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Thanks for that, As Moorcroft have thrown a 'NOTICE OF INTENDED LITIGATION' at me can I throw a CPR request at them to get this information (saves £10.00). or am I going to have to stump up the dosh and send direct to ARGOS?

 

Sharpman.

if they are relying upon this letter as a letter before claim then you should refer them to the CPR practice direction preaction protocols which set out what a LBC should contain and how you should reply:D

 

i would have a read of them, especially CPR PD PAP 4.3;)

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Ok, i've gone for the full S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) route. See what that throws up. Can they quote

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices

and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

as an excuse for no providing, or can I insist they supply if they have it.

 

Sharpman

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Under an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) they have to produce everything they have on you, with certain exceptions that are never going to apply to copy agreements.

 

If they don't supply something when you've done an SAR and it later turns up (e.g. a copy agreement) then they will be in serious trouble with the information commissioner and possibly the courts if they only produce it once proceedings have been issued.

RMW

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Hi All

 

Interesting debate as to whether or not a creditor ever has to actually produce an agreement to enforce is ongoing on the following thread.....................http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/95027-cabot-county-court-claim-27.html#post1705108

 

I have read the other thread and now I am totally boggled. I had understood so far that if the creditor could not produce the original agreement it could not be enforced. Is this now not considered the case or I have I missed something.

 

Would it be a good idea where we don't have copies of our agreements to SAR any companies we have dealings with just so we can be prepared for any issues that might arise?

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I would write to Moorecroft asking them for the deed of assignment to prove their ownership of the debt and also send them a sec 78 request. Or, instead of sending an official sec 78 request, I normally jsut write to them asking if they have an agreement that conforms to the CCA and if they dont reply with a copy of it within 14 days, Ill send an offical request.

 

Normally, they just write back saying they are no longer pursuing the debt and send it back......you normally end up with another letter from a debt collector/solicitor though because they jsut send the debt to someone else.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Thanks un1boy.

 

Could you point me in the correct direction of where i can find the S78 request template letter?

 

Also.. I am thinking of sending a SAR to Scotcall to find out exactly why they have stopped collecting.. and if they or Lloyds have passed the Debt onto Moorcroft??

 

CONFUSED!!!!!

 

The debt is was older than 6 years, Lloyds no longer shows on my credit file that i have received a copy of... and if Scotcall do not have a copy of the Credit Agreement either what is the position there, as they would have been collecting somehting that the lender has oficially cleared, and they lawfully dont actually have the right to collect upon??

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Ok, i've gone for the full S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) route. See what that throws up. Can they quote

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices

and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

 

as an excuse for no providing, or can I insist they supply if they have it.

 

Sharpman

 

 

I think they're just trying to confuse you by quoting these regs. Here is Reg 3:

 

'General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

 

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.'

You will note 3 (1) - shall be a true copy thereof

 

The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it.

 

You will also note 3(1) 'delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act'. If you were to apply under SARs they have to supply a copy of the original IF they hold it on your file & you specifically request it. They cannot send a reconstructed 'true' copy as SARs provision is part of the DPA not the CCA1974 & the above Reg. applies to CCA.

 

Least, that's how I understand it. Clear as mud? :roll:

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Thanks Magda for the letter.

 

Wealthy

 

Hi Wealthy,

The letter idea posted for you earlier in this thread is fine except the part about committing an offence under S77-79, this was repealed by Regulation 30, The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, which came into effect sometime in may 08.

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness. For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people. For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. For poise, walk with the knowledge that you never walk alone. People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed, and redeemed; never throw out anyone. Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms. As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands; one for helping yourself, and the other for helping others. :)

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Hi Wealthy,

The letter idea posted for you earlier in this thread is fine except the part about committing an offence under S77-79, this was repealed by Regulation 30, The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, which came into effect sometime in may 08.

 

Hi Questioning - isn't it the case that it is an "offence", but after 12 (+2) days, so the creditor now does not have a further month in which to comply?

Edited by MAGDA
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I think they're just trying to confuse you by quoting these regs. Here is Reg 3:

 

'General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

 

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.'

You will note 3 (1) - shall be a true copy thereof

 

The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it.

 

You will also note 3(1) 'delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act'. If you were to apply under SARs they have to supply a copy of the original IF they hold it on your file & you specifically request it. They cannot send a reconstructed 'true' copy as SARs provision is part of the Data Protection Act not the CCA1974 & the above Reg. applies to CCA.

 

Least, that's how I understand it. Clear as mud? :roll:

 

You would think. I guess the only way forward is to S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them.

I'll see what jargon she comes back with now. But, I'm hoping that it won't be the same person as it's been sent to the data controller. Unless she works in the same department. Wouldn't surprise me. :)

 

Sharpman

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Hi, i've been reading these threads and have just got confused, until recently i never missed a payment, then unfortunately i got ill and lost my job, i have today written to my cc providers requesting a copy of my agreement and if they provide the agreements and they are enforcable can i still claim back any interest payments under s85 of the act as everytime i was issued with a new card i never received a copy of my agreement with it, any help would be gratefully appreciated, thank you.

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Hi Questioning - isn't it the case that it is an "offence", but after 12 (+2) days, so the creditor now does not have a further month in which to comply?

 

Yes, So the one month for criminal offence no longer applies, I could of sworn that letter said "criminal offence", (seeing things again) but anyway I thought you just left out the 30 day part, and just allow the 12+ 2 working days for compliance.

A good thread on all of this is here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/147392-cca-dcas-unfair-commercial.html

Edited by questioning
added text to try & make sense

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness. For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people. For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry. For poise, walk with the knowledge that you never walk alone. People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed, and redeemed; never throw out anyone. Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms. As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands; one for helping yourself, and the other for helping others. :)

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Thanks un1boy.

 

Could you point me in the correct direction of where i can find the S78 request template letter?

 

Also.. I am thinking of sending a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Scotcall to find out exactly why they have stopped collecting.. and if they or Lloyds have passed the Debt onto Moorcroft??

 

CONFUSED!!!!!

 

The debt is was older than 6 years, Lloyds no longer shows on my credit file that i have received a copy of... and if Scotcall do not have a copy of the Credit Agreement either what is the position there, as they would have been collecting somehting that the lender has oficially cleared, and they lawfully dont actually have the right to collect upon??

 

I wouldn't write to them - just leave it now, why poke the fire? If they aren't collecting anymore then no worries. :)

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I would forward a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for a copy of the original agreement. The regs have no effect under a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

 

Argos have not complied with your request - the creditor and debtors name and address MUST be included for compliance. I have had this confirmed by the OFT who have taken legal guidance on this.

 

I would make a complaint to Mr Henry Aitchison (enforcement officer at the OFT) and mention my name.

 

I have asked the OFT to clarify their position on this by email or letter but they have refused. However, the OFT have come clean on this to two media sources.

 

PW

 

Have you anything from oft on this that other people could use ? Regards Gaz

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I would forward a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for a copy of the original agreement. The regs have no effect under a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

 

Argos have not complied with your request - the creditor and debtors name and address MUST be included for compliance. I have had this confirmed by the OFT who have taken legal guidance on this.

 

I would make a complaint to Mr Henry Aitchison (enforcement officer at the OFT) and mention my name.

 

I have asked the OFT to clarify their position on this by email or letter but they have refused. However, the OFT have come clean on this to two media sources.

 

PW

 

Hi, Just received an email response from the OFT in reply to a complaint I recently made. It seems to contradict the above:

 

"A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

If the name and address can be excluded, how can the debtor possibly have a clue whether it is their agreement or not?

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I need to nail one of favourite DC in Court soon but I could do with more info on Current Accounts Overdrafts.

 

Ive heard they need to produce something IE. a letter stating the interest etc. Where does this info come from??

 

Also should there be a signed agrement between the creditor and debitor on currnent accounts??

 

Surely if there is credit going to be avaialbe it should be the same as a CC agreement?

 

HAK

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Hi, Just received an email response from the OFT in reply to a complaint I recently made. It seems to contradict the above:

 

"A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

If the name and address can be excluded, how can the debtor possibly have a clue whether it is their agreement or not?

 

TS obviously haven't read or choose to ignore the regs.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Hi, Just received an email response from the OFT in reply to a complaint I recently made. It seems to contradict the above:

 

"A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

If the name and address can be excluded, how can the debtor possibly have a clue whether it is their agreement or not?

 

 

MAGDA

 

T/S are the biggest waste of space going.

All they are intrested are easy pickings like selling a lottery ticket to a 15 year old.

 

They wind me up:mad:

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"A ‘true copy’ .... The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

I

 

Oh yes it does Magda!

 

TS are either being thick, ignorant or deliberately misconstruing the Regs. see the full text in my post above but think this is the excerpt you will need to quote at them

 

'General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and ...'

 

The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it.

 

Do you know them well at TS now magda? Bet they wait with bated breath for your daily missive....:rolleyes::)

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Hi

 

I'm currently trying to sort out CCA's with MBNA and HBOS (via Blair Oliver Scott). I've had the agreements back, HBOS is pretty clearly useless, but I'm not sure about MBNA as the prescribed terms seem to be there, but the actual terms were just attached, and were several years newer than the original account.

 

If anyone could have a look at the threads and give me a nudge with how to proceed I'd really appreciate it! I've had a bit of help going, particularly with my MBNA thread, but it's all a bit quiet at the moment and I need to get letters out and things moving in general.

 

The threads are here if anyone has time to look:)

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/156429-lexis200-hbos-blair-oliver.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/156409-lexis200-mbna-just-starting.html

 

Thanks!!

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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TS obviously haven't read or choose to ignore the regs.

 

MAGDA

 

T/S are the biggest waste of space going.

All they are intrested are easy pickings like selling a lottery ticket to a 15 year old.

 

They wind me up:mad:

 

Oh yes it does Magda!

 

TS are either being thick, ignorant or deliberately misconstruing the Regs. see the full text in my post above but think this is the excerpt you will need to quote at them

 

'General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and ...'

 

 

The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it.

 

Do you know them well at TS now magda? Bet they wait with bated breath for your daily missive....:rolleyes::)

 

Hi all, sorry, on my first post I inadvertently typed in TS (must have their name on the brain for some reason!) and meant to type in OFT, which I did on the second one. I didn't think the first post had gone on, but it appears it did (now deleted it). So infact, the extract from the email I quoted came from the OFT direct, yesterday.

 

Oh and yes, FG, TS do know me quite well now and let's just say I don't think they exactly look forward to my next emailicon10.gif

 

Magda

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Just rang OFT and they are going to pass my comments on to the manager there for a response. I explained that the statement OFT made was incorrect and explained why, and said I will expect a conlusive answer on this as soon as possible. So, be interesting to see what they come back with. It is quite worrying to think that OFT don't actually appear to know what they are talking about.

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