Help Please! Been arrested for breaking into my own car on my property!

[sparkyuiop]

Today I had a knock at the door by someone with a clipboard

so being in an area that gets more than its fair share of canvassers, I decided not to open it.

 

From my Window I watched the man walk back to a small car parked opposite my house on the other side of the road.

After a few minutes he removed a wheel clamp and bent down to fit it to the front wheel of my car parked outside my house.

 

As soon as I saw this I opened my door and called to ask him what he was doing.

 

He said that 5 letters had been sent to my address about an unpaid parking fine that I acquired somewhere in Dorset (where I live) that I had not paid.

 

He also said he had personally delivered notification that he would attend to remove my car if I did not contact them regarding the issue

and that Salisbury county court had authorized an order to seize my vehicle.

 

I realize that denial to acknowledge receipt of any of the letters they said were sent would be a bold lie that would not be believed by anyone but unfortunately for me that is the case.

Also my post box is secure and I don’t have anyone living with me that would take my mail!

 

I told the bailiff this but obviously he did not believe me and said if I did not pay the £500 odd quid that he wanted the car would be towed within the hour.

I offered to pay a weekly amount to try and buy some time to find out how this has happened but was told he needed it all or the car was going.

 

I am self employed as a computer engineer and need my car to work so knowing he had not secured the clamp, I told him I was going to remove some articles,

got in, locked the door, started the engine and pulled away.

 

The clamp got stuck for a second and the bailiff was laughing and telling me I would break the car but then it ‘pinged’ off and I drove the car to another location where it remains.

 

Just to add, he stopped laughing when the clamp came off and there is no damage to my car whatsoever and only a few very small scrape marks on the road.

I’m pretty sure this did not damage his clamp either.

 

One of my neighbours said they saw him throw the clamp into the back of his car with some frustration after I had left.

 

When I returned home he had written on the bill / letter he was showing me that he was going to report the car as being stolen.

 

I then wrote a letter to his company after reading advice on the internet about bailiffs not being allowed to take ‘tools of the trade’, which I will post tomorrow.

I tried to go to their website to email a copy but their site shows a ‘Page not displayed’ error!

 

I have now just phoned the local police (some hours later) to verify the car as being reported stolen

but they say that this is not something they are able to do as it is not their property but apparently they do have a right to seize it if they find it.

 

However the police officer also states that if I were to take it back from them after they had taken it from me it would likely remain a civil matter and they would not be willing to be involved.

 

I am going to contact Dorset council tomorrow to find out what this is about

and (I really do hope) why the letters have not been delivered to me or what has happened to them.

 

If anyone has any advice on this or can suggest anything I should do I would appreciate the help.

[sparkyuiop]

If I were to put the car in my rear garden behind locked (although low) gates coould they still take it?

[dx100uk]

no

 

dx

[seanamarts]

You are a man of few words DX, might help to elaborate

[brassnecked]

He might climb over the gate and clamp the car though, and argue the tosslater

[sparkyuiop]

Thanks DX. May I ask your experience level with this stuff?

 

If the bailiff does jump over and clamp the car on my property is that not tresspass? Beside that if he jumps into my property in front of me and does not leave immediatly I know I am going to hurt him badly enough to end up in prison anyway. Would I also not be legally allowed to remove an item by force if on my property without consent?

I'm thinking of fitting a strong steel brace to the driveway, rounding off the bolts and driving the car over it before securing with a heavy chain and lock over the rear axel. I will make the chain short enough not to be able to roll the car to expose the brace and fit a heavy guage lock. What do you think?

[dx100uk]

i doubt you will need to go that far

 

contact the council and the court

 

findout exactly what is going on

and why you di not receive the docs

 

i think you will find that will desolve the issues

 

but as pointed, he could quite legLLY JUMP THE FENCE

 

DX

[ShinySheen]

Double check this but as far as i know Bailiffs or HCEO's are trespass exempt as long as "you are the person" owing the Debt IE if they had jumped over your fence and you are not the debtor mistaken identity then the Bailiff / enforcement officer would have commit trespass

 

A distress shall not be deemed unlawful on account of any defect or want of form in the liability order, and no person making a distress shall be deemed a trespasser on that account; and no person making a distress shall be deemed a trespasser from the beginning on account of any subsequent irregularity in making the distress, but a person sustaining special damage by reason of the subsequent irregularity may recover full satisfaction for the special damage (and no more) by proceedings in trespass or otherwise.

Thanks DX. May I ask your experience level with this stuff?

 

If the bailiff does jump over and clamp the car on my property is that not tresspass? Beside that if he jumps into my property in front of me and does not leave immediatly I know I am going to hurt him badly enough to end up in prison anyway. Would I also not be legally allowed to remove an item by force if on my property without consent?

I'm thinking of fitting a strong steel brace to the driveway, rounding off the bolts and driving the car over it before securing with a heavy chain and lock over the rear axel. I will make the chain short enough not to be able to roll the car to expose the brace and fit a heavy guage lock. What do you think?

[tomtubby]

If you had not received any statutory notices in relation to the parking tickets then it is a simple matter that you can file Out of Time Statutory Declarations with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. All enforcement will then have to cease whilst the local authority are considering your application.

 

You will need to check the precise address where the council had been writing to you. If you need any further info, please post back.

[sparkyuiop]

If you had not received any statutory notices in relation to the parking tickets then it is a simple matter that you can file Out of Time Statutory Declarations with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. All enforcement will then have to cease whilst the local authority are considering your application.

 

You will need to check the precise address where the council had been writing to you. If you need any further info, please post back.

 

That is useful information, I'll look into that. Thank you.

[sparkyuiop]

Beaten the Bailiff? At least it will buy me some time. Quite a bit I reckon!

[brassnecked]

Beaten the Bailiff? At least it will buy me some time. Quite a bit I reckon!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30879[/ATTACH]

 

Still won't stop the bailiff putting his clamp on though if he goes over a locked gate. You need to enquire as to where the fine is from, as Bailiffs are less than scrupulous when searching for someone, anyone with a name approximately like the one on the warrant will do

[hallowitch]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?252408

 

read post 8 by tomtubby

 

You need to URGENTLY contact the Traffic Enforcement Centre by phone ( which is a NIGHMARE as they have changed their phone system and we have had delays of 90 minutes this week getting through) Tel: 08457 045 007 .

 

It would be best to visit the website and you will need to fill in a TE7 & TE9

form and state on it something along the following lines:

 

I was unable to file this statement within time because it was not until a bailiff company clamped my vehicle that I was made aware that all statutory notices had been sent to my previous address at ( put previous address).

[sparkyuiop]

A few weeks ago I had a knock at the door by someone with a clipboard so being in an area that gets more than its fair share of canvassers, I decided not to open it. From my Window I watched the man walk back to a small car parked opposite my house on the other side of the road. After a few minutes he removed a wheel clamp and bent down to fit it to the front wheel of my car EDIT parked outside my house.

 

As soon as I saw this I opened my door and called to ask him what he was doing. He said that he was a bailiff acting on behalf of Salisbury county court sent to recover my vehicle due to an unpaid parking fine from Dorset county council EDIT. He was pointing to a sheet of paper on his clip board to verify this to me but he showed me no I.D to verify who he was.

I told him I had no knowledge of this fine but he stated that 5 letters had been sent to my address regarding the fine and requesting payment. He also said that he had personally delivered notification that he would attend to remove my car if I did not contact them regarding the fine. I told him that I had not received that notification either but since have found it in my junk mail recycling box that I keep in my workshop in my garden. The notification that he refers to looks like the usual junk leaflets we get so often about selling our house or other things posted by cold callers when we are not at home. It also was not in an envelope and likely among other junk mail which helped me to overlook it.

 

I told the bailiff that I now know as Mr.EDIT l that I had not received any of the letters he claims were sent and that my post box is secure and I don’t have anyone living with me that would take my mail or prevent me from seeing it but clearly he did not believe me and said if I did not pay the £629 that he wanted the car would be towed within the hour. I offered to pay a weekly amount to try and buy some time to find out how this has happened but was told he needed it all or the car was going.

 

I am self employed as a computer engineer and need my car to work so knowing he had not secured the clamp, I told him I was going to remove some articles, got in, locked the door, started the engine and pulled away. Mr.EDIT started laughing and shouting to me through the closed window that I would break the car but the clamp just fell off as I predicted it would as he had not had time to secure it.

When I was safely away from the bailiff I got out to check my car and there was no damage to my car whatsoever and so I am quite sure this did not damage his clamp either. My partner, who had been watching from indoors later told me she saw him throw the clamp into the back of his car with some frustration after I had left.

 

When I returned home Mr.EDIT had posted the bill / letter he was showing me on his clipboard through my letterbox and hand wrote on the bottom of it that he was going to report the car as being stolen if I did not contact him ASAP. Being concerned if this was true and that he was actually allowed to do this I phoned the local police to verify his authority to do so. The police woman I spoke to said that this is not something they are able to do as it is not their property but apparently they do have a right to seize it if they find it. However the police officer also stated that if I were to take it back from them after they had taken it from me it would remain a civil matter and they would not be willing to be involved.

 

I then wrote a letter to the bailiff’s company after researching advice on the internet about bailiffs not being allowed to take ‘tools of the trade’, which I consider my car to be as I use it in the course of my self-employment as a computer engineer to carry tools, equipment and customers computers. As a further precaution I started to park my car in my rear garden behind closed gates and bought a ground anchor, heavy chain and a quality padlock that I fixed to the driveway, drove my car over and secured it to the front drive shafts. I continued to do this for over a week but it was quite time consuming and delayed me from my call-out jobs for work. I began to assume that the bailiff company had accepted that my car was required for my employment and had decided not to pursue the recovery and so no longer chained my car to the ground but did continue to park it in my rear garden.

 

On 22/11/2011 around lunchtime there was a knock at the door that I thought was a customer that I was expecting to collect a computer part. The customer is also a person with an interest in electronics and we often talk for long periods on the phone when he calls. For this reason I pre-warned my partner he was coming and had asked her to open the door and say I was not in so that we could spend our lunch-time together as we try to every day. When my partner opened the door I realized it was indeed another bailiff asking about my car from the bits of the conversation I managed to pick up. My partner told him I wasn’t here and that she would call me for him and closed the door.

 

I immediately went into my rear garden to secure my car with the ground anchor but found another two bailiffs already in my garden, having opened the gates, blocked my exit with their car by reversing it on to my property and damaging one of my gate posts in the process and also had already fitted two clamps to the rear wheels of my car. I knew immediately that there was no way possible to prevent them from taking my car now and I had not parked it close enough to the ground anchor to secure it. With no way to move the car forward I thought the best thing to do was to remove my personal items, car stereo equipment and amplifiers that I have spent much money on and work related items (Sat-Nav containing customer addresses, USB data sticks containing work files and diagnostic software etc) from the car. I did say to the bailiff that he couldn’t take my car as I needed it to work but he said this applied only to vans which again I knew was just another lie.

 

I headed back to the house where my workshop entrance also is to get the keys to my car. On my way I realized that the bailiff may have already been in my workshop and taken my keys and possibly customers computers as I had not locked it when going indoors for lunch and I had not seen them enter my property. The bailiff started following me past my car and up my garden towards my back door and entrance to my work-shop. I turned and shouted at him to stay away from me as I did not want him past my car and near my house and nor was there any reason for him to be anywhere else having secured what he had came for. I had to tell him three times and each time he replied, “Or what?” but he did keep a comfortable distance from me and my property. I did not reply to his ‘or what’ comments as I couldn’t think of a genuine answer but on the third time I felt compelled to say something so said, “Well stay away from me and we won’t have to find out”.

 

Once I had entered my workshop I was quite sure that no computers or equipment had been interfered with but I could not locate my house keys which also contained my car keys. I spend much time in my workshop and it is usually the first place I go when arriving home with customer equipment and so most of the time I leave my keys there. I opened the back door of my house and called to my partner to help look for my keys indoors in case I had taken them in. She had become quite distraught by the situation at this point and I started to feel angry that she was upset, that I could not find the keys, that I had to keep checking the bailiff was keeping his distance from my house and that soon a tow truck would be here to take my car.

 

I went outside to check I had not left them in the car or if the bailiff had them. As I approached my car I found the bailiff was standing by the driver’s door and he started to ask me if I was going to talk to him about the matter to which I then replied, “I want to take my stuff out of the car, have you got my car keys?” He said that he had not, which I expected him to say anyway to be honest. I figured he didn’t want to risk the fact that I may be stupid enough to attempt to drive my car with two wheel clamps on it and cause serious damage to it. I’m sure he doesn’t realize that I was aware that he had not fitted the clamp when I drove it away last time and that I may think that I just got lucky?

 

After returning to my workshop and looking again with no result and my partner also failing to find my keys I said to the bailiff that if he had my keys, unlock the car or I would break into it. He was standing at the rear of my garden past the car next to the gates and answered my question with another question of something along the lines of, “Are you going to talk to me sensibly now...”

Assuming the tow truck by now was probably just yards away, I did not have £629 (probably more now) to give him and that he had my keys and was going to keep them I went to my workshop, got a large flat ended screwdriver and went to the passenger side of my car and broke the window. I did this by pushing the blade into the window runner and pulling backwards. I then threw the screwdriver into the car and leaned through the window to start to remove my car stereo and CD’s. I tried to open the door but the car dead-locked them.

 

The bailiff then started coming toward me again from the gates where he had been since I told him I would break into the car if he did not give me the keys saying something about calling the police and I again just told him to stay away from me and hoped (at the time) that he would call the police. I removed the CD’s and the stereo and took them to my workshop before going back and climbing into the car through the broken window to remove my Sat-Nav, data drives, amplifiers and sub that was in the back of the car and out of reach from leaning through the window.

 

Within minutes of being inside the car I saw two police officers approach the broken window and order me to get out of the car and put down the ‘weapon’ which I assume to be the screwdriver that I had not touched since throwing on the seat. I was initially glad to see the police until they spoke to me and it was clear they thought I was somehow being a threat. Their presence however did calm me and I thought they would allow me to remove my things from the car before it was towed so I immediately got out of the car as they requested in a cool and calm manner.

 

Once out of the car I could see that more police had arrived in another car and were talking to the bailiffs. I started to explain to the officer I was with that I thought the bailiff had my keys and what was going on when one of the police that were talking with the bailiffs came over and handcuffed me. I asked them what this was in aid of and they stated the bailiff had told them I had been acting in a threatening manner and that they did not have my car keys. I denied acting in a threatening manner as I do now but it seemed the police no longer wanted to talk to me about anything, only to the bailiff who had now decided to stand outside my garden for the first time.

 

My partner came out and started to cry so I asked her to calm down and have another look for my keys. While she was gone I asked the officer I was with if I could retrieve my items from the car and was told I could. Within a minute my partner returned with my keys that she had found in the house after all. I now believe that previous to the police arriving and being somewhat in a panic to find them we must have overlooked them. This then prompted the bailiff to shout out, “Oh now she finds the keys” in his accusing sarcastic tone of voice. I thought it odd though that he would expect me to waste all that time pretending to look for them, have to climb through the broken window to get things out when I could have unlocked the door and taken my possessions long before the police or tow truck arrived.

 

My partner, holding my keys, asked one of the officers if she could remove my items as I had asked her to do. He said that she could but as soon as she went to unlock the door the bailiff told the police to stop her as they were claiming the ‘Car and Contents’. The officer then asked her to give him my keys and he handed them to the bailiff. I had also noticed the bailiff showing the police a copy of the letter I had sent them about my car being required for business use.

 

I was then arrested for criminal damage to a motor vehicle and taken painfully in hand-cuffs over ten miles to the police station. I was strip searched and put in a cell for around three hours with no shoes and a pair of jogging bottoms provided by the police as mine had a cord in them. I was interviewed and accused of breaking “my” car window for no other reason than to cause a fear of threatening behaviour towards the bailiff when he did nothing but try and provoke me into threatening him. When I told the officers that I had been advised by phone by a police officer that even if the bailiffs took my car and I took it back they wouldn’t want to be involved and likely the call was recorded, they did not seem interested in pursuing it.

 

I have now been bailed to return to the police station on the 7th of December 2011.

 

The police since requested that my partner go to the police station to make a statement which she has now done although they will not tell either of us anything about what is going on.

 

I have phoned the citizens advice about recovering my car and / or its contents as I have not been able to work since I have lost it and they say they cannot help as they have no powers. They did however send me a couple of quotes from (I assume) a law book and one states as follows:

 

County Court Judgements: What Goods May Be Levied

72

Goods, but not fixtures belonging to you may be levied. Bailiffs cannot seize clothing, bedding, household equipment, furniture, necessary to satisfy basic domestic needs, and those tools, books, vehicles and other equipment which are necessary for your work.

 

The bailiff also did not leave a receipt for the car and I have been unable to locate it. I phoned the bailiffs office and they refuse to tell me where it is or how to get my belongings.

The solicitor I have spoken to also says it is not something they can help me with and oddly feel they don’t need to see me until I next attend the police station, even though they have no information about what has happened.

I have sought and followed advice from the moment this all started and yet all I have gained is unemployment, about £2000 loss of goods and a possible criminal conviction.

Edited November 26, 2011 by seanamarts
Taken out personal information

[havinastella]

You really need to put this into paragraphs!

 

No one will read what is posted!

 

Jogs

[sparkyuiop]

LOL! Well that don't surprise me, I guess I'm just doomed with this! I'm not so great with writing. I did my best with MS Word so I hope someone kindly takes time to struggle through it and advise me:-(

[dx100uk]

have added line breaks

 

dx

[sparkyuiop]

Thanks dx

[dx100uk]

please refrain from posting pers details.

 

who were the bailff co.

 

sadly

i see nothing really wrong with the bailiffs actions

 

the issue of your car being used for business can also shoot your in the foot here

 

is it a registered business car

has it business insurance

if not, you might find later issues with this too as it should have business insurance.

 

if it has, then you need to fwd a copy of this to the bailiffs company and demand it is returned.

 

as for the police involvement etc

 

they were pos 'talked up' by the bailff about the screwdriver

but

he only has what happened before to go on.

 

you did damage their equipment etc etc

we all know you did not mean too, but, thats how a judge might see it if you did want to press any charges for wrongful arrest or complain.

 

sorry its not what you might want ot hear, but, thats how it looks.

 

now, if you have had several letters ibet oyu must have had a levy for the car

 

if so, they can take it.

 

as for the extra fees

 

you'll need to get a breakdown of them from the bailiff co.

 

dx

[sparkyuiop]

The bailiff was Empire Enforcement, Ferndown, Dorset.

I did not break any of their equipment

I at no point acted aggressive toward anyone

What upsets me the most is the police saying they wouldn't get involved even if I took my car from the bailiff, the bailiff not reporting my car stolen the first time, further convincing me he was full of **** and getting arrested for breaking into my own car on my own property and being told by the police the car belongs to the bailiff if he lays his hands on it (and I'm expected to know that) after what the police told me the first time.

[dx100uk]

ok

good you've clarified important points there

 

the guys will be along in the morning.

 

i'm not totally sure 'where' you stand on this being arrested for damaging your own vehicle, but pers i don't think you can 'steal' your own vehicle.

though the 'lay his hands on it ' bit is BS. he has to of notified he will levy on it in writing before he does anything to it.

 

it might be an idea to scan up what paperwork you have

but be SURE you sanitise it.

 

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all pers info inc barcodes etc using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

or use word and save as pdf

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB:you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

the hit reply button

 

 

as for the bailiff himself

there are ways online you can check he is a certiffied bailiff - if he is not - then it blows the whole thing out the water!

 

catch you in the morning

 

dx

[seanamarts]

If you were unaware of the PCN, then the first thing you need to do is contact the TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre) and apply for an out of time state declaration. Unfortunately if you had done this as soon as the bailiffs were involved your car would not have been taken and bailiff action would have been put on hold.

 

When the bailiff first made a visit he should of left you a notice of seizure, listed on this would have been your car. Also should of stated what the fees and charges were.

 

Unless your car is insured for work purposes only then I am afraid he can levy your car, however he cannot levy the items inside if they are solely used for work purposes. A list of everything in the car that they took should of been listed in the levy. If these items were not listed then they should not have taken them. This may of made the levy unlawful.

 

Once a levy has been made on any property then those items become the property of the authority, Im afraid if you broke into your car they can infact have you arrested as the car has been seized and is the property of the authority. However if they had not given you a list of seized goods then you would not have known this would you.

 

How much is your car worth?

were you aware that you had a PCN?

How much is the equipment worth in the car

Was there any personal details in the car subject to data protection, eg; laptop iphone etc

 

Im afraid to say the police acted correctly under the circumstance.

 

 

First thing is first is to get in touch with the TEC information below;

http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/northampton-bulk-centre/traffic-enforcement-centre/statutory-declarations.htm

[welsh1]

If you were unaware of the PCN, then the first thing you need to do is contact the TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre) and apply for an out of time state declaration. Unfortunately if you had done this as soon as the bailiffs were involved your car would not have been taken and bailiff action would have been put on hold.

 

When the bailiff first made a visit he should of left you a notice of seizure, listed on this would have been your car. Also should of stated what the fees and charges were.

 

Unless your car is insured for work purposes only then I am afraid he can levy your car, however he cannot levy the items inside if they are solely used for work purposes. A list of everything in the car that they took should of been listed in the levy. If these items were not listed then they should not have taken them. This may of made the levy unlawful.

 

Once a levy has been made on any property then those items become the property of the authority, Im afraid if you broke into your car they can infact have you arrested as the car has been seized and is the property of the authority. However if they had not given you a list of seized goods then you would not have known this would you.

 

How much is your car worth?

were you aware that you had a PCN?

How much is the equipment worth in the car

Was there any personal details in the car subject to data protection, eg; laptop iphone etc

 

Im afraid to say the police acted correctly under the circumstance.

 

 

First thing is first is to get in touch with the TEC information below;

http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/northampton-bulk-centre/traffic-enforcement-centre/statutory-declarations.htm

 

 

The op mentions early in his post that he LATER FOUND CORRESPONDANCE FROM THE BAILIFF IN HIS RECYCLING BIN IN THE WORKSHOP,so he was aware of the pcn.

Making a declaration that he knew nothing about the debt would be a lie.

[seanamarts]

The op mentions early in his post that he LATER FOUND CORRESPONDANCE FROM THE BAILIFF IN HIS RECYCLING BIN IN THE WORKSHOP,so he was aware of the pcn.

Making a declaration that he knew nothing about the debt would be a lie.

From the bailiff yes, Did it state it was for a PCN??

 

He would be making a dec stating he knew nothing about the PCN.

[welsh1]

From the bailiff yes, Did it state it was for a PCN??

 

He would be making a dec stating he knew nothing about the PCN.

 

Point taken,

But usually it states why the bailiff is there on their letter,on behalf of( insert council,tfl etc)for outstanding council tax/ parking offence/etc.

I think the op needs a good solicitor to look at everything and try to minimise damage more than anything else.