Diddled into giving back car HELP PLEASE!! bluestone/close credit management

[HadEnough]

Ok but I only have my scanned copy at the mo.

I need to find the original which I have put in a 'safe' place.

 

On my scanned copy there is no line through it and no sig at bottom of the page,

it is the customer copy of the original agreement

but the line is so prominent that it would have gone all the way through.

 

The only issue with the PPI aspect is that I can find no evidence of paying it.

unless it is part of the car price on the agreement.

 

The strange thing is both my ex-partner and I remember being told I had to have it when I bought the car...

[HadEnough]

I have just received a call from Bluestone.

She asked if she could speak with me and then asked me to answer the security questions. Of course I refused and asked that they corespond in writing.

 

She said we have and as I haven't replied that is why they are calling.

She asked for my address again to send letters to check its correct.

I said I am composing a letter at the moment which i will send asap.

 

She then asked for my date of birth, I realised she was sneakerly trying to get me to answer the security questions

so I said I knew what she was trying to do and she said 'well, you have given me two security answers now anyway so you might as well answer this one'

 

I said that I have just told her that I will not discuss this over the phone and to put it in writing,

 

I then hung up feeling a bit foolish for being tricked...

[HadEnough]

The 6 year point: The Finance Company must keep documents for 6 years AFTER an account is closed, was this the case here?

 

I am now getting bombarded with calls and texts from BCM. Ive been on holiday so need to get my letter finshed and sent asap.

Brigadier: if you can spare the time I would appreciate any input you can give.

Thanks

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I think you need to make a formal complaint quoting the OFT Guidance on Debt Collection 2003/2102 which says that they must honour your request as to when, where and how you want to be contacted.

[HadEnough]

Ok thanks Brigadier, I will get that sent off however, I would like your view on the whole issue that I've summarised above if I possible please. Iknow I have been cash cowed but dont know what I may (if anything) be entitled to claim back. As the original agrreement states that I could terminate the contract, pay only arrears and hand car back if i have paid over the amount necessary(which I had) then I have been mis-leld by the original creditor too as I was never given that choice.

I can post my letter so far if that will help. (No laughing though, I'm no letter writer.

Thanks for your time.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Ok thanks Brigadier, I will get that sent off however, I would like your view on the whole issue that I've summarised above if I possible please. Iknow I have been cash cowed but dont know what I may (if anything) be entitled to claim back. As the original agrreement states that I could terminate the contract, pay only arrears and hand car back if i have paid over the amount necessary(which I had) then I have been mis-leld by the original creditor too as I was never given that choice.

I can post my letter so far if that will help. (No laughing though, I'm no letter writer.

Thanks for your time.

Good morning HE., yes of course I'll look through this for you and help with the letter.

 

Will be on it a little later(car wont start) so fixing that.

[HadEnough]

This the letter I have drafted so far outlining basically everything that has happened since the arrears were accrued. It does ramble a bit but I wanted to ensure I have all the facts.

First National Motor Finance - PolicyNumber:

DearSir or Madam,

Thank you foryour letter in response to my second letter requesting PPI charges to berefunded. I acknowledge receipt of the alleged crossed out PPI document youhave enclosed in this letter and I have enclosed a scanned copy of the originaldocument I have in my possession showing clearly no line through the paperwork.

In responseto your request for the remainder of the balance you state that I owe, I amdisputing this as I believe there has been a number of wrong doings by yourcompany. You have failed to supply me with all documentation relating to thisalleged debt, stating in a letter I received on / / that you are under no obligation to supplyanything beyond six years. This is incorrect according to the Data ProtectionAct 1998 you are legally required to supply all information you hold on me. Ihave consulted the Information Commissioner to verify. Please supply me withALL relevant information you have on me including evidence of the sale of thecar (which I have never received even though I did request one when the car wastaken). I have never been supplied with a deed of assignment or a statement ofaccount. I have also checked all credit reference agencies to find evidence ofthe alleged debt and there is no record of it in last six years. I find thisstrange that an active debt which is still outstanding is not recorded with anyof the credit agencies.

I believethat I have been deceived deliberately from the beginning as I was informedthat the collection agent was actually an advisor whom was visiting to discussthe options for clearing the arrears. He gave me no option but to pay theoutstanding of £849.68 plus the final balloon payment when in fact the £849.68arrears was all I needed to pay back to you. I did offer to pay the £849.68 asby then I had re-mortgaged my property to fund it and I had explained what washappening with the mortgage prior to the visit.

I was toldthat I had not paid enough to terminate the agreement as the contract I havenow found states that I could have done this had I paid over £6256.81 which Ihad. The agent also was adamant that the only option I had was to voluntarilysurrender the vehicle otherwise he would start court proceedings immediatelyand I would incur court costs and a CCJ. I believe that vital information thatwas in the original agreement was deliberately kept from me in order to securea voluntary surrender. I asked that as I had paid so much that I surely I hadmore rights and asked to see the agreement as I had misplaced mine when I movedhouse. He told me that he did not have it with him and that I was wrong as Ihad not paid enough. Now I have a copy of the agreement it clearly states thatI had a right to terminate the agreement and owed only any overdue payments aslong as I have paid £6256.81. Again this option was withheld from me and hasnever been offered when I have spoken with agents on the phone about thearrears preceding this visit. I do have a witness to the whole discussion whowill verify everything that was said.

As a businessyou have a responsibility to deal fairly with me, within the law and within theterms of the contract. As a respectable firm, I believed you were acting withinthis framework, and should have provided me with all the options available tome without giving misleading/untrue advice/instructions. As I now have evidencethat there were other options and I was mislead I now revoke my voluntarysurrender and ask that you refund me in full.

If I do not receive a favourable response from youwithin two weeks I will pursue this claim through the courts.

Yours faithfully,

[HadEnough]

i want to know what legal evidence or argument i can use and basically what I can claim back if anything.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi He, the content of the letter is fine, I would suggest that you structure it in logical order by using ''bullet ponts''

to emphasise each occurrence what you consider wrong with their version of events.

[Peterbard]

I use this one, it is primarily for settlement calculation, but if you put in the full term of the loan it gives the correct result

 

http://www.financecalcs.co.uk/Calcs/Settlement.php

[dx100uk]

i'll do something later

that is by far not strong enough

they've had you blind

and with PPI

 

its absolutely disgusting that they admitted on the phone

that they had no paperwork

and you actually owed NOTHING

when they started to fleece you when they sent the doorstepper around.

 

more later.

 

dx

[HadEnough]

Thanks Brigadier, will do.

 

Is it in this letter that I should state that I want refunding?

 

Dodgeball: I've checked on the calc url you posted thank you and input the figures however, it says 0.0% APR when I calculate it...

 

The contract states 8.1% APR. This is even more confusing.

 

It does say that a settlement figure is £5,433.47.

 

Are you implying that that is the figure I can ask for back?

 

My thoughts were to claim back the original figure they have on their paperwork minus the arrears that I did owe plus interest charges at the contract amount...

 

The amount was £5224, so minus the arrears will be £4375.17.

 

If this is the case which would be the best cag spreadsheet to use?

All help is deeply appreciated.

Dx: If you have anything I can add that would be great.

[dx100uk]

I've not got time to trawl the whole thing

 

you should

head your letter FORMAL COMPLAINT

put their ref number and the FNM a/c number.

 

I request you open a formal complaint through your complaint proceedure

upon the way yourselves & FNM plc treated me during the period from xx/xx/xx till today.

 

by

bullet point

spoofed into VS

spoofed into paying a debt not owed.

 

etc etc

no waffle

 

let them reply first before writing the chapter and verse

 

dx

[Peterbard]

Thanks Brigadier, will do.

 

Is it in this letter that I should state that I want refunding?

 

Dodgeball: I've checked on the calc url you posted thank you and input the figures however, it says 0.0% APR when I calculate it...

 

The contract states 8.1% APR. This is even more confusing.

 

It does say that a settlement figure is £5,433.47.

 

Are you implying that that is the figure I can ask for back?

 

My thoughts were to claim back the original figure they have on their paperwork minus the arrears that I did owe plus interest charges at the contract amount...

 

The amount was £5224, so minus the arrears will be £4375.17.

 

If this is the case which would be the best cag spreadsheet to use?

All help is deeply appreciated.

Dx: If you have anything I can add that would be great.

 

HI

If you enter your total credit and your repayments and put 36 weeks (the same as the full term) it should return the effective APR so that you can check your agreement. Put the balloon payment in the final payment box.

[HadEnough]

Ok, thanks Dx. should I work out the amount and put that in or wait until I receive a response?

 

I did as you say Dodgeball and it still states 0.0%. I definiately paid interest though

[Peterbard]

Wierd

 

 

I have just done the calculation using your figures and it gives an APR of 8.1% total paid £12113.62 i used 37 months because of the balloon payment but it should not make much difference on 36

[Peterbard]

Reading through your letter, it is worth pointing out that in order to VT a car under the provisions of section 99-100 of the CCA you do not to have paid 50%, the act says that 50% of the total price plus any arrears will be due on termination.

You can terminate at any time and they would have to chase you for this amount. Most garages try not to acknowledge this but it is the case nevertheless.

[HadEnough]

Aah I see, If that's the case then they should have advised me to terminate it as soon as I got into financial difficulty. I don't know why the calc not working for me. Two of us have checked it but thanks for looking for me. The figure you got is correct, I'm just a bit confused now on what sum to claim back.

[Peterbard]

Aah I see, If that's the case then they should have advised me to terminate it as soon as I got into financial difficulty. I don't know why the calc not working for me. Two of us have checked it but thanks for looking for me. The figure you got is correct, I'm just a bit confused now on what sum to claim back.

 

Unfortunately they are under no obligation to tell you of your rights but all you would have had to do was to notify them in writing of your intent.

 

As said earlier if you have paid over on third of the contract price, they should have issued you with a default notice before proceeding with any enforcement action, this would have given you 14 days to remedy before they could even have applied to the court for an order.

 

Even then you could still have VTd within the default period.

 

By repossessing your car in this way they are guilty of conversion, which is the civil law version of theft.

[HadEnough]

Unfortunately they are under no obligation to tell you of your rights but all you would have had to do was to notify them in writing of your intent.

 

As said earlier if you have paid over on third of the contract price, they should have issued you with a default notice before proceeding with any enforcement action, this would have given you 14 days to remedy before they could even have applied to the court for an order.

 

Even then you could still have VTd within the default period.

 

By repossessing your car in this way they are guilty of conversion, which is the civil law version of theft.

 

Ok, for this is my letter. It's more or less the same but i've posted anyway in case anything jumps out to anyone thats wrong with it or there is anything I can add. I 've added the formal complaint part and bullet pointed all issues. I have read a little on coversion Dodgeball, is this something I should mention in the letter?

Formal Complaint

First National Motor Finance - Policy Number: 10099294272232

Dear Sir or Madam,

I request you open a formal complaint through your complaint procedure

upon the way yourselves & First National Motor plc treated me during the period from 11/03/05 till today.

My reasons are stated below.

· I believe that I have been deceived deliberately from the beginning as I was informed that the collection agent was actually an advisor whom was visiting to discuss the options for clearing the arrears. He gave me no option but to pay the outstanding of £849.68 plus the final balloon payment when in fact the£849.68 arrears was all I needed to pay back to you. I did offer to pay the£849.68 as by then I had re-mortgaged my property to fund it and I had explained what was happening with the mortgage prior to the visit.

· I was told that I had not paid enough to terminate the agreement as the contract I have now found states that I could have done this had I paid over £6256.81 which I had.

· The agent also was adamant that the only option I had was to voluntarily surrender the vehicle otherwise he would start court proceedings immediately and I would incur court costs and a CCJ.

· I believe that vital information that was in the original agreement was deliberately kept from me in order to secure a voluntary surrender.

· I asked that as I had paid so much that I surely I had more rights and asked to see the agreement as I had misplaced mine when I moved house. He told me that he did not have it with him and that I was wrong as I had not paid enough. Now I have a copy of the agreement it clearly states that I had a right to terminate the agreement and owed only any overdue payments as long as I have paid £6256.81. Again this option was withheld from me and has never been offered. I have spoken with agents on the phone about the arrears preceding the ‘debt collector’s’ visit and have never once been given this option. I do have a witness to the whole discussion who will verify everything that was said.

· I have checked all credit reference agencies to find evidence of the alleged debt and there is no record of it in the last six years. I find this strange that an active debt which is still outstanding is not recorded with any of the credit agencies.

· I sent a Subject Access Request that requires you by law to send all relevant information that you hold on me and my account. You have failed to supply me with all documentation relating to this alleged debt, stating in a letter I received on 31/01 /2012 that you are under no obligation to supply anything beyond six years and that the original documents have been destroyed. This is incorrect as you are legally required to supply all information you hold on me and retain all documents relating to this account for six years after the account is settled. I have consulted the Information Commissioner to verify.

· I have never been supplied with a deed of assignment or a statement of account.

· When I sent a letter requesting the PPI charges back, the document you declared had been destroyed when I made the lawful SAR arrived in the post.

· The above document for PPI agreement that I received has a thick pen line through the middle of the page and my signature. The one I have enclosed is a scanned copy of the original document I have in my possession showing clearly no line through the paperwork.

· You have violated the rules of the OFT which state that: ‘a debt collector should NOT harass you by calling frequently or making threatening statements or gestures’. I have received a phone every day for the past three weeks.

As a business you have a responsibility to deal fairly with me, within the law and within the terms of the contract. As a respectable firm, I believed you were acting within this framework, and should have provided me with all the options available to me without giving misleading and untrue advice or instructions. As I now have evidence that there were other options and I was mislead I now revoke my voluntary surrender and ask that you refund me in full plus interest.

Please also supply me with ALL relevant information you have on me including evidence of the sale of the car (which I have never received even though I did request one when the car was taken).

If I do not receive a favourable response from you within two weeks I will pursue this claim through the courts.

[Peterbard]

You may wish to include something like this.

 

On taking advice I find that I was severely misled by your agent in regard to my rights under the Consumer Credit Act and in respect to re-possession of the car.

 

I was given to believe that my only option was to immediately relinquish ownership of the vehicle.

 

This is incorrect.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 90(b) states that after on third of the contract price had been repaid

you had no entitlement to recover goods without an order from the court (section 90©)

 

I was also informed that I did not have the right to voluntarily terminate under section 99 of the act.

 

Under section 91(b) of the act (consequences of recovering goods before the agreement has been properly terminated),

 

it states,

 

” The debtor shall be released form all liability under the agreement, and be entitled to reclaim from the creditor all sums paid by the debtor under the agreement.”

 

Please respond within seven days with you proposals for repaying this sum to prevent the commencement of further recovery action.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Dodgeball

[Peterbard]

This is also quite good background reading

 

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/factsheet.php?page=16_hire_purchase_debt

[HadEnough]

Thanks for the input, I have added this to my letter. It seems that the main issue that I need to prove is that they have broken the terms of the contract by deliberately withholding my rights to terminate. It is obvious that anybody in this position would have written to terminate as soon as the financial problems started. I spoke many times with First National, describing my current situation and I even said that was going to try and sell it in order to rectify it. They never mentioned anything then about my rights or that I wasnt allowedto sell the car as the national debt line states.

The problem is whether a judge will see it this way or whether he/she will simply say I surrendered and so have given my permission regardless and I should have retained my copy of the agreement safe...

[Peterbard]

I would have to disagree.

In my opinion the main cause for action is the fact that they repossessed your car without the required statutory authority.

 

They cannot take possession of goods under a HP agreement when there has been over one third of the credit paid unless the contract has been properly terminated and they have secured an order form the court.

 

If they do they have to refund all payments made under the agreement. This is your main argument in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately they do not have to advise you of your rights to voluntary termination, and to be honest it suits your interests better to say that the agreement was not terminated anyway.

[dx100uk]

yes must agree

 

if you look at the comms log carefully

they even make ref to the fact that they KNEW it was 1/3rd paid.

 

LO605 22/04/2005 term C/S reg 1/3 pd[registered 1/3rd paid]

 

also I notice they even noted YOU had the car in for repair - that's THEIR problem its an HP agreement [their car!]

 

dx