Diddled into giving back car HELP PLEASE!! bluestone/close credit management

[applecart]

Hi HE

 

It appears to me that they served the DN on the 8th...allegedly terminated on the 22nd....yet...on the 22nd...they sent another DN....that will have acted to cancel out the DN served on the 8th..

 

The reason being, that you acted and made a token payment of £100 on the 8th...then kept to a 'promise' on the 11th....in other words....you complied with the DN served...they were legally bound to serve another DN ....the breach was treated as though it had never occurred.....the alleged 'termination' by them was also treated as though it never occurred....therefore...they can not rely that the 'termination' relating to the DN served on the 8th had any legal force at all....

 

See CCA 1974 section 87 (1) and section 89 (1)

 

Apple

[HadEnough]

Hi apple

I have never received a DN off bluestone nor do I recall or have in my possession a notice of termination.

[HadEnough]

Hi HE

 

It appears to me that they served the DN on the 8th...allegedly terminated on the 22nd....yet...on the 22nd...they sent another DN....that will have acted to cancel out the DN served on the 8th..

 

The reason being, that you acted and made a token payment of £100 on the 8th...then kept to a 'promise' on the 11th....in other words....you complied with the DN served...they were legally bound to serve another DN ....the breach was treated as though it had never occurred.....the alleged 'termination' by them was also treated as though it never occurred....therefore...they can not rely that the 'termination' relating to the DN served on the 8th had any legal force at all....

 

See CCA 1974 section 87 (1) and section 89 (1)

 

Apple

 

This is very interesting. Surely if this info is in their notes then the DN should have been included in the paperwork I received for my sar request?

[applecart]

This is very interesting. Surely if this info is in their notes then the DN should have been included in the paperwork I received for my sar request?

 

That's the point, if there was a 'termination' - they should have written to you...where's the copy of the letter? Likewise, if they sent DN's, where are the copies??

 

Notwithstanding this...you have a choice...you can write to them once again....or...send them a letter of intent ...after 14 days whip the matter before a Judge....it's up to you....let us know which step you require further assistance with : )

 

Apple

[HadEnough]

That's the point, if there was a 'termination' - they should have written to you...where's the copy of the letter? Likewise, if they sent DN's, where are the copies??

 

Notwithstanding this...you have a choice...you can write to them once again....or...send them a letter of intent ...after 14 days whip the matter before a Judge....it's up to you....let us know which step you require further assistance with : )

 

 

Apple

 

Sorry for the delayed reply, i have been away.

I think that it would be more reasonable to write once again to allow them to respond to the lack of termination and DN paperwork.

I am also wondering what my options would be when it goes to court, the amount is over £10,000 so would that mean fast track and risks of court costs from other side? Is there anyway round this such as asking a no win no fee solicitor or claiming for only £10,000. I am on working tax but that would only entitle me to fee remission...

Thanks

[applecart]

Hi Had Enough...

 

I am not called 'Applecart' for no reason : )

 

You know that I am happy to assist which so ever choice you make......

 

We have about - 7 weeks to respond... I will draft a letter for you.... let's get this ball rolling.......

 

You can as a litigant in receipt of certain benefits re-claim any application costs... so it would appear that you are ok there...

 

give me a couple of weeks....ok?.... we will still be in time.....re- your response to the DCA...ok...??

 

Apple

[HadEnough]

That's great thank you so much, you are a star!

Wouldn't have even got this far without your help.

Big donation to site should I get this money back.

[applecart]

Hi HE

 

I will post a draft letter up on the thread (they can see what is coming at them from there...and hopefully try to address it without relying on some of the posts herein that do not assist them this time)

 

It could in fact be the case, that there are many of their customers who find themselves in the same boat as you....so, hopefully they will start to get a number of letters filter through for them to address at the same time......with the intent that if they do not act positively....their name will be flagged up in the courts....that should keep them busy for quite a while.....much better they just 'deal' with this...instead of thinking they can side step the issue.....

 

I should have something ready for you over this weekend...hopefully : )

 

Apple

[HadEnough]

Okey dokey thsnks, It never crossed my mind that they'd have people trawling through bluestone threads on cag...

[applecart]

Hi HE

 

Here is a draft letter for your consideration..... : )

 

Dear [enter name]

 

14 Day Notice – Account No: [xxxxxx] - Letter before Action

 

Further to your recent communication dated [enter date shown on letter here], the contents of which are noted and documents recived duly filed. Thank you.

 

As you know I wrote to you initially with the intent that you consider the points raised and address them within the context as presented to you within the applicable Law.

 

I am not satisfied that you have done so. As a result, I do not consider that my complaint has been resolved by you.

 

I draw your attention to the fact that on the 8th April 2005, the account statement shows ‘NOD- c/sale. Reg. Cust – Letter processed’ .

 

With respect,I advise that it was legally impossible for you to terminate the agreement on the 22nd April 2005 because; even if I were to assume that you sent the Default Notice on the 8th April, It cannot be ignored that the CCA 1974 section 88 grants a period of 14 days in which a breach can be remedied.

 

In this case, the account statement confirms that on the 8th April 2005 I made a token payment of [enter one hundred pounds here] and promised to pay an additional amount of [enter the amount you promised to pay here if you remember how much it was] by the 11th April. You will note that it is on record that on the 11th April 2005, the promise was adhered to.

 

The basic legal principle of the CCA 1974 section 88 provides that the breach was duly remedied and treated as not having occurred.

 

The overall effect of the events leading to the purported termination of the agreement is as aforesaid an all together 'legal impossibility'; especially in this case where the evidence confirms the Default Notice was wholly inactive.

 

Therefore, your misplaced reliance that the agreement was terminated fails to avoid your liability in this case.

 

I refer you to my letter of the 3rd July and request that you reconsider your liability to address this matter in the sum of [enter amount you seek to settle the matter here] to resolve my complaint.

 

I look forward to receipt of a cheque in the sum of XXXX within the next 14 days.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

[sign]

[transient]

Would just like to point out the attached documents in post # are not redacted sufficiently. If I zoom in on the document the type on top of the OP's name and address is revealed clearly. Could these be redacted and reattached

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?329229-Diddled-into-giving-back-car-HELP-PLEASE!!-bluestone-close-credit-management&p=4262025&viewfull=1#post4262025

[Gaston Grimsdyke]

Hi HE

 

Here is a draft letter for your consideration..... : )

 

Dear [enter name]

 

14 Day Notice – Account No: [xxxxxx] - Letter before Action

 

Further to your recent communication dated [enter date shown on letter here], the contents of which are noted and documents recived duly filed. Thank you.

 

As you know I wrote to you initially with the intent that you consider the points raised and address them within the context as presented to you within the applicable Law.

 

I am not satisfied that you have done so. As a result, I do not consider that my complaint has been resolved by you.

 

I draw your attention to the fact that on the 8th April 2005, the account statement shows ‘NOD- c/sale. Reg. Cust – Letter processed’ .

 

With respect,I advise that it was legally impossible for you to terminate the agreement on the 22nd April 2005 because; even if I were to assume that you sent the Default Notice on the 8th April, It cannot be ignored that the CCA 1974 section 88 grants a period of 14 days in which a breach can be remedied.

 

In this case, the account statement confirms that on the 8th April 2005 I made a token payment of [enter one hundred pounds here] and promised to pay an additional amount of [enter the amount you promised to pay here if you remember how much it was] by the 11th April. You will note that it is on record that on the 11th April 2005, the promise was adhered to.

 

The basic legal principle of the CCA 1974 section 88 provides that the breach was duly remedied and treated as not having occurred.

 

The overall effect of the events leading to the purported termination of the agreement is as aforesaid an all together 'legal impossibility'; especially in this case where the evidence confirms the Default Notice was wholly inactive.

 

Therefore, your misplaced reliance that the agreement was terminated fails to avoid your liability in this case.

 

I refer you to my letter of the 3rd July and request that you reconsider your liability to address this matter in the sum of [enter amount you seek to settle the matter here] to resolve my complaint.

 

I look forward to receipt of a cheque in the sum of XXXX within the next 14 days.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

[sign]

 

Check what section 88 said in 2005. I think you'll find that the period for compliance was less than 14 days; it was increased to 14 days by the 2006 Act.

 

Did the OP clear the arrears in full by 11 April, or just comply with some promise to pay some of the arrears? Obviously only discharging the full arrears could have remedied the breach.

[bhall]

Check what section 88 said in 2005. I think you'll find that the period for compliance was less than 14 days; it was increased to 14 days by the 2006 Act.

 

Did the OP clear the arrears in full by 11 April, or just comply with some promise to pay some of the arrears? Obviously only discharging the full arrears could have remedied the breach.

 

I think this is what you are referring too

 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1508/schedule/2/made

 

SCHEDULE 2

PROVISIONS COMING INTO FORCE ON 1ST OCTOBER 2006

 

Section 14(1)Substitution of 14 days for seven days where it occurs in section 88 of the 1974 Act (contents and effect of default notice)

[HadEnough]

Would just like to point out the attached documents in post # are not redacted sufficiently. If I zoom in on the document the type on top of the OP's name and address is revealed clearly. Could these be redacted and reattached

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?329229-Diddled-into-giving-back-car-HELP-PLEASE!!-bluestone-close-credit-management&p=4262025&viewfull=1#post4262025

 

Oh dear I see I have missed it. Thanks for pointing this out. Will see if I can remove them or edit.

[HadEnough]

Hi HE

 

Here is a draft letter for your consideration..... : )

 

Dear [enter name]

 

14 Day Notice – Account No: [xxxxxx] - Letter before Action

 

Further to your recent communication dated [enter date shown on letter here], the contents of which are noted and documents recived duly filed. Thank you.

 

As you know I wrote to you initially with the intent that you consider the points raised and address them within the context as presented to you within the applicable Law.

 

I am not satisfied that you have done so. As a result, I do not consider that my complaint has been resolved by you.

 

I draw your attention to the fact that on the 8th April 2005, the account statement shows ‘NOD- c/sale. Reg. Cust – Letter processed’ .

 

With respect,I advise that it was legally impossible for you to terminate the agreement on the 22nd April 2005 because; even if I were to assume that you sent the Default Notice on the 8th April, It cannot be ignored that the CCA 1974 section 88 grants a period of 14 days in which a breach can be remedied.

 

In this case, the account statement confirms that on the 8th April 2005 I made a token payment of [enter one hundred pounds here] and promised to pay an additional amount of [enter the amount you promised to pay here if you remember how much it was] by the 11th April. You will note that it is on record that on the 11th April 2005, the promise was adhered to.

 

The basic legal principle of the CCA 1974 section 88 provides that the breach was duly remedied and treated as not having occurred.

 

The overall effect of the events leading to the purported termination of the agreement is as aforesaid an all together 'legal impossibility'; especially in this case where the evidence confirms the Default Notice was wholly inactive.

 

Therefore, your misplaced reliance that the agreement was terminated fails to avoid your liability in this case.

 

I refer you to my letter of the 3rd July and request that you reconsider your liability to address this matter in the sum of [enter amount you seek to settle the matter here] to resolve my complaint.

 

I look forward to receipt of a cheque in the sum of XXXX within the next 14 days.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

[sign]

 

Hi Apple,

Thank you for the letter.

I have a few questions if you don't mind clarifying:

Firstly the threads that follow this letter are concerning me and I wondered if you could tell me if they are relevant to sending this letter? (I am struggling to keep up with the legal jargon and arguments being used...)

You haven't mentioned that I have never received any termination or DN in my SAR or originally so wondered if I should put that in as surely there was no termination without evidence.

And finally, what sum am I entitled to should they be liable due to this error on their part? The total cost for the car was £12000, I still owe £750 to Bluestone as I put the account into dispute and stopped paying them back last year. If I am claiming back the whole amount I am worried that should I go court I may be risking having to pay court costs from the other side should I be unsuccessful. The car amount before interest was £10000 but would a judge look unkindly on a claim if its not the total amount?

sorry if these questions seem daft...

[applecart]

Check what section 88 said in 2005. I think you'll find that the period for compliance was less than 14 days; it was increased to 14 days by the 2006 Act.

 

Did the OP clear the arrears in full by 11 April, or just comply with some promise to pay some of the arrears? Obviously only discharging the full arrears could have remedied the breach.

 

Good Point Gaston - Thank you : )

 

My thoughts are that any DN could only include the actual amount as in 'breach'....the OP could not have been in 'breach' of any amount that was not yet 'due'....so, it's unlikely to have included the total outstanding amount of credit as an 'arrears' amount in the DN....your comments on that would be appreciated if you think differently??

 

If there was a 'promise' made and to be considered to be in remedy of the 'breach' as negotiated between the Creditor and the OP....then whatever that was...it was honoured on the 11th April 2005.

 

The applicable Law pre 2006 still allowed 7 days in which any purported 'breach' could be remedied....to have been considered to be in 'breach' on the 8th and then; evidence on record as showing that the 'breach' was honoured by the 11th is well within that 7 day time frame....

 

Without more....I think the letter addresses this issue should it arise...

 

Apple

[applecart]

Hi Apple,

Thank you for the letter.

I have a few questions if you don't mind clarifying:

Firstly the threads that follow this letter are concerning me and I wondered if you could tell me if they are relevant to sending this letter? (I am struggling to keep up with the legal jargon and arguments being used...)

 

I understand, I can imagine how confusing it may be for you....but generally all we are doing with this last letter is responding to the creditors denial of any liability....they say they had every right to terminate your agreement... and that they did so legally....the letter says basically:.."sorry, but you are wrong...please look again and you will see that the termination was not lawfully conducted....you owe me my money back"

 

You haven't mentioned that I have never received any termination or DN in my SAR or originally so wondered if I should put that in as surely there was no termination without evidence.

 

Yes, I Know.....there is no need to mention that fact at this point.....we will only bring that up in the event the matter has to be taken to court....do not amend the letter to include the fact you do not have a termination letter or DN or the fact that they were unable to send them as party to your request under the SAR..ok?

 

And finally, what sum am I entitled to should they be liable due to this error on their part? The total cost for the car was £12000, I still owe £750 to Bluestone as I put the account into dispute and stopped paying them back last year.

 

Check your letter sent on the 3rd July....also read back through this post...there was guidance from Caggers as to the amounts you need to include....add it up and use that as the 'sum' you want back..... (if I am wrong on that, please let me know - or if anyone can help you further, I'm hopeful they will do so)

 

If I am claiming back the whole amount I am worried that should I go court I may be risking having to pay court costs from the other side should I be unsuccessful.

 

There will no application made to court unless you stand more than a 50% chance of success.....that is the same with any proceedings....you never apply to court unless you are as sure as you can be that the 'facts' you submit and the evidence will provide you with a 50%+ chance of success......based on what you have submitted here on this thread.....it would appear that the facts, the evidence and the applicable law are presenting you with that %)%+ chance of success.....ultimately it would always be up to a Judge to decide your case.....you must consider all that is posted here and way up the pros and cons......(posters on the CaG are not intended to pop along to court with you (regrettably) so, ultimately it would be up to you..... I know it can be daunting, but you must trust the Law and how it applies to your personal situation....

 

The car amount before interest was £10000 but would a judge look unkindly on a claim if its not the total amount?

 

You are not basing your claim on the price of the Car..... a Judge will consider whatever you put before him...so long as you are as sure as you can be that the amount claimed is your entitlement....he may decide that you are entitled to more than you state.....don't stress.....work out your figures....post them up.....there is a wealth of experience on the CaG that will guide you......

 

sorry if these questions seem daft..

 

Not at all....if you don't ask, you won't get alternative opinions posed....which would only serve to reduce your ability to make the best kind of informed decision as you possibly could to serve you and your personal interests.... : )

.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Other Caggers, will hopefully lend their own advise and experiences to assist you further : )

 

Apple

[applecart]

I think this is what you are referring too

 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1508/schedule/2/made

 

SCHEDULE 2

PROVISIONS COMING INTO FORCE ON 1ST OCTOBER 2006

 

Section 14(1)Substitution of 14 days for seven days where it occurs in section 88 of the 1974 Act (contents and effect of default notice)

 

Thanks for this Ben.... : )

 

Apple

[Gaston Grimsdyke]

Good Point Gaston - Thank you : )

 

My thoughts are that any DN could only include the actual amount as in 'breach'....the OP could not have been in 'breach' of any amount that was not yet 'due'....so, it's unlikely to have included the total outstanding amount of credit as an 'arrears' amount in the DN....your comments on that would be appreciated if you think differently??

 

If there was a 'promise' made and to be considered to be in remedy of the 'breach' as negotiated between the Creditor and the OP....then whatever that was...it was honoured on the 11th April 2005.

 

The applicable Law pre 2006 still allowed 7 days in which any purported 'breach' could be remedied....to have been considered to be in 'breach' on the 8th and then; evidence on record as showing that the 'breach' was honoured by the 11th is well within that 7 day time frame....

 

Without more....I think the letter addresses this issue should it arise...

 

Apple

 

Yes, to remedy the breach the arrears set out in the DN are what needs to be paid, not any amounts that have not yet contractually fallen due. The only way to remedy the breach would have been to pay those arrears in full. If the OP made an arrangement with the creditor to pay them beyond the expiry date of the DN, partial compliance with that would not mean the breach was remedied. At best it would be an agreement for the creditor to forbear from terminating the agreement, but that forbearance would cease if the arrangement was breached. Was there actually an arrangement or just a promise by the OP?

[HadEnough]

Thank you for answering these. I will definitely leave the letter alone, I was just curious as to why it wasn't put in. I thank you for your patience.

I have forgotten about the amounts being discussed earlier so I'll have another read of the thread to refresh my memory and see what I can come up with.

Just wish I could get my head round it better.

I will post my workings out before I enter the figures in the letter.

[bhall]

Thanks for this Ben.... : )

 

Apple

 

Your very welcome Apple.

 

Always a pleasure to confirm what the legislation actually states.

 

Ben

[HadEnough]

Well, I finally got chance to read through my thread and I am still at a lossas to what sums to ask be refunded to me.

I read the 3rd of july letter.

apple as far as I can make out its saying I am entitled to claim back half of the total agreement as that is what should of happened had I terminated the agreement myself. ( is this correct? Legal wording is like a foreign language to me)

Other posts state I am entitled to all sums paid to Bluestone while others say I am entitled to all of it back.

I need to send this letter asap so any guidance on which is the best figure to use is appreciated.

[HadEnough]

I have read through again and I have decided to ask for all sums paid to bluestone be refunded.

 

I think this is reasonable as that is the financial position I would have been in if I had voluntarily terminated.

 

I will be requesting £5224 plus interest at agreement rate of 8.1%.

 

I'll be sending the letter Monday so any objections my plans please feel free to voice.

[HadEnough]

Hope this helps?

 

Other Caggers, will hopefully lend their own advise and experiences to assist you further : )

 

Apple

 

Hi Apple,

I done some workings out and I've done it in two lots.

 

The payments per month I have used the compound interest monthly calculator and the claimed car auction cost I have used a simple interest single payment calculator.

 

Please can you advise if this is correct as I really need to send this this week and I terrified I have worked it out wrong.

Thanks

[dx100uk]

your payments can only be reclaimed at simple int 8% not compounded AFAIK

 

the auction cost if it had additional int added and ran for months at their rate then that

 

dx