Help with Lloyds TSB PPI (Asset Card)

[makkapakka69]

No reply from Lloyds so far from my prelim letter.

 

Have had another letter from 1st Credit though, so Lloyds must have passed the letter on.

 

They state that all disputes regarding the account were settled in 2009 and to pay up now!!!

 

Er, no they weren't because LTSB haven't refunded the ppi back or sent a valid CCA!!!

 

Time to get LBA sent out I think.

 

One question, I sent the prelim letter to their Consumer Debt Recovery team in Brighton, would it be better to send to the insurance team instead?

 

MP.

[dx100uk]

the account can only be in dispute for the failure to supply the CCA

 

dx

[makkapakka69]

the account can only be in dispute for the failure to supply the CCA

 

dx

 

 

But what if I dispute the debt because of the PPI?

 

If the PPI was refunded, then the debt would not exist.

 

MP.

[dx100uk]

sadly ppi reclaiming is not under cca

 

dx

[makkapakka69]

Just a quick update on this:

 

Lloyds TSB reinvestigated this complaint after my initial letter. They seem to have forgot that they have already investigated once before, with no mention of earlier complaint.

 

Anyway, they have again rejected the complaint , replying with one of their standard generic letters. Have now replied with a four page letter challenging all of their reasons for rejecting and awaiting their response.

 

If knocked back again will follow up with LBA, then Court.

 

1st credit have been sniffing around again too so need to get this sorted as they say they wony hold the account any longer!

 

MP.

[birchave0]

MP where are you with this???

Your story is very much like mine, same card and I suppose the same agreement. Mine too was sold to 1st Credit in August 2012. They are now taking me to court for the account. Sounds like they were part of the same batch?

 

anything you can add would be good

 

Birch

[makkapakka69]

Hey Birch,

 

Have yet to hear back from Lloyds regarding this account since I replied to their initial rejection letter. 1st Credit started their tricks again and threatened me with a stat demand if I never paid up. They received a heavily worded reply pointing out their mistakes and I haven't heard back from them since December when I threatened to take them to Court for harassment over a disputed debt.

 

Although there is an application form type agreement, the t's and c's are u/s, so they cant pursue it. Plus the PPI has no t's and c's altogether on the application form, if using the multiple agreement argument as a defense.

 

Have been playing the waiting game with this one to see who moves first as the account will become statue barred at the beginning of next year. Plus I'm waiting until the small claims limit increases to £10,000 before I make a move with Lloyds.

 

Sorry to hear 1st Crud are taking yours to Court. Have they issued papers yet? What was Lloyds response to the PPI?

 

MP.

Edited March 1, 2013 by makkapakka69
Typo

[birchave0]

Hey Birch,

 

Have yet to hear back from Lloyds regarding this account since I replied to their initial rejection letter. 1st Credit started their tricks again and threatened me with a stat demand if I never paid up. They received a heavily worded reply pointing out their mistakes and I haven't heard back from them since December when I threatened to take them to Court for harassment over a disputed debt.

 

Although there is an application form type agreement, the t's and c's are u/s, so they cant pursue it. Plus the PPI has no t's and c's altogether on the application form, if using the multiple agreement argument as a defense.

 

Have been playing the waiting game with this one to see who moves first as the account will become statue barred at the beginning of next year. Plus I'm waiting until the small claims limit increases to £10,000 before I make a move with Lloyds.

 

Sorry to hear 1st Crud are taking yours to Court. Have they issued papers yet? What was Lloyds response to the PPI?

 

MP.

 

they have applied to fast track it through the courts as the balance is more than 5k

I've written to them and asked for all the paperwork they are relying on in court basically, nothing arrived yet....

I last paid in Jan 07 so think it's time statute barred, my application/agreement sounds like yours, why do they reckon yours is unenforceable??

 

The FOS upheld my PPI complaint and lloyds coughed up at the end of 2011, however there was no explanation or breakdown of the refund????

 

There is still over £500 in charges to against the account

I will keep you updated

[makkapakka69]

The main reason it is unenforceable is a lack of original t's and c's. The terms on the application form are incomplete and the other copies sent by LTSB in Section 78 request, and later SAR request, are not the originals and are only varied copies.

 

LTSB no longer have the originals, and this is confirmed in internal notes received in SAR. No original terms = unenforceable in court.

 

Also, there is no reference to the ppi t's and c's on the application form, only a small paragraph on the reverse. Nothing containing prescribed terms is mentioned. The addition of the ppi makes the application form/agreement a multiple agreement because it is made up of 2 different types of credit, - the actual credit card, and the ppi element. Again this is enough to prevent enforcement according to cca 1974.

 

If LTSB have already refunded you, then i'm surprised 1st Credit are taking you to court, especially as you say the 6 year limitation has kicked in. If they are claiming the full defaulted sum, then surely this is made up of your now confirmed mis-sold ppi, and therefore you do not owe it to anyone. They cant argue that you owe it when the balance is made up in part of mis-sold ppi and charges. (Or did LTSB reduce the balance before selling the account) Plus this would make the default notice wrong because the defaulted balance included the ppi. They would need an accurate default balance to pursue it.

 

As for your charges, get a claim in direct to LTSB. They refunded mine without too much of a problem and I got over £300 back which reduced the balance of the account a little. Its the PPI LTSB are stalling over with me. You say the FOS ruled in your favor, did they give reasons? They rejected mine mainly because the ppi tick box is within the "optional features" section of the application form, even though it was the sales adviser that filled out the form for me. I was only told where to sign at the bottom of the page.

 

Like I said previously, this has been simmering for me for a while now and i've been letting it lie. I've been busy reclaiming another ppi from an old LTSB loan which surfaced through my SAR, which is now seeing some progress at last. My only option left for this credit card account is court action, so I need to research properly before starting out. The increase in small claims limit will mean I can use this route and not be liable for their costs, though I will probably recruit a local solicitor to assist.

 

Will update the thread as things progress.

 

MP.

[birchave0]

thanks MP all good info

all I have from my SAR to Lloyds is a photo copy of the application form, then a photo copy of what I presume is the T&C from the back of the application form. You are right there are no T&C for the PPI, in fact no mention at all in the T&C.

No Lloyds didn't reduce the balance so like you say the default notice they issued would be wrong as it included the PPI and the charges on the account.

 

I've received nothing back from the solicitors despite giving them 7 days to comply, I will ring them today and email then informing them I am going to apply for a strike out.

I'm keep you informed

[makkapakka69]

Finally, an update!!!

 

Well after years of trying to get this sorted, finally Lloyds TSB (or Lloyds bank as they are now known as again),

have agreed that the PPI was mis-sold and have offered a refund.

 

However, as per normal Lloyds antics, their offer of compensation seems way short of what I was expecting.

 

I'm about to start the process of going through all my statements and totting up all the premiums,

but even without the figures, their offer seems low.

They have sent lots of explanations on how they have calculated the refund, but it doesn't look right.

 

Background info:

 

Card opened in 1999, and defaulted in 2008.

Card often up to limit and PPI premiums ranged from a few quid to £60 a month. I would say an average payment would be around £30.

Balance around £6,000 when sold to DCA.

 

The refund is made up of:

Refund of premiums £1250

Interest at 8% calculated to date of default £0.18 (yes 18 pence!) (less interest of 4 pence!)

Other losses £36

Additional compensation for distress £250

 

They say that they are only required to refund from the date of default, not today's date. Is this correct?

 

I've claimed back PPI on another Morgan Stanley credit card before and was given a lot more than this including full proper 8% interest, so i'm confused. I knew they wouldn't refund interest in restitution at this point, but thought the offer would be higher.

 

Any thoughts would be helpful.

 

MP.

[ims21]

You should be getting the premiums back plus any contractual interest charged on those premiums.

 

In addition the card account should be reconstructed with the above removed and if the reconstruction shows that in any month the account would have been in credit you should get 8% simple on that credit balance for that month.

 

In order to check the offer you will need all of your statements....do you have them all?

[makkapakka69]

Thanks for getting back quick ims21.

 

Have got statements from 2001 to 2008, when the account defaulted from my SAR.

Nothing from 1999 or 2000, but card limit was only £1,000 then so premiums wouldn't have been much.

They are up in the loft, so i'll get them down in the morning and go through them after work tomorrow.

 

I think the 18 pence interest is for the credit balance you mention.

 

The covering letter says that the refund of premiums also includes interest, but doesn't say how much of it is interest. I don't think they have included it though because they have auto deducted 4 pence income tax from the credit interest, but nothing from there.

 

No mention of any interest rate on the card or anything!

 

MP.

[ims21]

I would ask them for a breakdown of the figures to give you the amount for the actual premiums and the contractual interest.

 

The interest rate should be shown on your statements.

[makkapakka69]

Thanks again.

 

I'll go through the statements tomorrow night and get back. I think the interest rate ranged from 14.9% to 19.9% over the years, but would have to double check.

 

If I paid £50 a month ppi around 2006/2007, what would the contractual interest be approx on that now?

 

What do you make of them saying that they only have to refund up to the time of the default?

 

MP.

[ims21]

In order to check the interest you would need to complete a spreadsheet so I can't guess at the amount of interest.

 

When the account was defaulted and terminated, they would have stopped charging interest at that point. As a result there will be no further interest to come back after that event. That is what they mean by refunding up to that point.

[makkapakka69]

But I thought that you always claimed up to the current date?

 

Thats what happened when I reclaimed from Barclaycard for my old Morgan Stanley card.

 

MP.

[ims21]

Were those accounts still live or were they paid off in full?

 

This one has defaulted so no interest would have been added after the account was terminated so they are not required to repay any interest beyond that date.

[makkapakka69]

No, it was defaulted like this one. All of my credit accounts defaulted in 2007/2008 when I entered into my DMP.

 

The only difference was that the original creditor Morgan Stanley had sold its portfolio to Goldfish which was then sold to Barclaycard.

 

But the account was actually sold off to a DCA when the account was still with Goldfish.

 

I chased Barclaycard and they paid up, right up to the date at the time.

 

MP.

[ims21]

I think if you go back and check the figures for those accounts, if the awards were done on a regulatory basis, then no interest would have been paid for a period after the date the account was terminated and interest stopped being charged.

 

I would be very surprised if they did unless it was an error on their part.

[makkapakka69]

This was back in May 2010. Have the regs changed?

 

They say refund was made up of premiums + compound interest + 8% simple interest as in line with FOS. Definitely up to date of claim.

 

Thats not what the FOS website says now?

 

Confused!!!

 

MP.

[ims21]

You may have been lucky but I am not aware that regulatory redress has changed.

 

The idea, as I am sure you are aware, is to put a claimant back in the position they would have been in had the PPI not been applied in the first place. In addition 8% is awarded for periods where they have been deprived of their money, hence the 8% simple on a reconstructed credit balance.

 

The way that 8% simple can run up to date is where a card is paid off in full and 8% is awarded on the difference between the actual balance paid off and the reconstructed balance. That is because a claimant would have effectively overpaid and been deprived of money from the date of payment right up to the date of settlement of the claim.

[makkapakka69]

Perhaps they thought the account had been settled correctly with it not being their account initially?

 

Will do some digging around online to see if there are any similar cases.

 

Will get back tomorrow night with figures from statements.

 

Thanks for advice ims21.

 

MP.

[ims21]

Okies

[dx100uk]

I think what bc were doing was 8% stat int on the CI figure from from the day they stopped charging int

to the day they settled.

 

dx