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Natwest Commercial Loan, They want it back!!! going for home repo - help


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Thanks for the reply, when I first took on the business I was very naive my bank manager was my best pal and I did pretty much everything he said or offered so most probably there are products which I have been sold that could be subject to claim, my most blatent cock up was a stakeholder pension, I knew nothing about it or how they worked paid a chunk of money into it a can no longer keep it going or get the money back. Overdraft's we had three one for each business, my brother had one overdraft I had two, two of them was ltd companies but natwest forced the loans on us so everything is now on the sole trader account.

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Have you made a Subject Access request of the bank? That should provide you with everything in connection with your financial relationship with the bank and might just provide you with some information that will help.

 

There is a draft letter in the CAG libary at the top of each screen. You will of course need to amend it to request any information you believe is required. They have 40 days in which to comply and it will cost you £10.00. Some things you will certainly need to request are statements on all accounts. Communication logs (which is basically a computerised diary).

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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I'm really grateful for the responses, I have no one I can ask for advice family etc. It does help mentally getting responses from my posts. I have not done an SAR I presume I would just do the standard one with the additional request for other accounts and extra information. Should I send this to shoosmiths as well? seeing as though they want to hear from me by tomorrow which I think is an unreasonable amount of time considering I only received the document on friday. I also have the complaint in with the fos which natwest sort of acknowledged involvement of the fos, I logged my complaint in September, Natwest replied with:-

 

My understanding of your complaint to the bank

 

The information provided to the bank by the fos suggests you consider being forced into taking a consolidation loan, that insufficient support has been provided in setting up a repayment agreement, that your IFA was unsuccessful in discussing repayment with this office and you received a call which you found threatening.

 

Please let me know if you think I have misunderstood or missed anything.

 

Details of my investigation

 

In order to investigate your complaint, I have reviewed the file provided by you Business Manager and the electronic records held since you accounts were referred to this Office for recovery of your liability.

 

It is clear a Business loan was discussed and considered over a period of several months, you business manager monitored you Business Current Account to ensure that there was sufficient credits to cover the contractual repayments of a consolidation loan. A letter was sent to you I have enclosed a copy, which you may find useful. The loan was suggested to help your financial situation and affordability was proved. You were under no obligation to sign the loan agreement form and should of sought independant advice if you were not entirely happy with the situation.

 

Once accounts are referred to this office for recovery, repayment is expected in the short term, normally within three years. Discussions were held with our field agent in order to come to a mutually acceptable way forward. However, I can find nothing to suggest that repayment was arranged.

 

Please accept our apologies that you found a call from this office to be threatening; it was certainly not our intention. Staff are trained to be professional at all times and it is essential that customers are made aware of consequences of non repayment.

 

This office is due to take action as no repayment has been agreed.

 

My decision and racionale

 

After my investigation I am sorry but I have not decided to uphold your complaint. This is because as I have already detailed, all of the correct procedures were undertaken by the bank to ensure affordability and to adhere with the Data Protection Act. I appreciate this is not the response you was hoping for. We view the facts of each complaint individually when drawing our conclusions and I hope my explanations helps you understand the reasons behind my decisions.

 

Next Steps

 

I believe my decision is fair, based on the information available to me.

 

Ultimately if we cannot reach an agreement, you have the right to refer your complaint to the FOS but I hope this will not be necessary. If I dont hear from you within 8 weeks then I assume you are satisfied and close your complaint.

 

Customer care team.

 

 

The loan wasn't to help me Natwest just wanted there overdrafts back or they would commence proceedings to recover it, left me no option really.

 

There was no mention of affordability, the copy letter they have sent me is nothing to do with what they put in place.

 

I have spent months trying to find a mutually acceptable way forward, not sure who the field agent is, no one has been to see me??

 

I found the call threatening as someone shouting down the phone saying they are taking my house and my business is not professional and to speak to the Natwest person the next day tells me 'It was in the heat of the moment'??? If he was mad at someone else there was no need to take it out on me.

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My heads overflowing with what I should do and I'm getting nowhere fast, just doing SAR do I send it to shoosmiths as it's they who have demanded a response by tomorrow? Also how do I donate can't see a link or button or am I being stupid?

 

Thanks for the advice so far.

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Send the SAR to the Data Controller at NatWest, they will have to fulfill it. You could send a copy to Shoosmiths with a covering letter advising this is what you have done.

 

One of the caveats in Shoosmiths' letter was that you should let them know also, if you have made a complaint to the FOS. As you have now done so, then I would also give them the reference number you have been provided with in the covering letter as above.

 

You could point out to SM that despite their client's assertions, you have attempted to find a way forward, however, they have been obstructive and uncooperative.

 

From now on, I think you should keep all communication in writing and with proof of postage at the very least send your SAR and letter to SM via Recorded delivery mail, keep the receipts.

 

HTH

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Thanks for the reply citizenB, really appreciate being given some direction. Shoosmiths specify Mortgage Pre Action Protocol, I've read a little on it and to me it refers to residential and mortgages, what I have is a commercial loan which my house is security. I've had an agent look at the shop property to see if it would be worth trying to sell just so I could keep my house and maybe try and rent somewhere but they are of the opinion it's worth less than half what I paid for it in the current climate which if all property was taken and sold still would not cover the loan. Natwest fell over themselves to lend me that money at the time.

 

Will an email to shooshop be sufficient to satisfy their request?

 

Thanks for helping

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They just request that you contact them.. so an email should be fine. You could always send a hard copy. You should also click on the "request read receipt" facility on your email

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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I've sent you an e-mail. It would be very helpful if you could contact us by e-mail using our admin e-mail address.

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  • 3 months later...

Just and update, Natwest haven't sent me my information after the time lapsed for my SAR, I've sent another request. They have disregarded my complaint from the fos who'm I've to speak to again as they are not impressed with proceedings and the Natwest seem adamant to proceed with a possession order, I've emailed shoosmiths about my opinion of the banks unfair treatment and obstruction but they have yet to come back to me. Natwest also disabled my card machine so I couldn't take any payments by card so I contacted streamline and persuaded them to re-enable it after they informed me 'as far as they was concerned the business was no longer operating' why or how they could of assumed that I don't know lol.

I'm in the process of preparing a defence and I'm finding the BCOBS information very interesting reading.

 

While I have some money could someone please tell me how I can make a donation?

 

Also with all the grief, lies, threats and illness (i've been really ill since christmas, felt really down, no energy, depressed, went to see the doctor and he said it's stress related but sent me for blood tests and found I'm really low on vitamin D, gave me a year on calceos supplements.

 

would I or could I be in a position to make a counter claim?

 

Don't forget to tell me how to donate!

 

Thanks in advance

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Hi Andy, this is just a support message, I'm 'fighting' Natwest at the moment too, they have made my life hell for months, and like you my health has suffered :-(

 

Please don't give up, have they sent anything at all in response to your SAR? I got a letter stating they were having difficulties locating information on my accounts! This I don't understand as four of them were still active, but I sent them another letter (template somewhere on the site) reminding them they are in default and giving them a further 14 days. Still nothing from them (they have a few days left) but I think it's important to leave a paper trail, Natwest's non compliance should go against them in court (hopefully!)

 

Sorry I can't offer much advice as I'm not sure what my next steps should be either, but this site is fantastic and you'll get the support you need, I too will be donating soon :)

 

Ally

Hit the scales, you know you want to :p

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Hi allykat, thanks for your support, I'm not giving up although I have felt like it many times but I have realised they are not going to take my life away from me. The people I have had to deal with are the most arrogant, horrible, ruthless people I have come across, I've had someone pull a knife on me before know and that was a far more pleasant experience than with the Natwest. I have had nothing at all in response to SAR although i know it has been signed for.

 

This is a great site, just started feeling a bit guilty because I'd had some help and didn't have anything to give back at the time, I just hope I can get one over on Badwest.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've filled in my defence form which they sent me 2, one for my house and the other for the commercial property, what I would like to know which I've just noticed is the form is a N11R Defence form for Rented Residential Premises? is this the correct form I have been sent?

 

Also in the Particulars of claim it seems to have a lot of irregularities ie. As far as they are aware I am not in possession of my house and they state it's part residential and commercial also the commercial property is being claimed for as residential?

 

They Also haven't quoted any arrears there may be, just a total sum of monies which they are claiming stating they do not have any further information about the claim just a sum which is split into two parts, one for the commercial loan and the other being my brothers overdraft which they converted to loan.

 

As Natwest forced consolodation of overdrafts on my business and restructured the loan agreement without giving me any reason at the time apart from telling me this is a short term measure after a period of time they would reinstate my facilities, would this be covered by BCOBS? they forced this upon me giving me no alternative as they said they would have to commence recovery of all money if I did not comply this happened towards the end of 2009 about september but when forced I had to agree in january 2010 with new agreements.

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This is way out of my league, so I will try and find some helpers for you.

 

Is the FOS still looking at this complaint for you ?

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hi Andy CB as asked I look in.

 

OK firstly can you type out the Particulars of Claim(S) if more than one summons and type it verbatim (devil is in the detail)

Can you flesh the bones a little as to the dates of service and what stage you are at now.(Time Frame).

 

Regards

 

Andy

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We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

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Thanks for getting back to me, I'll scan the particulars of claim it's quite a large document there is two one for each property, the fos is very slow going to ring them tomorrow I keep having very bad days and the tablets I'm on put me in the wrong frame of mind to deal with things in a logical manner which I know is not good. I have to go to court on the 19th the fos told me to go tell the court about the position the bank have put me in, how unfair matters have been and give an assessment of how much money I have lost due to the banks threat (which I have a recording of the advisors admission to threatening me) and how I have made multiple offers of payment now business is improving and 4 people could be out of work if they wish to proceed with possession. Whether this is good advise I can only hope. I'll be back soon as I done scanning! Thankyou again!

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andy262000, suggest you follow the instructions below to post the documents on the thread. Much easier.

 

 

Dx100 – Instructions on uploading pdfs

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all pers info inc barcodes etc using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or ir you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB:you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

the hit reply button

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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That took some doing, here's one of the claim forms the other is identical apart from change of address for possession. I also received another two bundles which both made a thud as they landed on the mat, they are witness statements, shall I upload these as well?

 

The other claim form and particulars seems a right bodge up, after two pages their is a blank defence form for mortgaged residential premises then the particulars of claim, also on the claim form they are claiming possession of one property when it is two? then on the poc it goes back to two.

 

They also state it includes residential property when it is all commercial.

 

Apart from that the attached is the same document.

 

Many thanks, sorry it took so long to get on.

Untitled.pdf

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Sorry just realised I've removed figures! if you need me to re-do please let me know, I have scanned the other document and witness statements so If you would like to look at those I can upload them too. I'm fairly sure the defence forms are the wrong ones, these are N11R Rented residential premises and I saw an N11M mortgaged residential premises which was stapled in the other bundle I got from shoo'ssmith (a blank one) this looks more like what I've to use, this is a claim form and particulars with a blank form tossed in stapled together looks like a right botch up. Should I scan it to show the difference on the forms?

 

Thanks in advance

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I have definately filed incorrect defence forms, I've just checked and the N120 POC is for mortgaged residential premises, they sent me N11R which is for rented residential premises, I filled in the best I could and sent them without really noticing. My house is not mortgaged with Natwest they just say they have a legal charge on it and my business which is what the loan is for is commercial property entirely which also had a N11R. Really confused, should I let the court know I've been issued with incorrect paperwork therefore my defence will not be as it should be? I'm wondering if whoever at natwest have told shoosmith these three properties are buy to lets or something along those lines? I've been googling these forms and it is all wrong.

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Yes, I think you need to let the court know as soon as possible that you have been issued the incorrect paperwork. Who gave you these ?

 

You should also advise that it wasnt until after you completed and submitted them that you were advised that they were incorrect.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Thanks for your reply, It was Shoosmith who sent me the defense forms, the POC N120 form they have sent me relates to residential mortgage possession for my house (although it's not mortgaged with natwest) and business premises they say is also residential mortgage possession N120 although it's entirely commercial and both my defense forms are for rented residential possession N11R.

 

I found this which confirmed it for me, am I correct?.

 

C I V I L P R O C E D U R E R U L E S

P A R T 5 5

CPR Part 55 – implemented on 15 October 2001.

Materials

Civil Procedure (Amendment) Rules 2001 SI No. 256, Schedule 1.

Practice direction - PD55.

Forms - available at http://www.courtservice.gov.uk/fandl/menu_house.htm

N206 A Notice of Issue

N206 B Notice of Issue

N5 Claim form for possession of property

N5A Claim form for relief against forfeiture

N119 Particulars of claim for possession (rented residential premises)

N7 Notes for defendant

N7A Notes for defendant

N11R Defence form (rented residential premises)

N120 Particulars of claim – mortgaged residential premises

N11M Defence form – mortgaged residential premises

N5B Claim form – accelerated possession procedure

N11B Defence to possession claim – accelerated procedure

N7B Notes for defendant – forfeiture claim

N121 Particulars of claim – trespassers

N11 Form of defence

N26 Order for possession

N27 Order for possession (forfeiture)

N28 Order for possession (rented residential premises)(suspended)

N28A Order for possession (rented residential premises)(postponed)

N440 application for time order

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I spoke to the court and got passed round a few people, I explained I've filed the wrong defence form but it was what I was sent by the solicitor and I have also received poc for mortgaged residential premises for my house which is not mortgaged by the natwest just a charge and poc for mortgaged residential premises which is entirely commercial, they said it there is nothing much I can do as it's not my fault and if I explain this to the representing solicitor of natwest and the judge this will most probably be taken into consideration? there is nothing much I can do really, keep my fingers crossed. I'm just trying to compile a list of bullet points to take with me so I don't forget anything, the poc don't mention anything about the new agreement from jan/feb 2010, will I be safe using the unfair treatment clause from BCOBS?

 

I have still not received response from my second SAR, I haven't had a bank statement from them since december 2010, I'm also interested in seeing these agreements for the £20k from two dissolved ltd companies which they added to the charge forcing me and my brother into a loan and the £20k which was consolidated into the commercial loan.

 

Although I have estimated they have been paid or should I say helped themselves to about £12k over the last 14 months so they can't say they haven't had any money off me or I've made no attempt to make repayments, charges upto dec 2010 amount to £4650 and the arrangement fees for the 20k loan £2500 and the consolidation charge and arrangement fees £4000.

 

Thanks for everyone's assistance so far.

 

PS @andyorch did you manage to look at the poc I attached? Thanks

Edited by andy262000
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