Unmarked Parking Bay and penalty

[Elisabetta]

Hello, I have parked my car on a road without parking bay markings only to find on my return a PCN on my windscreen.

 

I have noticed then a sign at the entrance of the road stating " Permit holders SB, parking only past this point Mon-Sat 8am-6.30pm" .

 

There are no other signs along the road and the sign has only been put there recently (about a week or so prior to the PCN).

 

There is only a double yellow line on the first 2-3 meters but apart from that, no other markings.

 

I have contested the PCN but they have not cancelled it stating on their letter

 

" According to the Civil Enforcement Officers notes the vehicle was booked for being parked without displaying a valid Permit in a Permit Parking Bay" .

 

There was no bay! Please advise.

 

Thank you.

[dx100uk]

can we check this ticket does only say:

 

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE

 

dx

[Elisabetta]

Hi,

 

it says Traffic Management Act 2004 followed by PCN.

 

Thanks.

[dx100uk]

sorry i repied to the wrong thread

 

guys will be up soon to help

 

can you post a google map link?

so's they can look?

 

dx

[Elisabetta]

Hi dx,

 

Sorry, the site doesn't allow me to post a link because I have not had enough posts (min 10 requirement).

 

The address is Summit Road, London, E17

 

I hope this is enough.

 

Thanks.

[Jamberson]

There's no signs on Google Maps, but if the permit parking only came in recently, that's no surprise.

 

There do exist streets without bays, and with a covering sign at the entrance, but whether this is one, is hard to say. Perhaps someone can advise if the road markings (or lack of) would be specified in the Traffic Order for that road?

[Zamzara]

As far as I am aware a sign at the entrance (i.e. a controlled parking zone or CPZ) removes the need for signs on posts inside the zone, but does not remove the need for markings on the ground. There would still need to be marked bays on the ground to show that restrictions (as signed) apply.

 

http://web.mac.com/rmbscarb/iWeb/rmbconsulting/Making%20a%20challenge.html

[Elisabetta]

Hello Zamzara,

 

Thank you for your reply and for the link. There are absolutely no markings on the road and no other signs. In fact, the reason why I parked there is that I have done so for a number of years and it didn't look any different, apart from the sign at the entrance of the road. Also, I have looked on numerous sites providing details of the many different signs on poles and none of them looked worded as the one on that road! I wonder whether perhaps that is also illegal being a pretty long road.

 

Elisabetta

[Elisabetta]

Hello Zamzara,

 

Thank you for your reply and for the link. There are absolutely no markings on the road and no other signs. In fact, the reason why I parked there is that I have done so for a number of years and it didn't look any different, apart from the sign at the entrance of the road. Also, I have looked on numerous sites providing details of the many different signs on poles and none of them looked worded as the one on that road! I wonder whether perhaps that is also illegal being a pretty long road.

 

Elisabetta

[Jamberson]

I suggest you challenge on the basis that there were no marked bays, and so the restrictions were not clear. I think this is probably a winner although I am not 100 percent sure. Definitely worth a try though. If the restriction is new, it is perfectly possible they just haven't got around to painting the bays yet, which leaves the road unenforceable.

 

CEOs should be instructed not to issue yet, if this is the case, but mistakes do happen. If they reject your appeal, then you can request a copy of the Traffic Order, which might or might not give you another basis to appeal

[green_and_mean]

Was the sign like this by any chance??

 

[Elisabetta]

Hello,

 

Thank you all for your reply. @Jamberson: Yes, that's the one!

 

How can people know all different rules the councils make up? As far as I have always known, parking areas are always marked one way or another. Is this to confuse drivers and make more money perhaps? It was very much a genuine mistake on my part (actually not just mine, being that my partner didn't notice either!) and as you can see, I pay for a permit in the same borough.

 

Do you think it is worth making an appeal?

 

Thank you so much again.

 

Elisabetta

[Jamberson]

Definitely worth a polite appeal letter explaining there were no markings and you did not realise.

[Elisabetta]

Hello Jamberson,

 

I am concerned they will charge me the full £80 if they don't cancel the PCN. I could take a risk and try to send them a polite appeal letter as you suggested.

 

Thank you again.

[Jamberson]

Normally if you appeal before the 28 days are up, they hold the discounted rate in the event your appeal is refused. I would assume this will happen.

[Elisabetta]

Thank you Jamberson. Would you assume the appeal will be refused?

[starfarer]

 

@Jamberson: Yes, that's the one!

 

is it the "YES" to green_and_mean's question above of "Was the sign like this by any chance??"

[Elisabetta]

Yes...the sign!

[sailor sam]

Have you read the description legend under the sign?

[Elisabetta]

Hello Sailor Sam,

 

I have indeed read the legend under the sign after it was posted by green and mean, but my point is, do really people know all the different signs and their meaning? This is the very first time I have seen a resident parking with no bay and as the letter from the council stated, ' the vehicle was booked for being parked without displaying a valid Permit in a Parking Bay'...what bay? It seems to me that even the Parking Appeals Officer dealing with my case doesn't have her mind clear. I have been paying for a permit in the same borough but different CPN and I have never seen such a nonsense.

[Jamberson]

Thank you Jamberson. Would you assume the appeal will be refused?

 

No, I wouldn't automatically assume that. Some do succeed. The point is, it will cost you nothing to try - if you don't appeal, your chances of cancellation are zero.

[sailor sam]

Hello Sailor Sam,

 

I have indeed read the legend under the sign after it was posted by green and mean, but my point is, do really people know all the different signs and their meaning? This is the very first time I have seen a resident parking with no bay and as the letter from the council stated, ' the vehicle was booked for being parked without displaying a valid Permit in a Parking Bay'...what bay? It seems to me that even the Parking Appeals Officer dealing with my case doesn't have her mind clear. I have been paying for a permit in the same borough but different CPN and I have never seen such a nonsense.

 

Obviously not otherwise no one would post in this forum! Unfortunately ignorance of the law is no defence i'm afraid. Having said that, you may as well appeal as you have nothing to loose.

[Elisabetta]

Hello again,

 

...and the story continues. I have written a polite letter to the Council asking to reconsider the PCN charge and received a reply stating ' the word bay was used in a generic paragraph but does not detract from the rejection sent. I am willing to extend the period of time in which to pay until 29/02/2012 ' etc etc . I am still of the same opinion and even more determined as I do not accept that their excuse is that the word bay was used in a generic way! What do you think?

 

Thank you in advance and Happy Christmas Holidays to everyone.

 

Regards

[Jamberson]

Their explanation of the use of the word "bay" doesn't have much bearing on the situation. If they used the word inappropriately in a letter, then that's not really grounds to cancel the PCN.

 

In all honsesty, I don't know what to advise, and I don't think anyone has yet confirmed whether painted bays are needed.

 

There's a similar forum to this called Pepipoo - hope no-one minds me recommending you try posting on there to see if you can get clarification. If it turns out bays are not required, the best bet is to pay. If not, fight on.

[68904]

Perhaps your sign maybe like this, which was obtained from the Dfor T FOI some time ago.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/foi/responses/2009/jan/foi4677/annex.pdf