Cap1 & CCA return

[car2403]

over three years ago i think

 

In that case, the answer to your question is - yes...

 

If the agreement isn't signed, there is no legal way they can force you to pay but that doesn't mean you don't still owe the money.

 

Now, whether you will or won't pay is a question only you can answer. I know CAG won't condone non-payment of an unenforceable debt, neither will I advise it shouldn't be paid. That's up to your conscience.

 

If the agreement was covered by the Consumer Credit Act 2006, the debt would be enforceable even without a signature. Hence my question about when it was signed, as that's very relevant for this reason.

[ncf355]

Post here re: a change to the law in charging orders, anyone else aware of this?

 

because I sure as heck wasnt!

[noomill060]

Hi guys, ages since I posted on this thread.

 

Could anyone point me to the section of the CCA74 where its says that a borrower my claim for unlawful charges etc, even if the agreement is unenforceable by virtue of s.127(3)?

 

(Bcard have failed to respond to my CCA s.78 request and I want to go for my charges and PPI premiums)

[angry cat]

Hi Guys,

 

I have been thinking a lot about the subject of Assignments.

 

I note that, the majority of DCA's who claim to have been sold, or purchased debts under section 136 of the Law of Property Act 1925, state that they hold the Benefits but not the Duties.

 

This had led me to the following thought that;

Distressed Debts, or Losses, are sold via securitisation, in job lots;

NOVATION OF DEBT;

 

Novation does not involve the assignment or rights (Duties) under the original loan.

 

Novation Agreements?

A new loan is created in identical terms to the original loan in so far as the identity of the lender is concered. This is particularly likely in a group context.

 

AC

[freedomlizi]

hello, i am new to this site.

[angry cat]

Hi Guys,

 

I have been thinking a lot about the subject of Assignments.

 

I note that, the majority of DCA's who claim to have been sold, or purchased debts under section 136 of the Law of Property Act 1925, state that they hold the Benefits but not the Duties.

 

This had led me to the following thought that;

Distressed Debts, or Losses, are sold via securitisation, in job lots;

NOVATION OF DEBT;

 

Novation does not involve the assignment or rights (Duties) under the original loan.

 

Novation Agreements?

A new loan is created in identical terms to the original loan in so far as the identity of the lender is concered. This is particularly likely in a group context.

 

AC

 

Novation

The transfer of rights and obligations from one contracting party (which is released of those obligations) to a third party with the agreement of all the contracting parties. See asset sale.

 

AC

[freedomlizi]

Can a credit card company use these powers if they cannot legally prove the debt i.e cannot show copy of your signed credit card agreement???

>

[hellhasnofury]

Novation

The transfer of rights and obligations from one contracting party (which is released of those obligations) to a third party with the agreement of all the contracting parties. See asset sale.

 

AC

 

Hello Ac

 

How are you, well I hope.

 

I am also interested in these assignments in regards to the assignment of alleged debts:grin: under the law of property act 1925, especially when the original creditor is in serious breach of a ca request as is the DCA.

 

Can you explain a bit more about the Novation please

[car2403]

Can you explain a bit more about the Novation please

 

Novation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[IIIUMINATI]

People who jump in and ask questions which have already be covered by previous posts are like people who push in to your lane when the traffic reduces to one lane . (lazy quick fix)

Read before you ask.

Many of us have spent hours researching the information which has been provided and also providing information for others.

 

READ BEFORE YOU ASK

[hellhasnofury]

People who jump in and ask questions which have already be covered by previous posts are like people who push in to your lane when the traffic reduces to one lane . (lazy quick fix)

Read before you ask.

Many of us have spent hours researching the information which has been provided and also providing information for others.

 

READ BEFORE YOU ASK

 

Wow. was there really any need for that rude comment:eek: I presumme it was directed at me:roll:

 

So what are you implying that one cannot ask a question

 

I asked a question of a longstanding fellow cagger AC and a longstanding fellow cagger Car came to my assistance. This information I required to help another, not myself. This is the spirit of this site, we all help each other:-D Your comments are unnecessary and not really helpful to say the least

 

I am sure you are aware that others members that you help and support give you rep, you have to earn it.

 

May I suggest that we now return to doing what we do best, helping others and stop unnecessary rude retorts to others

[ncf355]

Yes, it can.

You and I are what the law calls natural persons but a limited company is what the law calls a legal person.

 

 

Thanks VS

[ncf355]

Right, heres another one (have looked, but I'm sure illumnati will put me right if it is already on here

 

When it comes to the CPR's and PD's that state they have to prduce an original agreement in court, is there anywhere that clearly defines this is the same where a creditor counterclaims against you?

 

I have recently had a DJ bring up that it only applies to "claims" whereas I wouldve thought the "statement of case" would apply as much to a counterclaim as a claim

 

So, if there saying "no, we dont owe joe bloggs £XXX, but we would like agreement Y enforced and for him to pay us £XXX" - then surely via that statement for their counterclaim, they too would be required to produce the original of any document they refer to?

 

Like I said, iddeally looking for case law or similar that I can reference?

[ncf355]

Wow. was there really any need for that rude comment:eek: I presumme it was directed at me:roll:

 

So what are you implying that one cannot ask a question

 

I asked a question of a longstanding fellow cagger AC and a longstanding fellow cagger Car came to my assistance. This information I required to help another, not myself. This is the spirit of this site, we all help each other:-D Your comments are unnecessary and not really helpful to say the least

 

I am sure you are aware that others members that you help and support give you rep, you have to earn it.

 

May I suggest that we now return to doing what we do best, helping others and stop unnecessary rude retorts to others

 

 

+1

 

Having read this through properly, I'm shocked

 

If indeed this was directed at HAK, how dare you Illumanati!

 

You will note he is "Platinum" and has therefore posted many more time and assisted many more members than yourself, so please show him due respect for this!

 

(As this hasnt been cleared up at the time of my posting, if it turns out you aimed the comment elsewhere I offer you my sincere apologies)

[IIIUMINATI]

My posting was not directed at any individual

[ncf355]

Hi Illumin,

 

that being the case (and as stated in my post at the end) I offer you my apologies

 

[angry cat]

My posting was not directed at any individual

 

WELL, WHY MAKE THE COMMENT THEN?

 

If your comment was made about my post regarding; Novation of Debt. I apologise if the subject has already been covered elsewhere on the site.

However, I believe that many members are totally unaware of this subject topic!

 

Many members including myself find Assignment of Asset Debts somewhat of a grey area and of course, the DCA's/Assignee's love to confuse...

 

I will post up a link that might assist.

 

www.iclg.co.uk - Securitisation

 

You can click on any of the subjects, but take a look at No. 3: Asset Sales

 

AC

Edited October 27, 2008 by angry cat

[andrew1]

WELL, WHY MAKE THE COMMENT THEN?

 

If your comment was made about my post regarding; Novation of Debt. I apologise if the subject has already been covered elsewhere on the site.

However, I believe that many members are totally unaware of this subject topic!

 

Many members including myself find Assignment of Asset Debts somewhat of a grey area and of course, the DCA's/Assignee's love to confuse...

 

I will post up a linkg that might assist.

 

AC

 

 

I would also add that obtaining copies of the assignment documents between the Original Creditor and the DCA one worthy of inspection. the Cabot Fan Club found Deeds of Assignment between MBNA and Cabot actually regulated by Irish law not the UK and therefore not worth the paper they were written on in an UK courtroom which their learned solicitors tried to hoist upon an unsuspecting Judge - Just another little gem in the Cabot Fan Club box of tricks which cost Cabot dearly

 

 

Sarah

[MAGDA]

I would also add that obtaining copies of the assignment documents between the Original Creditor and the DCA one worthy of inspection. the Cabot Fan Club found Deeds of Assignment between MBNA and Cabot actually regulated by Irish law not the UK and therefore not worth the paper they were written on in an UK courtroom which their learned solicitors tried to hoist upon an unsuspecting Judge - Just another little gem in the Cabot Fan Club box of tricks which cost Cabot dearly

 

 

Sarah

 

I have been led to be believe on occasion that the deed of assignment cannot be provided, as it contains confidential information. However, I do know of someone who sent a SAR's to one of her creditors and they sent, in response to this, a copy of the actual deed, which contained the signatures of the assignor and the assignee. So, it is possible to view them, I think it's just a case that the creditor, most of the time, doesn't wish to provide them, maybe because they have something to hide. Magda

[andrew1]

I have been led to be believe on occasion that the deed of assignment cannot be provided, as it contains confidential information. However, I do know of someone who sent a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'s to one of her creditors and they sent, in response to this, a copy of the actual deed, which contained the signatures of the assignor and the assignee. So, it is possible to view them, I think it's just a case that the creditor, most of the time, doesn't wish to provide them, maybe because they have something to hide. Magda

 

Usually it contains details of the sale itself so there would be commercially sensitive information in there like the price they paid for the debt but also in the ones we obtained they had the number of accounts which had been bought en bloc, the amount of 'free' information which came on 2 discs with the sale, and the amount the DCA (Cabot) had to pay for additional information. What I mean by that is that only 10% of all the debtors details were provided in full - agreement details etc., the rest had name, address, account info and phone number only - that's why they never have agreements when you ask for them, Cabot were charged £2 for every additional one they required - someone had to pay for Ken Maynard's new swimming pool so they never paid out for anything unnecessarily...the documents were 45- 55 pages in length and of course they were reluctant to part with them, they usually came with litigation rather than a straight CCA or SA.R request. Made fun reading though..

[MAGDA]

Usually it contains details of the sale itself so there would be commercially sensitive information in there like the price they paid for the debt but also in the ones we obtained they had the number of accounts which had been bought en bloc, the amount of 'free' information which came on 2 discs with the sale, and the amount the DCA (Cabot) had to pay for additional information. What I mean by that is that only 10% of all the debtors details were provided in full - agreement details etc., the rest had name, address, account info and phone number only - that's why they never have agreements when you ask for them, Cabot were charged £2 for every additional one they required - someone had to pay for Ken Maynard's new swimming pool so they never paid out for anything unnecessarily...the documents were 45- 55 pages in length and of course they were reluctant to part with them, they usually came with litigation rather than a straight CCA or SA.R request. Made fun reading though..

 

Yes, I guess in most cases then, because of the sensitivity of the information they are not too keen to disclose it. It's amazing how they can just buy these debts in bulk as you say (for a pittance) and not even have a copy of the agreement or anything else relevant to the account, although not really surprising! Just goes to show though, as with Cabot, if you can get hold of these documents, it can be extremely revealing....

[angry cat]

Yes Indeed!

 

Now remember that 'Novation' is also used in electronic exchanges!

 

The DCA's/Assignee's continually state that they have bought the debts under section 136 the Law of property act 1925, thus one would presume that these assignments are absolute.

However, the DCA's/Assignee's state that they have the benefits of the debts, but not the Duties and the original lender is still a Creditor!?

Which doesn't make for common sense.

Meaning; If one buys an item, you buy it lock, stock and barrel.

 

Now of course, if the agreement has been altered by Novation, that would change the whole situation, but what happenes when a pre-novation breach was identified after the date of novation e.g. an unenforceable credit agreement that does not comply with s60 & s61 of the CCA?

That would depend on how the novation agreement was drafted.

 

The follwong makes for an interesting read:

 

http://www.salans.de/FileServer.aspx?oID=1242&lID=0

 

AC

[andrew1]

Yes, I guess in most cases then, because of the sensitivity of the information they are not too keen to disclose it. It's amazing how they can just buy these debts in bulk as you say (for a pittance) and not even have a copy of the agreement or anything else relevant to the account, although not really surprising! Just goes to show though, as with Cabot, if you can get hold of these documents, it can be extremely revealing....

 

Well one has to remember, keeping in context with the thread, that these DCA's are only too happy to repossess houses on the strength of their collection activity and issue Stat Demands, Charging Orders and no end of things to get their money so if we can expose, as we did, that the agreements are unenforceable then peoples homes would not have been lost as a result with all that goes with that darstardly act. Just shows you a lot of people would not go through what they do if they were wiser and aware of the things we find out by looking deeper into their shenannigans behind the scenes.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

we think you have until saturday to ask a question

 

 

 

"TREASURY COMMITTEE INVITES QUESTIONS FROM THE PUBLIC TO PUT TO THE CHANCELLOR ON THE BANKING CRISIS"

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/campaign/165996-ask-chancellor-question-banking.html#post1786440

 

................... now who needs educating on section 78 (inter alia) :wink:

[ncf355]

Hi,

 

back to novation..........

 

So is it right to assume that if the DCA responds to a s78 without quoting the property act and "right to the debt, but no obligations" horse poo, that the DCA has been assigned it and it is not a novation?

 

How can we ascertain for certain whether it is a "novation" or "assisgnment"?