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I have a similar situation. I know for a fact that I have not signed an agreement. I signed, to all intents and purposes, a blank sheet of paper. It was, I suppose, a very, very faint print.

 

Certainly my copy was just a blank sheet of paper. The only writing on it, my signature.

 

When I recently CCA'd the creditor I was sent a print out (not a facsimile) including all the terms and conditions and signatures omitted.

 

Is this fraud?

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Hello All!

 

What is the position when an initial pre-Contractual Consumer Credit Agreement (CCA) arrives that is already Signed by the Creditor/Lender?

 

I feel that would make the Agreement Void under s59:

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 59

 

(1) An agreement is void if, and to the extent that, it purports to bind a person to enter as debtor or hirer into a prospective regulated agreement.

 

(2) Regulations may exclude from the operation of subsection (1) agreements such as are described in the regulations.

 

If I then Signed such an Agreement and sent it back, the Loan then went ahead, any Copy of that Agreement would clearly show that my Signature post-Dates that of the Creditor/Lender. In turn, that theirs pre-Dates mine. So, would s59 Void such an otherwise "executed" Agreement?

 

Or, rather, what "agreements such as are described in the regulations" would not then be covered by s59?

 

I feel that an Agreement should not arrive already Signed by a Lender, as then it is pre-executed as far as their Signature is concerned. When I send that back, what is left for them to Authorise? The moment I sign, I am bound to it, so would s59 apply here?

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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By signing the agreement the borrower agrees to be bound by the terms and conditions of the contract, if it's not signed by the borrower there is no consent.

 

A court will more than likely enforce an agreement even if the creditors sig is missing because the borrower hasn't been prejudiced.

 

PW

 

Thanks. So, making laws that we have to abide to are a complete waste of time ?

Odio los bancos con una venganza

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I have received copies of my agreement under the consumer credit act, unfortunately they are substandard copies,i can not read them due to being in small print. i would post them on here but for some reason it will not allow me to do so. i woul dlike to know is there anything i can do.:mad:

 

i have added attachments but unsure if they will attach to this post.

cabot.doc

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andrewman, the file shows up ok. It says application form !. I think pt2537 has had a run in with Littlewoods so perhaps he can advise you :)

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I have received copies of my agreement under the consumer credit act, unfortunately they are substandard copies,i can not read them due to being in small print. i would post them on here but for some reason it will not allow me to do so. i woul dlike to know is there anything i can do.:mad:

 

i have added attachments but unsure if they will attach to this post.

 

Hi

 

That agreement sucks !!!!!!

 

its not enforceable in the slightest, and further more to add to their woes its illegible so not compliant with the copy document regulations

 

To be totally honest , you are best to start your own thread on this, i will happily help you through this as i have had great success with my battle with littlewoods

 

if you start your own thread ,let me know and i will post on there

 

regards

paul

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thanks for the advice much appreciated. I do not know how to start new threads, replying is easy. can you help please. thanks.:confused:

 

Here you go andrewman.. you should find the answer in the link below xx

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

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4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

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gentlemen and ladies,

can some one please answer one question, is the rules the same for a person who trades under his own name and has a cca contract which very clearly states ' customer account application form '

which is only a photo copy and does not match the form when laid out.

It also states a 'Chip and pin card' I never had a chip and pin card .

If thing I can do?????

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Heres a thought that some of you might like to ponder

 

All the LOA I have received have been sent by the DCA not the OC....even those on the OC headed paper have come from the DCA....I just wondered how this might stack up legally and whether the OC has a legal right to notify....

 

If this is the process then any SAR to the OC would show that this was never sent and may make a resonable defence say should the DCA produce a legal CCA....

 

Any thoughts?

Live Life-Debt Free

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Hi folks,

 

I've added my two pennethy to this thread regards monument response to a S78, please take a look and add as required:

 

HERE

omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium

 

 

Please note: I am not a member of the legal profession, all advice given is purely my opinion, if in doubt consult a professional

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Hi folks,

 

I've added my two pennethy to this thread regards monument response to a S78, please take a look and add as required:

 

HERE

 

That post got me thinking :)

 

S.77 for example says (as we all know)

77 Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for fixed-sum credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor

showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor;

(b) the total sum which has become payable under the agreement by the debtor but remains unpaid, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date when each became due; and

© the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor, and the various amounts comprised in that total sum, with the date, or mode of determining the date, when each becomes due.

Now a 'copy' is quite clearly defined in S. 180 of the Act para 2 of s.180 states

(2) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document— and references in this Act to copies shall be construed accordingly.

 

(a) is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and

conforms to the prescribed requirements;

(b) is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in

condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations;

IMHO, what that says is that any copy must be in the prescribed form and contain all the prescribed terms otherwise the copy is deemed not to have been sent.

 

So, with S.77 para 4 stating

 

(4) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

Surely this precludes any creditor applying for enforcement until they comply with a S.77/78/79 request .....

 

Or am I missing something .....

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just started a new thread entitled littlewoods/cabot and attached copy of so call credit agreement. anyone who wants to have a look and comment or advice are welcome to do so. cheers:cool:

 

 

This is andrewman's link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/138070-littlewoods-cabot.html

  • Haha 1

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Thanks citizenB your help is much appreciated. cheers8-)

 

Thank you , that was kind of you to tip my scales. {{}}:)

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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That post got me thinking :)

 

S.77 for example says (as we all know)

Now a 'copy' is quite clearly defined in S. 180 of the Act para 2 of s.180 states

IMHO, what that says is that any copy must be in the prescribed form and contain all the prescribed terms otherwise the copy is deemed not to have been sent.

 

So, with S.77 para 4 stating

 

Surely this precludes any creditor applying for enforcement until they comply with a S.77/78/79 request .....

 

Or am I missing something .....

 

No, that's spot on, IMHO anyway...

Always happy to help where I can!

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Surely this precludes any creditor applying for enforcement until they comply with a S.77/78/79 request .....

yes it is what it says whilst in default they are compelled to act within the agreement terms to comply by dealing with you direct and not passing off data to other parties,this usually the case when you do contact a third party for a sar request or CCA they usually pass the debt back to the OC.... IMO

patrickq1

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by patrickq1 are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional

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Sent off my £1 postal order to Monument for a copy of the CCA and received the following reply>>>>

 

"The agreement we have enclosed in this letter is a copy of your credit agreement which we are providing to you in accordance with our obligations under the requirements of section 78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (as ammended) (the CCA). Section 78(1) requires that we provide you with a copy of your executed agreement within 12 days of receiving your request for such a copy and upon the payment of £1.00"

 

"It is perhaps worth us explaining a little about the "copy of the executed agreement" section 78(1) requires us to provide to you. "Copy" for the purpose of the CCA does not refer to an exact copy of the agreement you signed. We are therefore not required by the CCA to provide you with a photocopy of the agreement showing your signature. Section 78 requires us to provide you with a copy of the agreement that looks like the one you signed but which has been updated to contain the terms and conditions which currently apply to your agreement (rather than those which applied at the time you signed the agreement) Importantly, the copy is not required to include your name or signature".

 

"We hope that you are now satisfied with the documentation we have provided and that you will now recommence payments on your account"

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Naomi Wort.

 

All that monument have sent along with the letter is Monument Visa Conditions and a copy of the Monument Conditions. Can anyone comment on the above reply from Monument and advise me on how i should reply to Monument?????

 

I have attatched what they have sent me.

Monument Visa Conditions0001.pdf

Monument 20001.pdf

Monument 30001.pdf

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I still cant get my head round this..... IF they are so sure of their position and have a copy of the original signed document, what, exactly is their problem in sending a copy to the debtor on request ?. Alternatively,

 

If they are so sure that the document IS compliant.. why do they not just haul us into court and settle it there and then. Instead they devastate the rain forest with their letter writing then sell the account on ?. Surely that in itself is dubious if in their heart of hearts they know the debt is unenforceable. Or am I just being naive ?

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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No, that's spot on, IMHO anyway...

 

so.......

 

what exactly does 'prescribed form' actually mean?

If you find my advice helpful - please click on my scales

<<<<<< - they're over there!

Well, it's a funny black star now ...

The small print - any advice I give is freely given on the understanding that I am a layman and am not legally qualified in anyway.

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That post got me thinking :)

 

 

IMHO, what that says is that any copy must be in the prescribed form and contain all the prescribed terms otherwise the copy is deemed not to have been sent.

 

So, with S.77 para 4 stating

 

Surely this precludes any creditor applying for enforcement until they comply with a S.77/78/79 request .....

 

Or am I missing something .....

 

Regulations stipulate what is required to be contained in copy documents.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Cap1 & CCA return
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