised records, they do, and I believe they scan documents, take photos etc as part of these records.

 

I know they hold electronic docs as well as recorded phone calls.

I believe the had to produce electronic scanned docs of the original fraud to the police to use at the Magistrates court recently so it will be interesting to see thier response.

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I believe the had to produce electronic scanned docs of the original fraud to the police to use at the Magistrates court recently so it will be interesting to see thier response.

 

So before they seized your vehicle they not only knew that it wasn't you who had taken out the fraudulent loan they had even supplied documentation to the Court to help prove it wasn't you?

 

At what point does any pleading that they weren't acting dishonestly when they took the vehicle, "they were simply seizing the security YOU had awarded them" fall flat on its face? :lol:

Edited by Jasper1965

As of 03/03/12 please do not under any circumstances wait for my further input or guidance on any current thread or defence of a court claim I might have been involved in on or through Cag.

Jasper1965

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Yes it would be interesting to see if they send me any documents from the original fraud as they are well aware now that it was not me. This would be against the data Protection Act

I believe they can only resond to the SAR from my email on the 24th November which should still show a lot, like when was the decision made to repocess the car as I am convinced it was made between the 24th Nov and 26th when they took it.

 

They don't have to give you information relating to their decision to repossess the car if they don't want to. It's privileged so they are entitled to suppress it if they wish in response to an SAR, though whether they will or not is another matter. On the wider point of theft, if the police decide there is insufficient evidence to charge it will not even get as far as the CPS. If I were you I would concentrate on the civil aspect as there is no chance of a theft conviction but if you want to push it then crack on. You can always bring a private prosecution if you can't persuade the police. For my own education, can you post a link for a company being convicted of theft?

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I was MortgageWithSPML FYI I have changed my user name

 

Interesting the definition of a Company as far as criminal charges are concerned by the CPS

Definition of Company

 

4. A company is a legal person, capable of being prosecuted, and should not be treated differently from an individual because of its artificial personality.

5. A company normally means a company registered under the current Companies Act 2006; or one or more of its predecessors cited in the Act; or equivalent legislation in another jurisdiction.

6. Unincorporated bodies (for example, partnerships, and clubs) may also be prosecuted where criminal liability can be established (see Archbold [2009] paragraphs 1-78 and 1-81b).

Taking from http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/corporate_prosecutions/index.html

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That is correct but taking a company to court is like taking a person to court.

Yes I am in the process of doing that and taking the Directors to court both for Criminal and civil.

I have given MM til Friday this week to make a decision before I procede.

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Yes I am in the process of doing that and taking the Directors to court both for Criminal and civil.

I have given MM til Friday this week to make a decision before I procede.

Good stuff. Make them think about it twice before impounding cars. Hope you hit them very hard for compensation especially as your Xmas and New year were ruined! Don't forget to go after the police chief also.

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They don't have to give you information relating to their decision to repossess the car if they don't want to. It's privileged so they are entitled to suppress it if they wish in response to an SAR, though whether they will or not is another matter. On the wider point of theft, if the police decide there is insufficient evidence to charge it will not even get as far as the CPS. If I were you I would concentrate on the civil aspect as there is no chance of a theft conviction but if you want to push it then crack on. You can always bring a private prosecution if you can't persuade the police. For my own education, can you post a link for a company being convicted of theft?

 

They took the vehicle in the full knowledge that it was not theirs to take - and for their own financial advantage - that is there motive - and that is theft. Whats wih all this dishonesty nonsense - they have acted dishonestly. They have shown their dishonesty by their actions.

 

And companies do get convicted all the time - but usally for fraud. Companies by their nature dont usually steal.

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