Cap1 & CCA return

[Missy06]

Hi everyone!

 

This might sound like a bit of a silly question but are the CCA Agreements being discussed on this thread only applicable to CREDIT CARDS? How about bank accounts?!? Can we only try to get monies back through the Hardship Waiver route?!?

 

Any clarification will be much appreciated:)

[car2403]

Bank accounts aren't regulated by the CCA - they are regulated by the FSA.

 

Overdraft agreements are regulated by the CCA, however - despite the Banks' efforts to blind consumers with legal mumbo-jumbo to hide the facts - so are challengable on the same grounds as any CCA. The only difference will be that Overdrafts are exempt from the Agreement regulations due to a s.74 CCA 1974 Determination issued by the OFT - to benefit from the Determination, however, the Bank has to comply with it's terms, meaning they have to send you details of the interest rate and charges applicable when you apply for the Overdraft, or shortly afterwards, plus how they will terminate the agreement. If they don't comply with the Determination, the debt will be unenforceable in Court. This is a little gem that they don't want you to know, but it does work, believe me;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/110184-car2403-barclays-bank-default.html

[ncf355]

Hi all,

 

can someone provide me with a link that details the legal requirements for service of documents?

 

That is, how many days after posting is a document deemed legally served?

[foolishgirl]

This thread & its info. was drawn to my attention by supasnooper this week, ncf. You may find it useful too

 

I think it was originally a post by x20 incorporated into a BRW Default Notice post. The relevant part is Council Tax Manual - Section 3 - Appendix 3.6 - Service of documents by post -

 

Default Notice period - 7 CLEAR days ?

[ncf355]

Mucho gracias!

 

[ncf355]

Hmm

 

CPR itself (Practice directions) seems to make no reference to 2nd class post (in particular the "it will be assumed second class mail was used" (unless proved to contrary)

 

 

Where did they get that PD bit for the council tax manual?

[MarkieMark]

HSBC wrote to me stating they do not need to supply copy of the agreement and refered me to the act below:-

 

Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)/3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy--

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

[(d) in the case of any copy of an executed agreement given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act for fixed-sum credit, or under section 78(1) for running-account credit, under which a person takes any articles in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.]

NOTES

Initial Commencement

Specified date

Specified date: 19 May 1985: see reg 1(1).

Amendment

Para (2): sub-para (d) substituted by SI 1984/1108, reg 2(a).

 

I did not want a copy of my signature copy but all the prescribed terms of the loan....

 

The above section uses the word MAY but makes no reference to all the prescribed terms of the loan... ie APR, No. of Payments, Time of Payments, etc etc

 

It appears that all banks are using this part of the act to try and get round the copy of executed agreement in accordance with section 77/78.

 

WELL THEY ARE WRONG... they must provide a copy of agreement with all the prescribed terms... dont let them fool you... I have read people have made applications under the data protection act, well you dont really need to do that...

 

I am really annoyed with the way Banks carry on.... increasing the APR from 9.9% to 20.9% is a joke..... extortionate credit bargain or what?

[MarkieMark]

Wonder when they are going to reduce APRs? as per the attached news paper article.... 2 weeks are long gone months ago..???

[sanrhythm]

HERE IS WHAT OFT SAYS

------------------------------------------------------------------------

We note that your letter raises concern in regard to executed credit agreement copies.

 

As you may know, s63 of the Act covers how and when lenders must provide consumers with a first (and where appropriate second) copy of a regulated agreement. It is clearly in the lender’s best interests to retain details of the original agreement and any subsequent variations or changes made to it, particularly as consumers can request a subsequent ‘true’ copy of most types of agreement under ss77 and 78 of the CCA (and on payment of the appropriate fee). There are rules about what is likely to constitute a ‘true copy’ under these sections of the Act. Further, if a consumer does make a valid request for a copy of their agreement under these provisions and the lender does not comply with the request the agreement may not be enforceable in the Courts, subject to any other mitigating factors.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

Edited February 3, 2009 by sanrhythm
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[cab1ne]

Hi all

new to this but need help regarding cca 1974-default-termination and "lombard"

[ncf355]

Hi all

new to this but need help regarding cca 1974-default-termination and "lombard"

 

Hi,

 

its best if you create a seperate thread regarding your issues, and if possible scan any documents (remving your personal details, agreement number, barcodes, etc) and place them for us to view and attempt to advise

 

I believe the best forum for Lombard would be in "other institutions", found HERE

 

(just click on "new thread" and create the title and content of your thread)

 

 

Then once posted, copy the thread URL and post it back on here so we can visit it

 

[cab1ne]

thankyou ncf355

will do

fingers crossed

[cab1ne]

Hi,

 

its best if you create a seperate thread regarding your issues, and if possible scan any documents (remving your personal details, agreement number, barcodes, etc) and place them for us to view and attempt to advise

 

I believe the best forum for Lombard would be in "other institutions", found HERE

 

(just click on "new thread" and create the title and content of your thread)

 

 

Then once posted, copy the thread URL and post it back on here so we can visit it

 

can't do attachments

so it looks like a good old chit chat

been reading this forum for about 3 weeks

 

top stuff

[MarkieMark]

Thanks sanrhythm for clarifying the matter

[sanrhythm]

hi i created my own thread as been told

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/alliance-leicester/180805-mbna-replied-sign-copy.html

 

this lead to too many threads and no one answer or reply I don’t think it is help full I notice many ask to create their own even the thread is very relevant.

[what_todo]

there is far to much to read so i would like to ask a qus.

if you have a c.card and you canceled it as you lost it a got a new one do you need to sign a new c.card Agreement?

what happend if you dident sign a new c.card Agreement in my case?

[cab1ne]

here is my thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/181761-lombard-agreement-help.html#post1961119

[Missy06]

Bank accounts aren't regulated by the CCA - they are regulated by the FSA.

 

Overdraft agreements are regulated by the CCA, however - despite the Banks' efforts to blind consumers with legal mumbo-jumbo to hide the facts - so are challengable on the same grounds as any CCA. The only difference will be that Overdrafts are exempt from the Agreement regulations due to a s.74 CCA 1974 Determination issued by the OFT - to benefit from the Determination, however, the Bank has to comply with it's terms, meaning they have to send you details of the interest rate and charges applicable when you apply for the Overdraft, or shortly afterwards, plus how they will terminate the agreement. If they don't comply with the Determination, the debt will be unenforceable in Court. This is a little gem that they don't want you to know, but it does work, believe me;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/110184-car2403-barclays-bank-default.html

 

Car2403, thanks for that. Much appreciated!

[Muffintop]

Car to clarify, you can ask for a cca in relation to a bank overdraft? they should send you out certain information prior to agreeing an overdraft limit but you dont have to sign anything usually, how would they proove or you disprove this information was sent out?? a sar?

[mikedesign]

Does anyone know if an agreement can be faxed i just received a supposed fax outlining an application for credit agreement which i never ever received an agreement for.

 

On top of that the creditor is dell financial services

 

then it says cit group

 

then tyco capital all on different pieces of paper

Edited February 5, 2009 by mikedesign
missed out the creditors

[foolishgirl]

Could you post the papers up mikedesign (minus personal details of course) so CAGers could be more specific on the advice?

[mikedesign]

just scanning them now foolishgirl

 

its ok i figured it out

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2009 by mikedesign
figured out adding photobucket images

[bathgatebuyer]

Hi - just an update on the FOS response to my CCA case:

 

They say the appropriate forum for me to do that would be the courts. Not suprised at all by this as they routinely turn around with CCA matters and say, "Not our area".

 

They acknowledge that Sainsburys didn't even send me terms and conditions for nearly 10 months.

 

They say that 'enorceable' realtes to 'enforceable in a court of law' and that the 'normal administrative operations of the account such as charging interest, or seeking repayment is not disputed'.

 

They also say that the fact that I have been continuing to make payments to the account suggest that there is no 'dispute' in the OFT sense and that I am not disputing any debt to Sainsburys (Rather than a recognition that I need a good credit record to work and that forcing the situation into a default to get taken to court to resolve the CCA issue would be damn near useless for me if I had to resign from work!)

 

Also that the OFT do not prohibit interest of charges being added to loan accounts when in dispute and not credit card accounts.

 

The Bank are deemed not to require to forward copies of the term of the agreement at the time it was opened but can get away with current terms and conditions.

 

That the correct course of resolving this would be in court if I was a defaulting debtor (so, they're effectively asking me to stop paying and force Sainsburys to take me to court!)

 

I'm not disappointed as I've read from other people that the FOS don't exactly view these matters favourably. Oh well, let's hope they FOS take them to task on the pre-ticked PPI acceptance box on the CCA!

[Goldlady]

Does anyone know if an agreement can be faxed i just received a supposed fax outlining an application for credit agreement which i never ever received an agreement for.

 

On top of that the creditor is dell financial services

 

then it says cit group

 

then tyco capital all on different pieces of paper

 

It does look enforceable to me mikedesign. Tyco capital are the finance company dell used and cit group - I have no idea what that is about. When did you last make a payment on this and how much do you owe them?

Edited February 5, 2009 by Goldlady
cit group - who are they?

[steven4064]

I agree with Goldlady, the agreement seems all in order. The only quibble might be that it ought to say "fixed sum crdit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974" at the top. THis would make it not properly executed but it would still be enforceable.