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    • Two quick and immediate points:   1. Do NOT get your employer to suggest you were exhausted. You shouldn't drive whilst exhausted and it aggravates the offences. But in any case, since you are pleading guilty to them it doesn't matter. The circumstances of each offence are not relevant when the court considers your EH argument. By that time you have been convicted of them and how or why they happened is not a consideration.    2. Instead your employer's letter to the court should concentrate on the "Hardship" that others (e.g. the company or your colleagues) will suffer if you are banned. It should also cover why no alternatives are available to them (e.g. are your skills and knowledge scarce such that they cannot easily be replaced; can they not train somebody else quickly to do your job). That sounds harsh but your employer will be asking the court to accept that they will suffer hardship. Part of doing that is to demonstrate that no practical alternatives are available.   Remember, you will get three points for each offence whatever mitigation you offer for them - that is the minimum. So you don't need to concentrate on that. Concentrate on explaining the exceptional hardship that you or others will suffer.
    • Well that sounds a bit more hopeful. I suggest that you search the land registry https://eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/eservices/FindAProperty/view/QuickEnquiryInit.do and if you happen to find that he is the owner of the property then you've got a very good chance at enforcing a judgement. He doesn't own the property then I think we have serious problems. I think that the search costs may be about £3 or so. This is definitely worthwhile doing
    • but you sent a cca request to the claimant did you not?   dx  
    • So would I need to cancel the Mediation?  
    • Same office he just shifted his jive-ass and chair to another desk.  Excel and VCS same Company Simon has lost inb court confused by what hat he had on when he issued the claim.
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    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
    • Natwest Bank Transfer Fraud Call HMRC Please help. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428951-natwest-bank-transfer-fraud-call-hmrc-please-help/&do=findComment&comment=5079786
      • 31 replies

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Hi Folks,

 

Briefly....started work for a compnay on 11th Oct 2011 and went on sick with Depression on 28th Oct. Reason is that I am a gay man and I received constant comments and 3 members of staff bullying and harassing me on a daily basis about my sexuality "wife" and my civil partnership. Hand drawn pictures (pornographic) of men.

 

I have submitted by grievance and am awaiting a meeting probably next week. I am only getting SSP and am at a financial loss of about £1,200 per month.

 

They are a SME company with about 30 employees and I feel at present I could not go back. My doctor is comitted to supporting me and as I am depressed he will keep signing me off till I am fit.

 

At the meeting do I suggest a Compromise Agreement ? I know I can take a Tribunal claim but don't feel I could afford this.

 

Your views would be helpful.

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Hello John and welcome to the forum. If you haven't had any answers yet, it's because the people with the right knowledge haven't looked in yet. Please bear with us, I'm sure they will turn up when they can.

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm not sure it's for you to suggest a CA. I always thought that was for the other side, could be wrong.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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just to confirm.....you worked for 17 days before going on the sick?

Please contact a member of the site team if you are offered help off the forum for a a paid or no win no fee service.

 

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Hello again.

 

Playing devil's advocate, they might argue that 17 days isn't very long and suggest that the depression has been caused by something else in your life.

 

Can you prove what you've told us about discrimination to the employer if you need to?

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hello again.

 

Playing devil's advocate, they might argue that 17 days isn't very long and suggest that the depression has been caused by something else in your life.

 

Can you prove what you've told us about discrimination to the employer if you need to?

 

My best, HB

 

Yes I can prove that the comments were said and I detailed them as they happened. It became common practise for the comments and to be honest 17 days was enough. In 2011 you'd expect a more open and diverse workplace, its accepted people have their own views but not in the workplace. I feel I am the one that has done wrong - Im financially at a loss due to not working and I'd love to go back to work there, however the majority of the workforce would have to be willing to change their attitide to me - this is unlikley.

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Personally I think suggesting a compromise agreement sounds planned and contrived for a monetary end ie you entered the job with an agenda. Hence I wouldn't raise money until they do... stick to the actual facts of the grievance.

 

I agree with HB I would imagine a line of attack would be that you had the illness before and have entered the job with the sole intention to enact a legal remedy for a discriminatory matter come what may. Can you clarify if you have been involved in proceedings before for discrimination and if yes did you claim for a depressive illness? This is relevant as too many proceedings may prove that you are a vexatious litigant and go against you.

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Personally I think suggesting a compromise agreement sounds planned and contrived for a monetary end ie you entered the job with an agenda. Hence I wouldn't raise money until they do... stick to the actual facts of the grievance.

 

I agree with HB I would imagine a line of attack would be that you had the illness before and have entered the job with the sole intention to enact a legal remedy for a discriminatory matter come what may. Can you clarify if you have been involved in proceedings before for discrimination and if yes did you claim for a depressive illness? This is relevant as too many proceedings may prove that you are a vexatious litigant and go against you.

 

I have never claimed before, and the only reason I mention it was after looking on Equality website. My issue is that I had 17 days of unprovoked comments about my sexuality. This is not about money, its about trying to resolve the issue with my employer. I would consider working from home, I live in the real world and accept that 17 days work would mean little or no compensation. Its hard hearing comments and other related issues, that I wont go into on this forum. Thanks for your comments anyway folks.

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Hi John

 

Normally posters do actually go into "comments and other related issues" as these actually are very helpful when trying to help people with problems.

 

Assuming that you do have the evidence then the issuing of a grievance is the first steps you have to take, which I am sure you do know in any event.

 

I think you are right 17 days may attract little compensation... but then again courts and tribunals also are aware that discrimination has to be countered and punished appropriately, so not all is lost, I suppose it depends on the seriousness of the discrimination.

 

Have you any verifiable 'independent' evidence? Have you any union or friend to assist you at the grievance?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for your reply, my employer have allowed me to take an independent person from local Rainbow project. The grievance is set for 7th December and no I dont have any independent evidence. I do have emails from when I went sick and they employed someone and changed my sales to this persons name.

 

Hi John

 

Normally posters do actually go into "comments and other related issues" as these actually are very helpful when trying to help people with problems.

 

Assuming that you do have the evidence then the issuing of a grievance is the first steps you have to take, which I am sure you do know in any event.

 

I think you are right 17 days may attract little compensation... but then again courts and tribunals also are aware that discrimination has to be countered and punished appropriately, so not all is lost, I suppose it depends on the seriousness of the discrimination.

 

Have you any verifiable 'independent' evidence? Have you any union or friend to assist you at the grievance?

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Well met with person who is coming on grievance tomorrow at 10am. The anger has gone away, and I now ask myself what I want to achieve. All I know is that my work colleagues said some pretty terrible things against me and bullied and victamised me. Now I need to hold my head up, bight the bullet and go to the grievance with an open mind. In reality nothing gonna happen with exception of me possibly reconsidering my employment options over xmas......not so good. Any advise folks...greatly appreciated.

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Grievance took place yesterday 6/12/11. One of the original directors was "sick" so they had to replace with a worker from the office to take notes. I was assured of confidentiality but we will wait and see. They asked no questions and really asked me to read through my grievance and that was it. The lady I had from Rainbow project stated she would be happt to provide diversity training to company. Advised what I wanted as an outcome and said I needed to see the results of the investigation. I did ask them to consider paying me full pay while this was getting dealt with as I was at a financial loss during a stressful time of year.

 

That was it...no more questions and I will hear from them in due course. Seemed really strange they were told nothing new and I felt the meeting was a formality. Will keep you updated.

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Hi Folks,

Well its 7 days since my grievance and not a email or letter from my employer. I read the Company handbook in detail last night and it said they will resolve grievance within 7 days. At which stage I can appeal the decision. Im in a difficult place now because after getting some advice, and in the event of submitting a claim to ET I have alleged strict timescales. The problem I have is once I submit a claim I can probably say goodbye to my job and Im sure that the outcome will not be anything to be proud about.

 

Any advice on the next stage folks.

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i would put the ET1 in don't tell the company let it land on their door step! don't resign whatever you do, just go on sick leave, keep getting a sick note from your GP, but dont resign, get the ET1 in asap, dont answer calls from the company, keep everything in writing and just stay off sick, if you have the ET1 in and are off sick, they will have to pay you even if its ssp and they cant sack you when your off sick, if they do you have an extra claim for wrongful dismissal against them, dont resign stay on the payroll even if it means being on ssp, let them sack you, just stay on sick leave and let them sack you, it will make your position much much stronger

 

you can also put in the ET1 the company have failed to respond to your grievance in the time given in its own policy and are therefore in breach

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Hi Folks,

Well its 7 days since my grievance and not a email or letter from my employer. I read the Company handbook in detail last night and it said they will resolve grievance within 7 days. At which stage I can appeal the decision. Im in a difficult place now because after getting some advice, and in the event of submitting a claim to ET I have alleged strict timescales. The problem I have is once I submit a claim I can probably say goodbye to my job and Im sure that the outcome will not be anything to be proud about.

 

Any advice on the next stage folks.

 

It is not uncommon for employers to breach their own policies when dealing with grievances do not read anything into the delay. I think they are getting legal advice and were advised just to get information from you but give nothing away at the grievance hearing.

 

Filling in the ET1 and staying on sick leave might be your best option because you would be unlikely to get another job between now and end of Jan or early Feb.

 

From the little you have said about the workplace, it does not sound like the type of place you would want to work in. Only you can decide if you want to give them another chance. Putting in an ET1 is nearly always viewed as a criminal act by the employer but it is your right and it can always be withdrawn. Plus it is free and you can do it online!

 

As for the 17 days, well this type of abuse is illegal, so that is not an issue. Moreover, if you have no history of depression, what basis is there for arguing that anything other than the abuse you suffered caused your depression. You were in a new situation where you did not know the people and it came as a total shock. I once had to leave a job after only one month because of an abusive co-worker. Management wanted me to stay but refused to deal with the issue so I felt that I could not risk it happening again. It was really depressing and disappointing to be unemployed again after just a few weeks.

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LOL Marie..... "criminal act by the employer" They invariably don't see their own criminal acts .... and in fact ACTUAL criminal acts against employees in many cases.
Just say the words "statutory right" or even the more obscene "Protected Act" and hear their teeth grind as their faces turn purple.
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Just say the words "statutory right" or even the more obscene "Protected Act" and hear their teeth grind as their faces turn purple.

 

I agree they do not like victimisation allegations at all as they tend to indicate 'personal' actions and drag individuals in to justify their own actions. That is why I like it so much, as it takes the fight to the bullying management. ......... not that I am bitter just like evening up the battleground.

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I agree they do not like victimisation allegations at all as they tend to indicate 'personal' actions and drag individuals in to justify their own actions. That is why I like it so much, as it takes the fight to the bullying management. ......... not that I am bitter just like evening up the battleground.

 

I believe they just hate the idea that making an ET claim is a right and that it is actually illegal to victimise a worker for doing so. This is all very clear in law but in reality nothing could be further from the truth. The facts are;

 

Raise a grievance - result whitewash -prepare to be dismissed a while later for misconduct or on capability grounds

 

Make and ET claim - your job is gone - be prepared for protracted legal battle - poverty - nervous collapse - low figure settlement from ET if you win

 

Redeployment after grievance or ET claim - victimisation and dismissal on grounds of misconduct or capability

 

Why do we bother to fight this ? Because it is wrong!

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Totally agree with what your saying down here below

 

Make and ET claim - your job is gone - be prepared for protracted legal battle - poverty - nervous collapse - low figure settlement from ET if you win (Employers think they are above the law and you the employee dont have any rights whatsover, you will always get a lower figure, best bet would be to settle out of court, but make life hell for your employer at the same time)

 

Redeployment after grievance or ET claim - victimisation and dismissal on grounds of misconduct or capability (Why would any employer offer you redeployment after grievance or ET claim, if you settle and sign some compromise paper, you have lost your rights to restart the ET claim anyway, suppose they would want you back after settling the ET claim and then just get you sacked after a few weeks or months knowing fully well you have signed your rights away to start the ET1 claim again, is this what you mean?)

 

What is the employers covert plan to ask you to back into work and be redeployed, whats the mentality in that?

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Totally agree with what your saying down here below

 

Make and ET claim - your job is gone - be prepared for protracted legal battle - poverty - nervous collapse - low figure settlement from ET if you win (Employers think they are above the law and you the employee dont have any rights whatsover, you will always get a lower figure, best bet would be to settle out of court, but make life hell for your employer at the same time)

 

Redeployment after grievance or ET claim - victimisation and dismissal on grounds of misconduct or capability (Why would any employer offer you redeployment after grievance or ET claim, if you settle and sign some compromise paper, you have lost your rights to restart the ET claim anyway, suppose they would want you back after settling the ET claim and then just get you sacked after a few weeks or months knowing fully well you have signed your rights away to start the ET1 claim again, is this what you mean?)

 

What is the employers covert plan to ask you to back into work and be redeployed, whats the mentality in that?

 

I did not say anything about a compromise agreement. Redeployment is usually negotiated in return for withdrawal of the ET Claim or as part of a resolution of a grievance.

 

In disability or harassment cases involving grievances but sometimes ET claims where the worker remains employed, redeployment is an option (I mean different job because of disability or to get away from bullies). If this happens, there are 2 options for employer.

 

1.Give orders for you to be left alone.

 

2. After a respectable period get rid of you for some trumped up reason.

 

 

I think redeployment like reinstatement is rarely considered for anyone who has made an ET claim, but it does happen. Also in this economic climate workers feel obliged to consider it, despite the obvious pitfalls.

Edited by Marieleeza
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  • 2 weeks later...

Just an update - work have not replied to grievance. They have however said, that they are paying me full pay for December/January due to where my allegation has led them. Not sure what that means but hopefully they are taking seriously and believe me.

 

I have also now looked at submitting a ET claim and will decide on their outcome. Have been advised to submit before 9th Jan so may ask for some help here beforehand

Edited by johnvernon74
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  • 3 weeks later...

Further update folks - Employer has not responded to grievance raised originally on 3rd November 2011 and grievance meeting on 7th December 2011. Took advice from a solicitor at start of January and have raised a ET under Sexual Orientation Discrimination.

 

This is not what I wanted and as a small company its gonna be impossible (probably) to go back and work there.

 

My employer has however, spoken to my solicitor after a letter was sent to him last week when ET1 filed. He has advised he will discuss and speak to my solicitor this week, so Im hoping that something can be resolved soon. I am however not stupid and expect loosing my job and compromise agreement is possibly only way forward.

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