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    • Hi, this is my first time posting here, I hope Im posting at the right place. This is a long story... prepare for a long read! I hired a local painter & decorator (lets call him Painter R, R stands for rogue lol) back in late July to do the work in my house. The work includes painting of the ceiling and walls in the house, and also fixing a ceiling of the extension (where the old conservatory is, the previous owner made it into an extension. It was leaking at the extension, the ceiling was therefore taken down before for two months to let it dry up, and I needed someone to put it back). I asked "Painter R" what kind of paint is he going to use, he said he is using Crown paint. I asked him is it good paint, is it durable, resist to mold, resist to acid (I meant to say corrosive, but mind my English), and he said yes. My house is not a very small house, its a 4 bedroom house. The whole job was £4650, and I accepted the quote since I wasn't able to find anyone else at that time. The work began at early August, "Painter R" sent 2 boys to come and work on my house. The work was delayed for a bit, and eventually took two weeks, but everything "seemed" fine (since I am no expert, i didnt really know what to look at, as long as the painting seems ok, ceilings put back, I was "fine" with it. I did point out some small things out and they did fix them/they said they would but sometime they didnt and I had to tell them again), so I paid the full amount with direct debit when the job was almost all done (Painter R called me up to urge me to pay, stating that he will have to pay the guys "tomorrow", since he and his guys were pretty friendly so I did it, what a BIG MISTAKE I did).   There were issues with them, including I asked them to fit some of my blinds back, but they did not put any of them back, and also thrown away the brackets, at first he was trying to make me leave it, stating he doesnt remember me asking him to put any of them back. Luckily, I stated it in the text messages that I wanted some of them back, so he sent someone back to fit some of them. And made a deal with me that he is not charging me for an extra hole that needed to be filled, and a piece of wood that they put back (but was not very well done, another trader who, I found later on, agreed with me), so that they will not come back to fit one set of blinds back (which originally, fitting back all blinds is part of the job), however, I accepted it because the conversation was getting nowhere. Two weeks after the ceiling was put back, there were cracks and bulges appeared, I called them up, they came back to fix it, cracks still exist afterwards, so I called them up again, they came back to "fix" it again. This time, the guy used a lot of fillers, making the ceiling an uneven ceiling to try and cover up a crack, but still, the crack exists, even to this day. Worth mentioning is that, the paint that he mentioned they would use is Crown paint, but the paint that the guy left behind after fixing the ceiling, is just cheap paint that you can buy from B&Q. Now, here comes the real problem. Around 30th Sep I had cleaners to clean the house for me since my carpets are being fitting on 6th Oct, it was found that the paint can be washed off, just by gently rubbing it with water using fingers, and the paint could be seen dissolves on fingers! I called "Painter R" up, and was told that he was not in the country. "Painter R" finally called me back on 5th Oct, he said he never stated what kind of paint he would be using, and he said this is what he meant about wipe-able and non wipe-able paint, (in which I dont really remember he told me anything about it, but even if my memory is messing with me, that he really did talk to me about this and even, lets say, recorded it, since I am no expert/professionals at painting, I would think "wipe-able" meaning "the paint can be wiped with a damped cloth without any problem", and "non wipe-able" meaning  "the paint will not be wiped off by a damped cloth", who would expect the paint to be washed off just by water?!?!) He said things like, he has painted a hundred houses like that, its a standard paint to be used in all new builds in England, etc. He was very rude on the phone, stating he "even used a wipe-able paint for me in the kitchen and dining room and bathrooms already", but I found that the paint at the two small rooms (one bathroom, one toilet), can also be washed off easily. So he said he will send someone to paint those two rooms with the right paint that Saturday (9th Oct), nothing more. He said there is no way he is going to repaint the whole house for me. So I said to him "my carpet is being fitted on 6th, what if any paint dripped on them?". He said "Im not going to do anything after the carpet is fitted, or you will find the slightest thing on the carpet and charge me for it." The conversation went on, eventually he said, "Im not going to do anything after the carpet is fitted, you had your chance, good bye." and he hung me up! I called him back straightly, and he said, "So what do you want?" I stated I still needed those 2 rooms fixed, so he said he will send someone to paint those two rooms with the right paint that Saturday, and he wont guarantee anything about making my floor dirty. I accepted it. Then I called up citizensadvice, and asked them what to do, then followed some of their advice. I quickly found a trusted trader from a website recommended by citizensadvice, and talked to the trusted trader (Lets call him "Trusted trader A"). He was a kind gentleman who listened to my problem, and he quickly identified that the paint they used, was very likely cheap contract matt, which is not suitable for a redecoration job like in my house. He told me to use a silky, soft cloth damped with water, to wipe the walls left to right for around 10 times and see what happens, so I did, with a car washing cloth damped with just cold water, and the paint was being washed off everywhere (apart from Kitchen, Dining room, utility room and the main bathroom)! I told "Painter R", "I am already seeing the old blue paint on the bathroom wall just after 10 seconds of gently wiping with a damped cloth", he told me to "stop wiping the wall, now you are damaging it" I told "Painter R", "you did not apply primers before using that paint on top of it". He answered: "There's no such thing as primers for walls! You do not know what you are talking about I'm afraid"   On 6th Weds, "Painter R" said he has given the paint to his painter for Saturday morning (9th Oct) and the painter will be there at 9am. I asked "Painter R" what kind of paint he is using this time, he mentioned the name of a paint which "trusted trader A" said should erase the problem. I asked "Painter R" how many coats is he applying, he said only 1, I asked why not 2? (because 2 costs is always recommended) Guess how he answered me? He said "If I get anymore messages no one is coming on Saturday". So I stopped texting him as advised by "Trusted trader A". I also sent a formal complaint letter on 7th Oct to "Painter R" through email, stating Consumer Rights Act 2015 in the letter and mentioned that he can continue to perform the fixings that he is going to do that Saturday, also stated about what other things I wanted, asking him to reply me in 14 days. He never replied, and no one ever came on Saturday 9th Oct. I texted both "Painter R" and the worker who "Painter R" said would be coming, none of them ever replied. I havent been in touch with them since. I paid "Trusted trader A" to come and have a look at the house on the following Sunday morning 10th Oct, and he wrote me a report and gave me a quote (since I needed quote from at least 3 traders.) "Trusted trader A" pointed out 3 things in the report: 1: The walls prior to painting could have been a sheen finish and may have required a primer to stop the penetration occurring now, there are plenty of primers on the market  2: Preparation could be an issue, if the walls had been abraded off using grade 120 sandpaper to key the surface down prior to application of paints and a Vinyl or Durable Matt used  3: The product used looks and feels like a contract Matt product, which would normally be used on new plaster finish and would not be recommended for a redecoration product. Trusted trader A" Also stated that the quality of the work in some areas was not very good. I also found another trusted trader from another trusted website (Lets call him "Trusted trader B") "Trusted trader B" pointed out a lot of things that were not done right by "Painter R". He said similar things as "Trusted trader A", stating that the work was done poorly, preparation was not done properly. He stated that, some people would ask for contract matt to be used because its very cheap. However, for a 4650 job, it really shouldnt be contract matt unless you specified you wanted contract matt (which I obviously didnt). And the ceilings that was put back by "Painter R", was not done right, no metal corners were used, and hence why the corners dont look straight. I also found that all the ceilings in the house is painted with contract matt, and can be wiped off easily using a damped soft cloth. Im getting 2 quotes for the paintings of walls and ceilings from the two trusted trader. (as I was told to get quotes from 3 traders.) but for now, I am only able to get 1 quote for the fixing of the ceiling from "Trusted trader B". Following the advice from citizensadvice, I should be writing a letter with more serious manner 14 days after I sent the first. With the average of 3 quotes attached which I am still yet to be able to find. If the trader still do not reply me 10 days after that, Ill have to go for the small claim court.     After the long read... I would like to know, what else should I do next? Is it likely for me to win the small claim case? I really need some help and advises here.
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Natwest ruining my life!! Advice appreciated


andy262000
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That took some doing, here's one of the claim forms the other is identical apart from change of address for possession. I also received another two bundles which both made a thud as they landed on the mat, they are witness statements, shall I upload these as well?

 

The other claim form and particulars seems a right bodge up, after two pages their is a blank defence form for mortgaged residential premises then the particulars of claim, also on the claim form they are claiming possession of one property when it is two? then on the poc it goes back to two.

 

They also state it includes residential property when it is all commercial.

 

Apart from that the attached is the same document.

 

Many thanks, sorry it took so long to get on.

Untitled.pdf

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Sorry just realised I've removed figures! if you need me to re-do please let me know, I have scanned the other document and witness statements so If you would like to look at those I can upload them too. I'm fairly sure the defence forms are the wrong ones, these are N11R Rented residential premises and I saw an N11M mortgaged residential premises which was stapled in the other bundle I got from shoo'ssmith (a blank one) this looks more like what I've to use, this is a claim form and particulars with a blank form tossed in stapled together looks like a right botch up. Should I scan it to show the difference on the forms?

 

Thanks in advance

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I have definately filed incorrect defence forms, I've just checked and the N120 POC is for mortgaged residential premises, they sent me N11R which is for rented residential premises, I filled in the best I could and sent them without really noticing. My house is not mortgaged with Natwest they just say they have a legal charge on it and my business which is what the loan is for is commercial property entirely which also had a N11R. Really confused, should I let the court know I've been issued with incorrect paperwork therefore my defence will not be as it should be? I'm wondering if whoever at natwest have told shoosmith these three properties are buy to lets or something along those lines? I've been googling these forms and it is all wrong.

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Yes, I think you need to let the court know as soon as possible that you have been issued the incorrect paperwork. Who gave you these ?

 

You should also advise that it wasnt until after you completed and submitted them that you were advised that they were incorrect.

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Thanks for your reply, It was Shoosmith who sent me the defense forms, the POC N120 form they have sent me relates to residential mortgage possession for my house (although it's not mortgaged with natwest) and business premises they say is also residential mortgage possession N120 although it's entirely commercial and both my defense forms are for rented residential possession N11R.

 

I found this which confirmed it for me, am I correct?.

 

C I V I L P R O C E D U R E R U L E S

P A R T 5 5

CPR Part 55 – implemented on 15 October 2001.

Materials

Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2001 SI No. 256, Schedule 1.

Practice direction - PD55.

Forms - available at http://www.courtservice.gov.uk/fandl/menu_house.htm

N206 A Notice of Issue

N206 B Notice of Issue

N5 Claim form for possession of property

N5A Claim form for relief against forfeiture

N119 Particulars of claim for possession (rented residential premises)

N7 Notes for defendant

N7A Notes for defendant

N11R Defence form (rented residential premises)

N120 Particulars of claim – mortgaged residential premises

N11M Defence form – mortgaged residential premises

N5B Claim form – accelerated possession procedure

N11B Defence to possession claim – accelerated procedure

N7B Notes for defendant – forfeiture claim

N121 Particulars of claim – trespassers

N11 Form of defence

N26 Order for possession

N27 Order for possession (forfeiture)

N28 Order for possession (rented residential premises)(suspended)

N28A Order for possession (rented residential premises)(postponed)

N440 application for time order

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I spoke to the court and got passed round a few people, I explained I've filed the wrong defence form but it was what I was sent by the solicitor and I have also received poc for mortgaged residential premises for my house which is not mortgaged by the natwest just a charge and poc for mortgaged residential premises which is entirely commercial, they said it there is nothing much I can do as it's not my fault and if I explain this to the representing solicitor of natwest and the judge this will most probably be taken into consideration? there is nothing much I can do really, keep my fingers crossed. I'm just trying to compile a list of bullet points to take with me so I don't forget anything, the poc don't mention anything about the new agreement from jan/feb 2010, will I be safe using the unfair treatment clause from BCOBS?

 

I have still not received response from my second SAR, I haven't had a bank statement from them since december 2010, I'm also interested in seeing these agreements for the £20k from two dissolved ltd companies which they added to the charge forcing me and my brother into a loan and the £20k which was consolidated into the commercial loan.

 

Although I have estimated they have been paid or should I say helped themselves to about £12k over the last 14 months so they can't say they haven't had any money off me or I've made no attempt to make repayments, charges upto dec 2010 amount to £4650 and the arrangement fees for the 20k loan £2500 and the consolidation charge and arrangement fees £4000.

 

Thanks for everyone's assistance so far.

 

PS @andyorch did you manage to look at the poc I attached? Thanks

Edited by andy262000
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It's been adjourned, although the judge was grumpy and unsettled me by shouting at us both, even the solicitor admitted he was not happy. I was advised to get legal advice on an all monies payable charge, the judge was certainly not happy with Natwest because he said where is the rest of the documentation to give me a reason to grant this!! to the solicitor and I took it as a hint from him when he said to me ' if you can come back with a good enough reason not to grant possession is that what you would want' I said yes but I have until the next available date to prepare a defense and witness statement.

 

Anyone think I have a chance?

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  • 1 month later...

Just an update as to proceedings!

 

I took the Judges advice and got legal help, a recent request for information has provided us with two loan agreements which was not included in the original POC one is a CCA and the other is an unregulated agreement, both these was sent to me in 2010 when the bank gave me no option but to do as I'm told or they would start proceedings. Is there anything I could possibly look for in these agreements which I could use as a defence?

 

The solicitor has requested other information such as bank statements which I haven't received and amount of arrears if any? Shoosmiths have yet to provide this information, they have had two weeks but nothing as yet.

 

The last court date was used to get directions from the judge.

 

I'm being advised to make the bank an offer of repayment which I have tried to do myself for over a year but every proposal including lump sums has been refused, the other option is to claim I have not had proper legal advice as during the purchase the same solicitor worked for everyone resulting in a conflict of interest and I can honestly say I was never advised about any legalities or made aware of this all monies clause which was in the original agreement.

 

Would anyone advise me if taking the solicitors advise would be in my best interest or should I push some of my own, I've read so many stories about people being let down I feel like I'm in a dilemma although the solicitor has got us a month to get things in order.

 

In the meantime the bank are continuing to empty my account.

 

I would appreciate any feedback, thanks.

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Just an update as to proceedings!

 

I took the Judges advice and got legal help, a recent request for information has provided us with two loan agreements which was not included in the original POC one is a CCA and the other is an unregulated agreement, both these was sent to me in 2010 when the bank gave me no option but to do as I'm told or they would start proceedings. Is there anything I could possibly look for in these agreements which I could use as a defence?

 

The solicitor has requested other information such as bank statements which I haven't received and amount of arrears if any? Shoosmiths have yet to provide this information, they have had two weeks but nothing as yet.

 

The last court date was used to get directions from the judge.

 

I'm being advised to make the bank an offer of repayment which I have tried to do myself for over a year but every proposal including lump sums has been refused, the other option is to claim I have not had proper legal advice as during the purchase the same solicitor worked for everyone resulting in a conflict of interest and I can honestly say I was never advised about any legalities or made aware of this all monies clause which was in the original agreement.

 

Would anyone advise me if taking the solicitors advise would be in my best interest or should I push some of my own, I've read so many stories about people being let down I feel like I'm in a dilemma although the solicitor has got us a month to get things in order.

 

In the meantime the bank are continuing to empty my account.

 

I would appreciate any feedback, thanks.

 

Are you able to scan and post up the agreements?

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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