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I understand that if there is no contact with the creditor for 6 years, then the statute of limitations kicks in and the debt becomes unrecoverable regardless if the agreement is enforcable or not. If you make any form of contact in that time (except perhaps, if you deny the debt), then the 6 year period starts over. A payment would start the 6 year period over.

 

To enforce, the creditor would still need an enforcable contract.

 

I wouldn't rely on the Statute of Limitations regarding non-compliance with a CCA request, if I were a creditor - (I'm not!) s.32 specifically covers the period in which some form of concealment has taken place, so if a creditor is passing off T&C's as an enforceable agreement, s.32 could be used to argue those payments don't amount to acknowledgment of any debt as the payments were made on a misleading belief that those payments were due, which the creditor did nothing to rectify prior to receiving it.

 

If only creditors would reply saying "sorry, we don't have an enforceable agreement, but we'd still like you to make the payments agreed under the agreement until the debt is cleared, pretty please?". The issue being, of course, by not stating that clearly, they "may" be considered to have said that by things done or not said should a Judge be asked to make a call on that did go on, rather than what didn't. :p

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I wouldn't rely on the Statute of Limitations regarding non-compliance with a CCA request, if I were a creditor - (I'm not!) s.32 specifically covers the period in which some form of concealment has taken place, so if a creditor is passing off T&C's as an enforceable agreement, s.32 could be used to argue those payments don't amount to acknowledgment of any debt as the payments were made on a misleading belief that those payments were due, which the creditor did nothing to rectify prior to receiving it.

 

Has anyone managed to recover previous paid installments using this? I had a couple of agreements around 2002 which I made early repayment in full and they had faulty default notices and the agreements themselves may have been unenforcable.

If my comments have been useful please click the scales and let me know.

 

Me vs Rockwell/Tessara/RBofS: pending.

Me vs MBNA/1st Crud: Discontinued.

First Direct Overdraft: CCJ won.

IR: 2 CCJs 1 won.

Birmingham Midshires: pending

BT: pending

others to come....

 

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I understand that if there is no contact with the creditor for 6 years, then the statute of limitations kicks in and the debt becomes unrecoverable regardless if the agreement is enforcable or not. If you make any form of contact in that time (except perhaps, if you deny the debt), then the 6 year period starts over. A payment would start the 6 year period over.

 

To enforce, the creditor would still need an enforcable contract.

 

I see!

 

You say "if there's no contact with the creditor for 6 years....", does that mean if I don't contact them and totally ignore them even if they keep chasing me for the money by phone calls and letters for the 6 years?

 

In other words, if I send a letter of CCA non-compliance and they don't send me an enforceable CCA in the 6 years and I never contact them, the debt is written off?!?:-?

Mint - Won! WCO not granted by court. :)

BlackHorse Loan- Won! WCO not granted. :)

 

Easy Money & More Than (Lloyds) - Won! Had been offered half of settlement prior but declined. :)

 

Capital One - Won! :)

 

BlackHorse PPI- WON £3,000, Claimed 4,500! :)

 

CitiFinancial - WON! :)

 

****************************************************************************

 

Monument - N1 Submitted Feb09

Cahoot - N1 submitted Feb09

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Hi

 

Because an agreement is unenforceable it does not mean that the agreement has not been made.

 

Enforceablilty of the agreement would only be an issue if the agreement was defaulted and one of the parties decided to enforce its terms regarding payment or compliance.

 

If the agreement is unenforceable because of a breach it does not mean that you can stop paying.

 

It means tht if you stop paying and the agreement is indeed unenforceable the creditor cannot recover the debt though the court.

 

But if the court does does decide to enforce (and in the case of a temporary failure to deliver a 77 request they will), then all cost interest and charges will be due for the period that payment was withheld.

It makes no difference that the creditor was not complying with the act in that period.

 

If you want to withold payment then you must be prepared to argue your case under section 127 and it is a good idea to be sure of your ground because if you loose and you have withheld payment,you will find that the whole agreement will be enforced that means everything due according to the agreement will be due.

 

Regards

Peter

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DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

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I see!

 

You say "if there's no contact with the creditor for 6 years....", does that mean if I don't contact them and totally ignore them even if they keep chasing me for the money by phone calls and letters for the 6 years?

 

In other words, if I send a letter of CCA non-compliance and they don't send me an enforceable CCA in the 6 years and I never contact them, the debt is written off?!?:-?

 

If there is no contact for 6 years, regardless of a CCA request, then it is not recoverable. It is expected that the creditor will enforce the agreement via the courts within 6 years.

If my comments have been useful please click the scales and let me know.

 

Me vs Rockwell/Tessara/RBofS: pending.

Me vs MBNA/1st Crud: Discontinued.

First Direct Overdraft: CCJ won.

IR: 2 CCJs 1 won.

Birmingham Midshires: pending

BT: pending

others to come....

 

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Has anyone managed to recover previous paid installments using this? I had a couple of agreements around 2002 which I made early repayment in full and they had faulty default notices and the agreements themselves may have been unenforcable.

 

Does anyone know how unenforceable CCAs affect IVAs (Individual Voluntary Arrangement) and accounts already paid up as full and final??

Mint - Won! WCO not granted by court. :)

BlackHorse Loan- Won! WCO not granted. :)

 

Easy Money & More Than (Lloyds) - Won! Had been offered half of settlement prior but declined. :)

 

Capital One - Won! :)

 

BlackHorse PPI- WON £3,000, Claimed 4,500! :)

 

CitiFinancial - WON! :)

 

****************************************************************************

 

Monument - N1 Submitted Feb09

Cahoot - N1 submitted Feb09

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I am assuming this account was taken out prior 2006?

 

If so, if you stop paying them paulrob, you would have to put the account in dispute (is this what you put in your letter?) & claim it was because they were in breach of S77/78 of CCA1974 & that they hadn't sent you a CCA. Of course, they will then claim they have fulfilled their responsibilites ('cos the T&Cs are all they have :rolleyes:).

 

At this point they will threaten all sorts to get you to pay up & will eventually take you to court. IMO you therefore now have a choice:

 

1. You stop paying & fight it out in court, hoping that they will not turn up an enforceable CCA or

2. If you are in a position to do so, you offer a F&F of a minimal amount based on the fact that they have not got an enforceable CCA & that they would therefore lose any chance of getting anything if they tried to pursue the debt.[/quote]

 

Hya Foolish, how likely is it that bcard would accept f and f settlement if its been running only 5 months? a 5k amount alledged to be owing but nothing received? no reply to sar, no reply to cpr. Is there a sensible amount that should be offered? does that go against you if they refuse and then it goes to court.

 

They will not "eventually take you to court" if they do not have an original agreement (in the prescribed form). I know it has been known to happen, but in that situation you would of course have the perfect defence if they cannot produce the agreement, have not defaulted correctly or at all, etc. I have been taken to court by one company and it was for several accounts which I was actually paying. I have found, on the whole, that if you stop payments because an agreement has not been provided, and it turns up at a later date (very rare) which has happened to me on one occasion, then in actual fact, they do not take you to court but expect you then to contact them and commence payments again. So to give this impression that court action is a foregone conclusion is very misleading I think. Also, why should Paulrob want to make and F&F settlement when as far as he is aware to date, they do not have a valid agreement? This is just my opinion based on my own experience and as mentioned I had a large number of creditors and most of them are no longer chasing the debts. I certainly was not taken to court, although of course it was threatened on many occasions. You just need to be determined and stick to your guns. Magda

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They will not "eventually take you to court" if they do not have an original agreement (in the prescribed form). I know it has been known to happen, but in that situation you would of course have the perfect defence if they cannot produce the agreement, have not defaulted correctly or at all, etc. I have been taken to court by one company and it was for several accounts which I was actually paying. I have found, on the whole, that if you stop payments because an agreement has not been provided, and it turns up at a later date (very rare) which has happened to me on one occasion, then in actual fact, they do not take you to court but expect you then to contact them and commence payments again. So to give this impression that court action is a foregone conclusion is very misleading I think. Also, why should Paulrob want to make and F&F settlement when as far as he is aware to date, they do not have a valid agreement? This is just my opinion based on my own experience and as mentioned I had a large number of creditors and most of them are no longer chasing the debts. I certainly was not taken to court, although of course it was threatened on many occasions. You just need to be determined and stick to your guns. Magda

 

Hi Magda,

 

you say that ".....I had a large number of creditors and most of them are no longer chasing the debts. I certainly was not taken to court, although of course it was threatened on many occasions. You just need to be determined and stick to your guns...".....What are your long term plans? Do intend never to pay these creditors?? .........or are u making payments as and when u want to?:-?

Mint - Won! WCO not granted by court. :)

BlackHorse Loan- Won! WCO not granted. :)

 

Easy Money & More Than (Lloyds) - Won! Had been offered half of settlement prior but declined. :)

 

Capital One - Won! :)

 

BlackHorse PPI- WON £3,000, Claimed 4,500! :)

 

CitiFinancial - WON! :)

 

****************************************************************************

 

Monument - N1 Submitted Feb09

Cahoot - N1 submitted Feb09

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If I can butt in.

 

If the agreement is not enforceable, it is just that - unenforceable. The debt still exists.

 

A F&F settlemnt means that the debt is satisfied and gone - a much better outcome IMHO.

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If I can butt in.

 

If the agreement is not enforceable, it is just that - unenforceable. The debt still exists.

 

A F&F settlemnt means that the debt is satisfied and gone - a much better outcome IMHO.

 

My opinion is that if the creditor treats me resonably, then I will repay the loan regardless of the enforcability. If the creditor harrasses me I will fight tooth and nail...

 

Fortunately I do not owe anyone any money (apart from my rather large mortgage which now seems good value), though there are 3 creditors who I have never dealt with who seem to think I do!

If my comments have been useful please click the scales and let me know.

 

Me vs Rockwell/Tessara/RBofS: pending.

Me vs MBNA/1st Crud: Discontinued.

First Direct Overdraft: CCJ won.

IR: 2 CCJs 1 won.

Birmingham Midshires: pending

BT: pending

others to come....

 

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Hi Magda,

 

you say that ".....I had a large number of creditors and most of them are no longer chasing the debts. I certainly was not taken to court, although of course it was threatened on many occasions. You just need to be determined and stick to your guns...".....What are your long term plans? Do intend never to pay these creditors?? .........or are u making payments as and when u want to?:-?

 

No, I don't intend to pay them at all. Most of these creditors behaved appallingly when I was forced to deal with them and I am therefore quite happy to cease payments now. As for the agreement being unenforceable, but the debt still existing, I believe that Francis Bennion said something about the money being deemed a gift if the creditor could not be bothered to get the Agreement correct at the outset. This is just my opinion, and I appreciate other people think differently. However, it is important that people visiting the forum are aware of all their options. Magda

Edited by MAGDA
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My opinion is that if the creditor treats me resonably, then I will repay the loan regardless of the enforcability. If the creditor harrasses me I will fight tooth and nail...

 

Fortunately I do not owe anyone any money (apart from my rather large mortgage which now seems good value), though there are 3 creditors who I have never dealt with who seem to think I do!

 

Yes, exactly. I have one particular creditor who has always behaved extremely well and was willing to accept very small repayments at a very difficult time. I have not even bothered to CCA this creditor and I still make repayments. However, the vast majority have bullied and threatened and been unpleasant beyond belief, even though I was making repayments to them all. So, given this, I do not, if they have provided an unenforceable agreement, have any desire to make repayments at all. Magda

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If I can butt in.

 

If the agreement is not enforceable, it is just that - unenforceable. The debt still exists.

 

A F&F settlemnt means that the debt is satisfied and gone - a much better outcome IMHO.

 

Agreed!!

 

It means you're not living with the possibility for at least the next 6 years that the OC might find a CCA (unenforceable or not, defendable or not) & then pursue for the full amount plus the bonus of a better credit rating if you need it at any time.

 

Whilst they are unable to find the CCA you have the cards in your hand re. a minimal F&F; if they find the agreement you're back to square one.

 

You have to weigh up your own situation & which option you prefer.

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Agreed!!

 

It means you're not living with the possibility for at least the next 6 years that the OC might find a CCA (unenforceable or not, defendable or not) & then pursue for the full amount plus the bonus of a better credit rating if you need it at any time.

 

Whilst they are unable to find the CCA you have the cards in your hand re. a minimal F&F; if they find the agreement you're back to square one.

 

You have to weigh up your own situation & which option you prefer.

 

Except in the mean time they will most likely issue an invalid default notice and terminate the agreement. Then your liability is then limited to the amount on the DN. :-)

If my comments have been useful please click the scales and let me know.

 

Me vs Rockwell/Tessara/RBofS: pending.

Me vs MBNA/1st Crud: Discontinued.

First Direct Overdraft: CCJ won.

IR: 2 CCJs 1 won.

Birmingham Midshires: pending

BT: pending

others to come....

 

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hi

It is no good saying to creditors that you can stop paying because you have not provided a copy because it just isn't so. Ther is no legal argument to support it

 

If you use the argument that they wont take you to court. That argument applies in any case whether the agreement is properly executed or not you could just stop paying and take your chances.

 

There is no one more eager than me to take on creditors who grab your money and have no regard for your legal rights and protection, but if you write to them and use the act to sanction actions that it does not it just damages your creditability.

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hi

 

Because an agreement is unenforceable it does not mean that the agreement has not been made.

 

Enforceablilty of the agreement would only be an issue if the agreement was defaulted and one of the parties decided to enforce its terms regarding payment or compliance.

 

If the agreement is unenforceable because of a breach it does not mean that you can stop paying.

 

It means tht if you stop paying and the agreement is indeed unenforceable the creditor cannot recover the debt though the court.

 

But if the court does does decide to enforce (and in the case of a temporary failure to deliver a 77 request they will), then all cost interest and charges will be due for the period that payment was withheld.

It makes no difference that the creditor was not complying with the act in that period.

 

If you want to withold payment then you must be prepared to argue your case under section 127 and it is a good idea to be sure of your ground because if you loose and you have withheld payment,you will find that the whole agreement will be enforced that means everything due according to the agreement will be due.

 

Regards

Peter

 

Hello Peter, great post do you mind if I cut and paste it into another thread ?

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Hi

Thanks

Nota at all

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Agreed!!

 

It means you're not living with the possibility for at least the next 6 years that the OC might find a CCA (unenforceable or not, defendable or not) & then pursue for the full amount plus the bonus of a better credit rating if you need it at any time.

 

Whilst they are unable to find the CCA you have the cards in your hand re. a minimal F&F; if they find the agreement you're back to square one.

 

You have to weigh up your own situation & which option you prefer.

 

That's always presuming that you have enough money to be able to offer a F&F, which many of us do not.

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No, I don't intend to pay them at all. Most of these creditors behaved appallingly when I was forced to deal with them and I am therefore quite happy to cease payments now. As for the agreement being unenforceable, but the debt still existing, I believe that Francis Bennion said something about the money being deemed a gift if the creditor could not be bothered to get the Agreement correct at the outset. This is just my opinion, and I appreciate other people think differently. However, it is important that people visiting the forum are aware of all their options. Magda

 

Interesting.....I'm liking your stance!:-D

 

Did you CCA creditors who had a 2nd charge on your property? Does anyone know what happens with these?

 

Natwest has a final charging order on my property and have offered to accept £40 p/m to clear the £2000 outstanding; however, they have a suspended warrant of execution in the court. How does their CCA non-compliance affect this debt?

Edited by Missy06

Mint - Won! WCO not granted by court. :)

BlackHorse Loan- Won! WCO not granted. :)

 

Easy Money & More Than (Lloyds) - Won! Had been offered half of settlement prior but declined. :)

 

Capital One - Won! :)

 

BlackHorse PPI- WON £3,000, Claimed 4,500! :)

 

CitiFinancial - WON! :)

 

****************************************************************************

 

Monument - N1 Submitted Feb09

Cahoot - N1 submitted Feb09

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hey peter,did you manage to find me a template letter to send to barclaycard,i noticed you replied but said wrong address??

 

Hi

Yes sorry

I have not been active on her for the last year or so and the lind i had took me to an address that had been closed.

Hopefully someone else will help you or if not i will write you one.

PM Me iif you get no joy

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Would you reccomend that you pay them a nominal amount while the account is in dispute or pay nothing at all. Also what is classed as a reasonable offer for a final setttlement say on a £3,000 debt?

 

Hi Holley,

 

I'm not sure what the 'reasonable' offer would be exactly but I know that if u have an IVA you end up paying only about 25%. From my experience of full and final payments (not IVA), I've offered about 35% and it was accepted as I told them.....maybe it was becuase I told them I was going to start a 3 year degree and wouldn't get a penny off me during my course!

 

.....Can anyone else share their experiences?:)

Edited by Missy06

Mint - Won! WCO not granted by court. :)

BlackHorse Loan- Won! WCO not granted. :)

 

Easy Money & More Than (Lloyds) - Won! Had been offered half of settlement prior but declined. :)

 

Capital One - Won! :)

 

BlackHorse PPI- WON £3,000, Claimed 4,500! :)

 

CitiFinancial - WON! :)

 

****************************************************************************

 

Monument - N1 Submitted Feb09

Cahoot - N1 submitted Feb09

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Would you reccomend that you pay them a nominal amount while the account is in dispute or pay nothing at all. Also what is classed as a reasonable offer for a final setttlement say on a £3,000 debt?

 

If you don't pay, you are, in effect, inviting them to 'enforce' the debt by taking you to court; however if you carry on paying they may be quite happy with the knowledge that you will pay the debt in full at some date in the future & therefore not be so willing to discuss a realistic F&F. That's the dilemma. As peterbard has so eloquently pointed out above, you have no entitlement in law to stop payments.

 

Re. the amount of the settlement figure. IMO your offer should be based on:

1. is it a DCA? If so they have prob. bought the debt for between 10 & 20% of its value so anything they get over this sum is profit for them.

2. have they supplied an enforceable agreement or are they likely to be able to? If they have an unenforceable agreement (or are unlikely to be able to find one), it should strengthen you hand in negociation.

 

Suggest you start your offer lowish - they can always say no & then you can raise the game if necessary.

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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