Invalid penalty fare notice

[BIGGUS DICKUS]

I was recently issued a penalty fare notice on the DLR after forgetting to touch in at Royal Albert DLR.

 

The ticket inspector starting writing my name down on the notice, copying it from my ID, then realised he had misspelled my name.

(He didn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed, I must say.)

 

He scribbled out the misspelling and started again, so the ticket now has a large scribbled blob where my surname should be, followed by my surname spelled correctly.

 

As a Penalty fare Notice is a legal document and cannot be altered or amended I believe this makes the ticket invalid.

 

I will be sending in my appeal against the ticket in the next few days but if anyone can quote me rules and regultaions

- you know how these people love their rules and regulations - it would help a lot.

 

Incidentally, I sent a postal order to IRCAS to pay the correct fare and they have cashed it.

[honeybee13]

Hello there and welcome to the forum.

 

Here's a link to the forum sticky on rules and regulations.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?309653-Penalty-Fares-Regulations-May-2002

 

My best, HB

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Could you tell us what stage you're at with this please? Have they written to you? If they haven't, there's not much point contacting them at this stage.

 

I expect our forum helpers will be along as soon as their day jobs permit.

 

My best, HB

[Old-CodJA]

I fully understand that Honeybee is trying to be helpful and I also realise how confusing it can be.

 

HB is clearly not one of us helpers that have to work with these rules, but does give extremely good and helpful suggestions in trying to resolve some of these issues.

 

Firstly, make sure you refer to the correct set of rules relating to Penalty Fares.

 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14436.aspx

 

The link above will take you to the TfL information where a Pdf of the relevant rules and appeals procedure can be found

 

the National Railways Penalty Fares Rules are not relevant in this case, DLR is part of TfL

Edited November 30, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[honeybee13]

the National Railways Penalty Fares Rules are not relevant in this case, DLR is part of TfL

 

Thank you for that, OC. I got it wrong then, didn't I? Sorry for the confusion.

 

My best, HB

[honeybee13]

PS Maybe I should have signed myself 'apprenticehelper' . I'll never know it all.

 

My best, HB

[BIGGUS DICKUS]

The 'people' I was referring to are the IRCAS Appeal people.

They have denied my first appeal without even referring to my grounds for appeal against the ticket.

i.e. it is invalid as it is a legal document and has not been correctly completed per IRCAS and TfL regulations.

 

What I need to do is quote those regulations - the actual rules they have to follow when completing a penalty fare notice.

 

This must be down in writing somewhere!

 

None of the links on this forum relate to that.

 

Any suggestions?

[Old-CodJA]

It does not always simply mean a fare is not due.

 

The thing that often gets overlooked is the fact that, if the notice is made out wrongly or falsely in an evidential sense there may be reason to refute it.

 

If it is a mispelling or abbreviation that doesn't change the evidence and they could just cancel the penalty and refer the unpaid fare back to DLR prosecutors for action.

[honeybee13]

The people' I was referring to are the IRCAS Appeal people. They have denied my first appeal without even referring to my grounds for appeal against the ticket. i.e. it is invalid as it is a legal document and has not been correctly completed per IRCAS and TfL regulations. What I need to do is quote those regulations - the actual rules they have to follow when completing a penalty fare notice. This must be down in writing somewhere! None of the links on this forum relate to that. Any suggestions?

 

Hello again. I'm a bit confused by this. If you know the PFN doesn't conform to IRCAS and TfL regulations, have you already seen them please?

 

My best, HB

[honeybee13]

Oh crikey, I crossed posts with the maestro. I think I'll go back to genealogy, OC .

 

My best, HB

[BIGGUS DICKUS]

I have already appealed to the IRCAS Appeal people (which is in no way independent of IRCAS, obviously) and got a word processed letter denying the appeal.

 

It does not refer to my grounds for appeal, i.e. the ticket is invalid because it is not a legal document.

 

I am now going to appeal to 2nd Docklands Appeal, which is independent and may even read the documents I send them and consider the grounds for appeal.

 

What I want to know is this :

 

somewhere, someone has a written guide to completion of Penalty Fare Notices that specifically states that if an error is made the ticket must be cancelled,

crossed 'VOID', and a new ticket completed and issued.

 

This comes from a senior police office who knows whereof he speaks.

 

I want to know the chapter and verse of the rulebook used by IRCAS and DLR please!

 

What is the name of the regulations, what paragraph, clause, etc etc. do I quote?

 

Someone must know!

[Old-CodJA]

I have already appealed to the IRCAS Appeal people (which is in no way independent of IRCAS, obviously) and got a word processed letter denying the appeal. It does not refer to my grounds for appeal, i.e. the ticket is invalid because it is not a legal document. I am now going to appeal to 2nd Docklands Appeal, which is independent and may even read the documents I send them and consider the grounds for appeal. What I want to know is this : somewhere, someone has a written guide to completion of Penalty Fare Notices that specifically states that if an error is made the ticket must be cancelled, crossed 'VOID', and a new ticket completed and issued. This comes from a senior police office who knows whereof he speaks. I want to know the chapter and verse of the rulebook used by IRCAS and DLR please! What is the name of the regulations, what paragraph, clause, etc etc. do I quote? Someone must know!

 

You're probably going to get all 'uppity' now, but I will speak my mind anyway.

 

Sorry, but with that kind of demanding attitude I am not surprised you are still looking

 

I suggest that you ask your freind the 'senior Police Officer who knows whereof he speaks'.

[Old-CodJA]

PS Maybe I should have signed myself 'apprentice idiot' . I'll never know it all.

 

My best, HB

 

Nor me HB, there's a new one along every day.

[The Urbanite]

When I was digging around for defence for cases where I was issued a notice and even when I myself was issuing Penalty Fares before moving on to a different grade, I never got access to the actual IRCAS guidebook.

 

If you wish to avoid further sanctions against your actions, you may require a more substantial defence.

[timbo58]

Rules & regulations are there as guidance: the staff have to adhere to them to be fair to all passengers and because it's their job.

(this of course often brings accusations of 'jobsworthiness': which is the most over & falsely used comment in Britain IMHO: if someone isn't doing their job they're wrong, and if they are they're a petty jobsworth: ho hum).

 

Rules & regulations are also a legal framework for the user to follow/adhere to. Its the same as anyones 'terms & conditions' if you don't agree with them, don't use that product or service.

 

A crossing out or deletion doesn't alter the legality of this document: I understand you wanting to take legal advice on that matter but you should ensure you take this advice only from those who know the regulations inside and out.

A police officer is highly unlikely to be included in that category, the railway byelaws are fundamentally different in that respect.

 

The document is still clear and shows your details, the offence was committed and the details reported in line with the conditions of such (as far as we are all aware).

 

Frankly: either pay up or get someone who really knows the regulations to argue it, the clock is ticking, I think this is a case of frantically 'grasping at straws' in an attempt to get off a PF correctly issued.

[timbo58]

p.s. there are plenty of cases where someone has turned up in court with completely wrong advice steadfast & adamant they have a solid defence only to discover the magistrates take a very dim view of such 'defences'.

 

Once again: take proper legal advice or pay up are the only sensible choices here.

[Old-CodJA]

I never got access to the actual IRCAS guidebook.

 

There isn't a separate one. They use the Penalty Fares Rules the same as everyone else.

[BIGGUS DICKUS]

Just to add a little insult to injury ... today I got on the 257 bus just outside Maryland Station. Two female members of the honourable travelling community got on, dressed in their usual 'ethnic' garb. They waved their Oyster cards about as if they were paper travelcards, never even thinking about touching in. The driver stared straight ahead, gripping the steering wheel so tight I thought he'd break it, gritting his teeth as these freeloading **** helped themselves to a free ride. He is obviously under instruction to allow this - why else would he have ignored such a blatant breach of the rules? So, there you go, Angusg and all the other honest, straightforward users of TFL's network who get hammered for making simple, innocent mistakes - get yourself some gypsy garb and pretend you don't speak English. Free travel for you!

[MrGates]

Everyone will have their day at some point.

[judyedwards]

Everyone will have their day at some point.

 

These are the most trustful words)

[Grotesque]

Just to add a little insult to injury ... today I got on the 257 bus just outside Maryland Station.

 

Do you enjoy a good view from Ibex House.

[dx100uk]

thread tidied

off topic posts removed

discussion thread created

additional threads created for two other users with the same issue

 

please keep on-topic and friendly please

 

dx