Cap1 & CCA return

[veilside01702]

Just to clarify....

If EGG have told Experian and Equifax that a loan is settled is that proof I can use in court?

Can they reinstate the loan with the CRA's??

And am I correct in saying that EGG cannot tell the CRA's that one agreement covers 3 seperate loans??

If they list 3 loans with the CRA's, then they should have 3 seperate agreements, one for each??

They just keep telling me that the one agreement is for all 3, and that they changed the repayment amounts and term of the loan to help me pay....

They knocked off £4 a month, but went from 52 months to 85 months...

any idea's??

Russ

[ian1969uk]

or must they produce a signed copy if it goes to court? thanks in advance.....

 

CCA Section 127:

 

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

 

Meaning they have to produce a signed agreement to get a court to enforce. IMO the only reason they would be refusing to send you a signed copy is because they don't have one.

[Perseus]

Meaning they have to produce a signed agreement to get a court to enforce. IMO the only reason they would be refusing to send you a signed copy is because they don't have one.

 

Agreed - they would have to produce the signed agreement - but - ever the pessimist it is just possible that one ccp will drag this into court just to let a consumer call their bluff, and win a case where they have got one. I know they will possibly get wrapped knuckles for not producing, but once produced, it is obviosuly then enforceable.

Adds to the scare factor for other consumers then!

Sorry....

[zubo]

Agreed - they would have to produce the signed agreement - but - ever the pessimist it is just possible that one ccp will drag this into court just to let a consumer call their bluff, and win a case where they have got one. I know they will possibly get wrapped knuckles for not producing, but once produced, it is obviosuly then enforceable.

Adds to the scare factor for other consumers then!

Sorry....

 

Cristal,

 

Which is why.... you use #30 in the Workshop, cpr 4.6 requires them to provide evidence before court.

 

They can of course ignore you but it all adds weight to your case.

 

Zx

[paulwlton]

A letter from the OFT outlining sec77-79.

 

Dear Mr Paine

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (‘the Act')

Our Ref: Epic/Enq/E/1760

 

Thank you for your email received on 31 March about your enquiry into the Consumer Credit Act Sect 77 & 78.I apologise for the delayed response.

 

The general effects of sections 77-79 requires the creditor/owner (in the case of a hire agreement) under an agreement for (fixed-sum credit, running account credit and hire agreement) to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed agreement and a statement of account on request.

 

If a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days (not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all. This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month (for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence. We understand your concerns in this matter but please do remember however that once the creditor/owner complies with the request albeit out of time, he may once again enforce the agreement.

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

 

We note your concerns that in the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed.

 

If you would like to make a formal complaint. Please fill in the attached complaint form.

 

Thank you again for writing to us.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Olu Ademolu

Markets and Projects

Enquires and Preliminary Investigations Centre

[ADDABET]

''When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.'

 

Once again for my peace of mind,is that signed by the Creditor or the Debtor ?

[ian1969uk]

''When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.'

 

 

Once again for my peace of mind,is that signed by the Creditor or the Debtor ?

 

The debtor.

[ADDABET]

So the intial 'true copy' they sent me under my original CCA request doesn't need my signature or my name and address but in order for them to enforce the debt in court they need to have a signed (by me) copy of the original agreement, being they firstly sent me a signed application form then a 'conjectured reconconstruction' id say they haven't got that said 'signed copy of the original agreement'...........

[paulwlton]

I am sat here in disbelief. I have an hearing on the 10th of May in Manchester to set-aside a court order due to unlawfull charges, non compliance of a CCA 77 request, incorrectly stating a statement of account. The judgement creditor has ceased collection proceedings until they comply.

 

This morning i have received a fraudelent Consumer Credit agreement dates have been altered the amounts are incorrect no signatures, my loan was defaulted in June 1998 the agreement i received today is dated August 98 with payments of £787 per month lol.

 

I can prove in court the fraud has i saved a copy of the original agreement the particulars of claim, the court order aswell as bank statements.

 

Can't wait for the 10th.

 

Paul

[ADDABET]

Complete amateurs....................:o

[dpick]

God the term "Brain to let" does seem to spring to mind

 

go get em dpick:D

[Cristal]

Paul, Ian, Zubo and Perseus, thank you for your invaluable advice...will let keep you posted!!

 

CX

[Guest Battleaxe]

Another Frankenstein Agreement. Post NO 6505 They are getting desperate. This needs exposing in the media. I hope BankFodder is reading this. Could the MODS please draw this to Bankfodders attention, he needs this information as a priority.

[ADDABET]

I second post 6508...................

[ncf355]

I am sat here in disbelief. I have an hearing on the 10th of May in Manchester to set-aside a court order due to unlawfull charges, non compliance of a CCA 77 request, incorrectly stating a statement of account. The judgement creditor has ceased collection proceedings until they comply.

 

This morning i have received a fraudelent Consumer Credit agreement dates have been altered the amounts are incorrect no signatures, my loan was defaulted in June 1998 the agreement i received today is dated August 98 with payments of £787 per month lol.

 

I can prove in court the fraud has i saved a copy of the original agreement the particulars of claim, the court order aswell as bank statements.

 

Can't wait for the 10th.

 

Paul

 

Disbelief?

 

come on Paul, you've been around CAG long enough ;-)

 

Doesnt surprise me in the least and I'd report that one to the OFT and the police straight away rather than waiting for the court - Fraud being a criminal act and all that

 

All my CCP's are REALLY p'ing me off now and I am ready for Battle Royale with all of them

 

[paulwlton]

Disbelief?

 

come on Paul, you've been around CAG long enough ;-)

 

Doesnt surprise me in the least and I'd report that one to the OFT and the police straight away rather than waiting for the court - Fraud being a criminal act and all that

 

All my CCP's are REALLY p'ing me off now and I am ready for Battle Royale with all of them

 

 

I guess your right, but this aint no back street lender he's a biggy.

 

Sorry i was mistaken in my earlier post it's 2 fraudelent agreements not one.

 

Paul

[maybelline]

fed up now, HFC sent a copy agreement which is not properly executed then several letters with different a/c nos for what i believe is the same debt, except that is settled and appears so on credit file. its doing my head in keep writing and sending cca requests, dpa request and now they have passed the mystery nos to another debt collection agency, so that three different agencies now all chasing something noone has any evidence of?? im abit lost with it all now:(

[jalex_uk]

Have there been any more cases or settlements won under Section 85? I haven't heard any more about it in awhile.

[un1boy]

Yes, the original paperwork would have to be provided to show liability,

 

Even for single accounts?

[ian1969uk]

Following my complaint to Consumer Direct regarding MBNA, I had a call to arrange a meeting with Consumer Advice this Friday. Then today I received a letter from Trading Standards, asking me to send them copies of the correspondence between me and MBNA. I phoned them and asked if I still needed to attend on Friday. Interestingly she said that the appointment on Friday was for advice on where I stood as a consumer, Trading Standards were investigating the criminal matters within the case (her words, not mine).

 

I told her what MBNA had sent me as an agreement and she said that an application form wasn't an agreement and so they were still in default. She also confirmed that her view was that when they had defaulted, they were not allowed to add interest or charges to the account.

 

I've sent all of the letters to her and she said she will be back in touch. I have cancelled Friday's meeting as I don't feel I need the consumer advice, I just want TS to investigate MBNA.

[Cornucopia]

Following my complaint to Consumer Direct regarding MBNA, I had a call to arrange a meeting with Consumer Advice this Friday. Then today I received a letter from Trading Standards, asking me to send them copies of the correspondence between me and MBNA. I phoned them and asked if I still needed to attend on Friday. Interestingly she said that the appointment on Friday was for advice on where I stood as a consumer, Trading Standards were investigating the criminal matters within the case (her words, not mine).

 

I told her what MBNA had sent me as an agreement and she said that an application form wasn't an agreement and so they were still in default. She also confirmed that her view was that when they had defaulted, they were not allowed to add interest or charges to the account.

 

I've sent all of the letters to her and she said she will be back in touch. I have cancelled Friday's meeting as I don't feel I need the consumer advice, I just want TS to investigate MBNA.

 

Hi Ian, my stuff all went to TS, OFT and the FSO today, will keep you posted with the response as we are in much the same boat.

 

I have also been advised to contact the Police. I think enough is enough with this bunch of crooks, the stuff I am collecting is shocking and I wonder how much clout we'd have if we all acted as witnesses for eachother. Plenty I would have thought!

 

Regards,

 

Corn

[davefirewalker]

Nice one Ian....give them hell for me

 

Dave

 

hi corn.......wave

[jalex_uk]

I'm just checking an agreement I have with MFI, which is administered by Lloyds (Black Horse Finance), and nowhere on the credit agreement is there a notice giving the "cancelation rights" or "cooling off" period I thought were required under the CCA 1974. Does that make it unenforceable?

It was signed in-store, with the salesman signing on behalf of Black Horse Ltd, and I took a copy of the agreement home with me that day (although the credit wasn't approved until a week later), so I wondered if that notice wasn't required when the application was made in person rather than by post. Any comments?

[davefirewalker]

Below is an excerpt from the oft booklet non cancellable agreements.

 

it seems as though yours is NON cancellable because you signed on trade premises

 

rgds

 

dave

 

A regulated agreement can be either cancellable or non-cancellable. Both types are subject to rules as to content, form and copies. Cancellable agreements are those where the trader (who, in this case, may be the creditor, the credit broker or the supplier) discusses the credit arrangements (and/or goods) in the customer’s presence and the customer signs the agreement off trade premises (see the booklet Cancellable agreements). If these conditions are not met, the agreement is non-cancellable.

[Cornucopia]

Nice one Ian....give them hell for me

 

Dave

 

hi corn.......wave

 

Hi Dave! I think we should start a "give em' hell" thread. This really has got to stop, it is absolutely shocking and outrageous. Hopefully the TS will sit up given the amount of complaints about this bunch, I am going to be controversial and post a comment I got, in writing, from MBNA in response to my accusations of conjecture :

 

"the deletions we made served merely to convert the credit card mailer to a copy of the consumer credit agreement".

 

Now correct me if I am wrong, but since when was converting documents to suit your own ends legal?

 

I am interesting in hearing from anybody, preferably via PM, who has similar correspondence/agreements etc. Strength in numbers and all that!

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)