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    • This is the other sign  parking sign 1a.pdf
    • 4 means that they need to name and then tell the people who will be affected that there has been an application made, what the application relates to (specificially "whether it relates to the exercise of the court’s jurisdiction in relation to P’s property and affairs, or P’s personal welfare, or to both) and what this application contains (i.e what order they want made as a result of it) 5 just means that teh court think it is important that the relevant people are notified 7 means that the court need more information to make the application, hence they have then made the order of paragraph 1 which requires the applicant to do more - this means the court can't make a decision with the current information, and need more, hence paragraph one of the order is for the applicant to do more. paragraph 3 of the order gives you the ability to have it set aside, although if it was made in january you are very late. Were you notiifed of the application or not?    
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    • Hi, In my last post I mentioned I had received an email from SS who were asking me to hand over the keys to my mother’s flat so they could pass them to the Law firm who have been appointed court of protection to access, secure and insure my mother’s property.  Feeling this, all quickly getting out of my hands I emailed ss requesting proof of this. I HAVEN’T HEARD BACK FROM SS.  Yesterday, I received an email (with attached court of protection order) from the Law Firm confirming this was correct (please see below a copy of this).  After reading the court of protection order I do have some concerns about it:   (a)   I only found out yesterday, the Law firm had been appointed by the court back in January.  Up until now, I have not received any notification regarding this.  (b)   Section 2   - States I am estranged from my mother.  This is NOT CORRECT    The only reason I stepped back from my mother was to protect myself from the guy (groomer) who had befriended her & was very aggressive towards me & because of my mother’s dementia she had become aggressive also.  I constantly tried to warned SS about this guy's manipulative behaviour towards my mother and his increasing aggressiveness towards me (as mentioned in previous posts).  Each time I was ignored.  Instead, SS encouraged his involvement with my mother – including him in her care plans and mental health assessments.   I was literally pushed out because I feared him and my mother’s increasing aggression towards me. Up until I stepped back, I had always looked after my mother and since her admission to the care home, I visit regularly.   .(c)    Sections -  4, 5 and 7  I am struggling to understand these as I don’t have a legal background.  I was wondering if there is anyone who might be able to explain what they mean.  It’s been a horrendous situation where I had to walk away from my mother at her most vulnerable because of; ss (not helping), scammer and groomer. I have no legal background, nor experience in highly manipulative people or an understanding of how the SS system operates, finding myself isolated, scared and powerless to the point I haven’t collected my personal belongings and items for my mother’s room in the care home.  Sadly, the court has only had heard one version of this story SS’s, and based their decision on that. My mother’s situation and the experience I have gone through could happen to anyone who has a vulnerable parent.    If anyone any thoughts on this much appreciated.  Thank you. ______________________________________________________  (Below is the Court of Protection Order)  COURT OF PROTECTION                                                                                                                                                                                   No xxx  MENTAL CAPACITY ACT 2005 In the matter of Name xxx ORDER Made by  Depty District Judge At xxx Made on xxx Issued on 18 January 2024  WHEREAS  1.     xxx Solicitors, Address xxx  ("Applicant”) has applied for an order under the Mental Capacity Act 2005.  2.     The Court notes (my mother) is said to be estranged from all her three children and only one, (me) has been notified.  3.     (Me) was previously appointed as Atorney for Property and Affairs for (my mother).  The Exhibity NAJ at (date) refers to (me) and all replacement Attorneys are now officially standing down.  4.     Pursuant to Rule 9.10 of the Court of Protection Rules 2017 and Practice Direction 9B the Applicant 2must seek to identify at least three persons who are likely to have an interest in being notified that an application has been issues.”  The children of (my mother), and any other appointed attorneys are likely to have an interest in the application, because of the nature of relationship to (my mother).  5.     The Court considers that the notification requirements are an important safeguard for the person in respect of whom an order is sought.  6.     The Court notes that it is said that the local authority no longer has access to (my mother’s) Property.  7.     Further information is required for the Court to determine the application.  IT IS ORDERED THAT  Within 28 days of the issue date this order, the Applicant shall file a form COP24 witness statement confirming that the other children of (my mother) and any replacement attorneys have been notified of the application and shall confirm their name, address, and date upon which those persons were notified.  If the Applicant wishes the Court to dispense with any further notification, they should file a COP9 and COP24 explaining, what steps (if any) have been taken to attempt notification and why notification should be dispensed with.   Pending the determination of the application to appoint a deputy for (my mother), the Applicant is authorised to take such steps as are proportionate and necessary to access, secure and insure the house and property of (my mother).   This order was made without a hearing and without notice.  Any person affected by this order may apply within 21 days of the date on which the order was served to have the order set aside or varied pursuant to Rule 13.4 of the Court of Protection Rules 2017 (“the Rules”).  Such application must be made on Form COP9 and in accordance with Part 10 Rules.              
    • Unless I've got an incorrect copy of the relevant regulation: The PCN is only deemed to have arrived two days after dispatch "unless the contrary is proved" in which case date of delivery does matter (not just date of posting) and I would like clarification of the required standard of proof. It seems perhaps this hasn't been tested. Since post is now barcoded for the Post Office's own tracking purposes perhaps there is some way I can get that evidence from the Post Office...
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
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Hi Folks,

 

Briefly....started work for a compnay on 11th Oct 2011 and went on sick with Depression on 28th Oct. Reason is that I am a gay man and I received constant comments and 3 members of staff bullying and harassing me on a daily basis about my sexuality "wife" and my civil partnership. Hand drawn pictures (pornographic) of men.

 

I have submitted by grievance and am awaiting a meeting probably next week. I am only getting SSP and am at a financial loss of about £1,200 per month.

 

They are a SME company with about 30 employees and I feel at present I could not go back. My doctor is comitted to supporting me and as I am depressed he will keep signing me off till I am fit.

 

At the meeting do I suggest a Compromise Agreement ? I know I can take a Tribunal claim but don't feel I could afford this.

 

Your views would be helpful.

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Hello John and welcome to the forum. If you haven't had any answers yet, it's because the people with the right knowledge haven't looked in yet. Please bear with us, I'm sure they will turn up when they can.

 

I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm not sure it's for you to suggest a CA. I always thought that was for the other side, could be wrong.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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just to confirm.....you worked for 17 days before going on the sick?

Please contact a member of the site team if you are offered help off the forum for a a paid or no win no fee service.

 

Please consider making a small donation to help keep this site running

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Hello again.

 

Playing devil's advocate, they might argue that 17 days isn't very long and suggest that the depression has been caused by something else in your life.

 

Can you prove what you've told us about discrimination to the employer if you need to?

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hello again.

 

Playing devil's advocate, they might argue that 17 days isn't very long and suggest that the depression has been caused by something else in your life.

 

Can you prove what you've told us about discrimination to the employer if you need to?

 

My best, HB

 

Yes I can prove that the comments were said and I detailed them as they happened. It became common practise for the comments and to be honest 17 days was enough. In 2011 you'd expect a more open and diverse workplace, its accepted people have their own views but not in the workplace. I feel I am the one that has done wrong - Im financially at a loss due to not working and I'd love to go back to work there, however the majority of the workforce would have to be willing to change their attitide to me - this is unlikley.

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Personally I think suggesting a compromise agreement sounds planned and contrived for a monetary end ie you entered the job with an agenda. Hence I wouldn't raise money until they do... stick to the actual facts of the grievance.

 

I agree with HB I would imagine a line of attack would be that you had the illness before and have entered the job with the sole intention to enact a legal remedy for a discriminatory matter come what may. Can you clarify if you have been involved in proceedings before for discrimination and if yes did you claim for a depressive illness? This is relevant as too many proceedings may prove that you are a vexatious litigant and go against you.

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Personally I think suggesting a compromise agreement sounds planned and contrived for a monetary end ie you entered the job with an agenda. Hence I wouldn't raise money until they do... stick to the actual facts of the grievance.

 

I agree with HB I would imagine a line of attack would be that you had the illness before and have entered the job with the sole intention to enact a legal remedy for a discriminatory matter come what may. Can you clarify if you have been involved in proceedings before for discrimination and if yes did you claim for a depressive illness? This is relevant as too many proceedings may prove that you are a vexatious litigant and go against you.

 

I have never claimed before, and the only reason I mention it was after looking on Equality website. My issue is that I had 17 days of unprovoked comments about my sexuality. This is not about money, its about trying to resolve the issue with my employer. I would consider working from home, I live in the real world and accept that 17 days work would mean little or no compensation. Its hard hearing comments and other related issues, that I wont go into on this forum. Thanks for your comments anyway folks.

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Hi John

 

Normally posters do actually go into "comments and other related issues" as these actually are very helpful when trying to help people with problems.

 

Assuming that you do have the evidence then the issuing of a grievance is the first steps you have to take, which I am sure you do know in any event.

 

I think you are right 17 days may attract little compensation... but then again courts and tribunals also are aware that discrimination has to be countered and punished appropriately, so not all is lost, I suppose it depends on the seriousness of the discrimination.

 

Have you any verifiable 'independent' evidence? Have you any union or friend to assist you at the grievance?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for your reply, my employer have allowed me to take an independent person from local Rainbow project. The grievance is set for 7th December and no I dont have any independent evidence. I do have emails from when I went sick and they employed someone and changed my sales to this persons name.

 

Hi John

 

Normally posters do actually go into "comments and other related issues" as these actually are very helpful when trying to help people with problems.

 

Assuming that you do have the evidence then the issuing of a grievance is the first steps you have to take, which I am sure you do know in any event.

 

I think you are right 17 days may attract little compensation... but then again courts and tribunals also are aware that discrimination has to be countered and punished appropriately, so not all is lost, I suppose it depends on the seriousness of the discrimination.

 

Have you any verifiable 'independent' evidence? Have you any union or friend to assist you at the grievance?

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Well met with person who is coming on grievance tomorrow at 10am. The anger has gone away, and I now ask myself what I want to achieve. All I know is that my work colleagues said some pretty terrible things against me and bullied and victamised me. Now I need to hold my head up, bight the bullet and go to the grievance with an open mind. In reality nothing gonna happen with exception of me possibly reconsidering my employment options over xmas......not so good. Any advise folks...greatly appreciated.

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Grievance took place yesterday 6/12/11. One of the original directors was "sick" so they had to replace with a worker from the office to take notes. I was assured of confidentiality but we will wait and see. They asked no questions and really asked me to read through my grievance and that was it. The lady I had from Rainbow project stated she would be happt to provide diversity training to company. Advised what I wanted as an outcome and said I needed to see the results of the investigation. I did ask them to consider paying me full pay while this was getting dealt with as I was at a financial loss during a stressful time of year.

 

That was it...no more questions and I will hear from them in due course. Seemed really strange they were told nothing new and I felt the meeting was a formality. Will keep you updated.

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Hi Folks,

Well its 7 days since my grievance and not a email or letter from my employer. I read the Company handbook in detail last night and it said they will resolve grievance within 7 days. At which stage I can appeal the decision. Im in a difficult place now because after getting some advice, and in the event of submitting a claim to ET I have alleged strict timescales. The problem I have is once I submit a claim I can probably say goodbye to my job and Im sure that the outcome will not be anything to be proud about.

 

Any advice on the next stage folks.

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i would put the ET1 in don't tell the company let it land on their door step! don't resign whatever you do, just go on sick leave, keep getting a sick note from your GP, but dont resign, get the ET1 in asap, dont answer calls from the company, keep everything in writing and just stay off sick, if you have the ET1 in and are off sick, they will have to pay you even if its ssp and they cant sack you when your off sick, if they do you have an extra claim for wrongful dismissal against them, dont resign stay on the payroll even if it means being on ssp, let them sack you, just stay on sick leave and let them sack you, it will make your position much much stronger

 

you can also put in the ET1 the company have failed to respond to your grievance in the time given in its own policy and are therefore in breach

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Hi Folks,

Well its 7 days since my grievance and not a email or letter from my employer. I read the Company handbook in detail last night and it said they will resolve grievance within 7 days. At which stage I can appeal the decision. Im in a difficult place now because after getting some advice, and in the event of submitting a claim to ET I have alleged strict timescales. The problem I have is once I submit a claim I can probably say goodbye to my job and Im sure that the outcome will not be anything to be proud about.

 

Any advice on the next stage folks.

 

It is not uncommon for employers to breach their own policies when dealing with grievances do not read anything into the delay. I think they are getting legal advice and were advised just to get information from you but give nothing away at the grievance hearing.

 

Filling in the ET1 and staying on sick leave might be your best option because you would be unlikely to get another job between now and end of Jan or early Feb.

 

From the little you have said about the workplace, it does not sound like the type of place you would want to work in. Only you can decide if you want to give them another chance. Putting in an ET1 is nearly always viewed as a criminal act by the employer but it is your right and it can always be withdrawn. Plus it is free and you can do it online!

 

As for the 17 days, well this type of abuse is illegal, so that is not an issue. Moreover, if you have no history of depression, what basis is there for arguing that anything other than the abuse you suffered caused your depression. You were in a new situation where you did not know the people and it came as a total shock. I once had to leave a job after only one month because of an abusive co-worker. Management wanted me to stay but refused to deal with the issue so I felt that I could not risk it happening again. It was really depressing and disappointing to be unemployed again after just a few weeks.

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LOL Marie..... "criminal act by the employer" They invariably don't see their own criminal acts .... and in fact ACTUAL criminal acts against employees in many cases.
Just say the words "statutory right" or even the more obscene "Protected Act" and hear their teeth grind as their faces turn purple.
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Just say the words "statutory right" or even the more obscene "Protected Act" and hear their teeth grind as their faces turn purple.

 

I agree they do not like victimisation allegations at all as they tend to indicate 'personal' actions and drag individuals in to justify their own actions. That is why I like it so much, as it takes the fight to the bullying management. ......... not that I am bitter just like evening up the battleground.

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I agree they do not like victimisation allegations at all as they tend to indicate 'personal' actions and drag individuals in to justify their own actions. That is why I like it so much, as it takes the fight to the bullying management. ......... not that I am bitter just like evening up the battleground.

 

I believe they just hate the idea that making an ET claim is a right and that it is actually illegal to victimise a worker for doing so. This is all very clear in law but in reality nothing could be further from the truth. The facts are;

 

Raise a grievance - result whitewash -prepare to be dismissed a while later for misconduct or on capability grounds

 

Make and ET claim - your job is gone - be prepared for protracted legal battle - poverty - nervous collapse - low figure settlement from ET if you win

 

Redeployment after grievance or ET claim - victimisation and dismissal on grounds of misconduct or capability

 

Why do we bother to fight this ? Because it is wrong!

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Totally agree with what your saying down here below

 

Make and ET claim - your job is gone - be prepared for protracted legal battle - poverty - nervous collapse - low figure settlement from ET if you win (Employers think they are above the law and you the employee dont have any rights whatsover, you will always get a lower figure, best bet would be to settle out of court, but make life hell for your employer at the same time)

 

Redeployment after grievance or ET claim - victimisation and dismissal on grounds of misconduct or capability (Why would any employer offer you redeployment after grievance or ET claim, if you settle and sign some compromise paper, you have lost your rights to restart the ET claim anyway, suppose they would want you back after settling the ET claim and then just get you sacked after a few weeks or months knowing fully well you have signed your rights away to start the ET1 claim again, is this what you mean?)

 

What is the employers covert plan to ask you to back into work and be redeployed, whats the mentality in that?

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Totally agree with what your saying down here below

 

Make and ET claim - your job is gone - be prepared for protracted legal battle - poverty - nervous collapse - low figure settlement from ET if you win (Employers think they are above the law and you the employee dont have any rights whatsover, you will always get a lower figure, best bet would be to settle out of court, but make life hell for your employer at the same time)

 

Redeployment after grievance or ET claim - victimisation and dismissal on grounds of misconduct or capability (Why would any employer offer you redeployment after grievance or ET claim, if you settle and sign some compromise paper, you have lost your rights to restart the ET claim anyway, suppose they would want you back after settling the ET claim and then just get you sacked after a few weeks or months knowing fully well you have signed your rights away to start the ET1 claim again, is this what you mean?)

 

What is the employers covert plan to ask you to back into work and be redeployed, whats the mentality in that?

 

I did not say anything about a compromise agreement. Redeployment is usually negotiated in return for withdrawal of the ET Claim or as part of a resolution of a grievance.

 

In disability or harassment cases involving grievances but sometimes ET claims where the worker remains employed, redeployment is an option (I mean different job because of disability or to get away from bullies). If this happens, there are 2 options for employer.

 

1.Give orders for you to be left alone.

 

2. After a respectable period get rid of you for some trumped up reason.

 

 

I think redeployment like reinstatement is rarely considered for anyone who has made an ET claim, but it does happen. Also in this economic climate workers feel obliged to consider it, despite the obvious pitfalls.

Edited by Marieleeza
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  • 2 weeks later...

Just an update - work have not replied to grievance. They have however said, that they are paying me full pay for December/January due to where my allegation has led them. Not sure what that means but hopefully they are taking seriously and believe me.

 

I have also now looked at submitting a ET claim and will decide on their outcome. Have been advised to submit before 9th Jan so may ask for some help here beforehand

Edited by johnvernon74
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  • 3 weeks later...

Further update folks - Employer has not responded to grievance raised originally on 3rd November 2011 and grievance meeting on 7th December 2011. Took advice from a solicitor at start of January and have raised a ET under Sexual Orientation Discrimination.

 

This is not what I wanted and as a small company its gonna be impossible (probably) to go back and work there.

 

My employer has however, spoken to my solicitor after a letter was sent to him last week when ET1 filed. He has advised he will discuss and speak to my solicitor this week, so Im hoping that something can be resolved soon. I am however not stupid and expect loosing my job and compromise agreement is possibly only way forward.

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