Cap1 & CCA return

[SharpmanTF1]

I think they're just trying to confuse you by quoting these regs. Here is Reg 3:

 

'General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

 

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.'

You will note 3 (1) - shall be a true copy thereof

 

The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it.

 

You will also note 3(1) 'delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act'. If you were to apply under SARs they have to supply a copy of the original IF they hold it on your file & you specifically request it. They cannot send a reconstructed 'true' copy as SARs provision is part of the Data Protection Act not the CCA1974 & the above Reg. applies to CCA.

 

Least, that's how I understand it. Clear as mud?

 

You would think. I guess the only way forward is to S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) them.

I'll see what jargon she comes back with now. But, I'm hoping that it won't be the same person as it's been sent to the data controller. Unless she works in the same department. Wouldn't surprise me.

 

Sharpman

[jax007]

Don't do it - they shouldn't be asking you to repay like this.

 

DON'T! do it???? It's more a question of CAN'T even if I wanted to ... which I don't!!

 

Thanx Elizabeth

[bigmo]

Hi, i've been reading these threads and have just got confused, until recently i never missed a payment, then unfortunately i got ill and lost my job, i have today written to my cc providers requesting a copy of my agreement and if they provide the agreements and they are enforcable can i still claim back any interest payments under s85 of the act as everytime i was issued with a new card i never received a copy of my agreement with it, any help would be gratefully appreciated, thank you.

[questioning]

Hi Questioning - isn't it the case that it is an "offence", but after 12 (+2) days, so the creditor now does not have a further month in which to comply?

 

Yes, So the one month for criminal offence no longer applies, I could of sworn that letter said "criminal offence", (seeing things again) but anyway I thought you just left out the 30 day part, and just allow the 12+ 2 working days for compliance.

A good thread on all of this is here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/147392-cca-dcas-unfair-commercial.html

Edited September 10, 2008 by questioning
added text to try & make sense

[un1boy]

Thanks un1boy.

 

Could you point me in the correct direction of where i can find the S78 request template letter?

 

Also.. I am thinking of sending a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to Scotcall to find out exactly why they have stopped collecting.. and if they or Lloyds have passed the Debt onto Moorcroft??

 

CONFUSED!!!!!

 

The debt is was older than 6 years, Lloyds no longer shows on my credit file that i have received a copy of... and if Scotcall do not have a copy of the Credit Agreement either what is the position there, as they would have been collecting somehting that the lender has oficially cleared, and they lawfully dont actually have the right to collect upon??

 

I wouldn't write to them - just leave it now, why poke the fire? If they aren't collecting anymore then no worries.

[gaz2006]

I would forward a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for a copy of the original agreement. The regs have no effect under a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

 

Argos have not complied with your request - the creditor and debtors name and address MUST be included for compliance. I have had this confirmed by the OFT who have taken legal guidance on this.

 

I would make a complaint to Mr Henry Aitchison (enforcement officer at the OFT) and mention my name.

 

I have asked the OFT to clarify their position on this by email or letter but they have refused. However, the OFT have come clean on this to two media sources.

 

PW

 

Have you anything from oft on this that other people could use ? Regards Gaz

[MAGDA]

duplicate entered in error - now removed

Edited September 11, 2008 by MAGDA

[MAGDA]

I would forward a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for a copy of the original agreement. The regs have no effect under a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

 

Argos have not complied with your request - the creditor and debtors name and address MUST be included for compliance. I have had this confirmed by the OFT who have taken legal guidance on this.

 

I would make a complaint to Mr Henry Aitchison (enforcement officer at the OFT) and mention my name.

 

I have asked the OFT to clarify their position on this by email or letter but they have refused. However, the OFT have come clean on this to two media sources.

 

PW

 

Hi, Just received an email response from the OFT in reply to a complaint I recently made. It seems to contradict the above:

 

"A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

If the name and address can be excluded, how can the debtor possibly have a clue whether it is their agreement or not?

[Having_A_Knightmare]

I need to nail one of favourite DC in Court soon but I could do with more info on Current Accounts Overdrafts.

 

Ive heard they need to produce something IE. a letter stating the interest etc. Where does this info come from??

 

Also should there be a signed agrement between the creditor and debitor on currnent accounts??

 

Surely if there is credit going to be avaialbe it should be the same as a CC agreement?

 

HAK

[paulwlton]

Hi, Just received an email response from the OFT in reply to a complaint I recently made. It seems to contradict the above:

 

"A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

If the name and address can be excluded, how can the debtor possibly have a clue whether it is their agreement or not?

 

TS obviously haven't read or choose to ignore the regs.

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Hi, Just received an email response from the OFT in reply to a complaint I recently made. It seems to contradict the above:

 

"A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

If the name and address can be excluded, how can the debtor possibly have a clue whether it is their agreement or not?

 

 

MAGDA

 

T/S are the biggest waste of space going.

All they are intrested are easy pickings like selling a lottery ticket to a 15 year old.

 

They wind me up:mad:

[foolishgirl]

"A ‘true copy’ .... The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

I

 

Oh yes it does Magda!

 

TS are either being thick, ignorant or deliberately misconstruing the Regs. see the full text in my post above but think this is the excerpt you will need to quote at them

 

'General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and ...'

 

The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it.

 

Do you know them well at TS now magda? Bet they wait with bated breath for your daily missive....

[lexis200]

Hi

 

I'm currently trying to sort out CCA's with MBNA and HBOS (via Blair Oliver Scott). I've had the agreements back, HBOS is pretty clearly useless, but I'm not sure about MBNA as the prescribed terms seem to be there, but the actual terms were just attached, and were several years newer than the original account.

 

If anyone could have a look at the threads and give me a nudge with how to proceed I'd really appreciate it! I've had a bit of help going, particularly with my MBNA thread, but it's all a bit quiet at the moment and I need to get letters out and things moving in general.

 

The threads are here if anyone has time to look:)

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/156429-lexis200-hbos-blair-oliver.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/156409-lexis200-mbna-just-starting.html

 

Thanks!!

[MAGDA]

TS obviously haven't read or choose to ignore the regs.

 

MAGDA

 

T/S are the biggest waste of space going.

All they are intrested are easy pickings like selling a lottery ticket to a 15 year old.

 

They wind me up:mad:

 

Oh yes it does Magda!

 

TS are either being thick, ignorant or deliberately misconstruing the Regs. see the full text in my post above but think this is the excerpt you will need to quote at them

 

'General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and ...'

 

 

The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it.

 

Do you know them well at TS now magda? Bet they wait with bated breath for your daily missive....

 

Hi all, sorry, on my first post I inadvertently typed in TS (must have their name on the brain for some reason!) and meant to type in OFT, which I did on the second one. I didn't think the first post had gone on, but it appears it did (now deleted it). So infact, the extract from the email I quoted came from the OFT direct, yesterday.

 

Oh and yes, FG, TS do know me quite well now and let's just say I don't think they exactly look forward to my next email

 

Magda

[MAGDA]

Just rang OFT and they are going to pass my comments on to the manager there for a response. I explained that the statement OFT made was incorrect and explained why, and said I will expect a conlusive answer on this as soon as possible. So, be interesting to see what they come back with. It is quite worrying to think that OFT don't actually appear to know what they are talking about.

[ladybird17]

"It is quite worrying to think that OFT don't actually appear to know what they are talking about."

No change there then!

[angry cat]

by MAGDA:

 

"It is quite worrying to think that OFT don't actually appear to know what they are talking about".

 

How right you are...very worrying indeed!

 

AC

[MAGDA]

by MAGDA:

 

"It is quite worrying to think that OFT don't actually appear to know what they are talking about".

 

How right you are...very worrying indeed!

 

AC

 

Yes, no wonder the creditors/DCAs can get away with murder, hardly surprising really is it?

[un1boy]

Hi, Just received an email response from the OFT in reply to a complaint I recently made. It seems to contradict the above:

 

"A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided."

 

If the name and address can be excluded, how can the debtor possibly have a clue whether it is their agreement or not?

 

Hiya

 

If I PM you my email address, would you mind forwarding me a copy? No problem if not?!

 

It's just that the judge in my case said that the agreement was enforcable despite the babk admitting they don't have the t&c's.......

[un1boy]

I need to nail one of favourite DC in Court soon but I could do with more info on Current Accounts Overdrafts.

 

Ive heard they need to produce something IE. a letter stating the interest etc. Where does this info come from??

 

Also should there be a signed agrement between the creditor and debitor on currnent accounts??

 

Surely if there is credit going to be avaialbe it should be the same as a CC agreement?

 

HAK

 

Well, they are meant to provide the following:

The s74 determination in respect of bank overdrafts (see Q1.4) applies subject to the following conditions:

• the creditor must inform the OFT in writing of his general intention to enter into such agreements;

• the debtor must be informed, at or before the time an agreement is concluded, of the following:

o the credit limit (if any)

o the annual rate of interest and any charges applicable, and the conditions under which these may be varied

• the above information must be confirmed in writing.

 

However, the bank couldn't provide these in my case and therefore I argued that part V of the CCA applies and therefore they must have a credit agreement.

 

I lost though!

[MAGDA]

Hiya

 

If I PM you my email address, would you mind forwarding me a copy? No problem if not?!

 

It's just that the judge in my case said that the agreement was enforcable despite the babk admitting they don't have the t&c's.......

 

Hi Un1, no that's fine, if you let me have your email, I'll do it for you this evening.

 

Magda

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Well, they are meant to provide the following:

The s74 determination in respect of bank overdrafts (see Q1.4) applies subject to the following conditions:

• the creditor must inform the OFT in writing of his general intention to enter into such agreements;

• the debtor must be informed, at or before the time an agreement is concluded, of the following:

o the credit limit (if any)

o the annual rate of interest and any charges applicable, and the conditions under which these may be varied

• the above information must be confirmed in writing.

 

However, the bank couldn't provide these in my case and therefore I argued that part V of the CCA applies and therefore they must have a credit agreement.

 

I lost though!

 

 

Uni

 

IS this info frm the CCA1 1974?

[Hopeful1]

Sorry, i'm here to interrupt again. Can anyone have a look at this agreement that Lexis has been sent by MBNA please and add comments to her thread?

 

Thank you in advance!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/156409-lexis200-mbna-just-starting.html#post1696642

[un1boy]

Uni

 

IS this info frm the CCA1 1974?

 

Yeh, from the determination issued by the OFT under sec 74 of the CCA - the determination was issued in the 1980's

[humbleman]

Just rang OFT and they are going to pass my comments on to the manager there for a response. I explained that the statement OFT made was incorrect and explained why, and said I will expect a conlusive answer on this as soon as possible. So, be interesting to see what they come back with. It is quite worrying to think that OFT don't actually appear to know what they are talking about.

 

Dear Mr Philip Collins

 

I have some serious concerns about the lack of training given to your key managers in relation to CCA 1974. Since you are a trained lawyer I would assume that you are aware of the same, if for any reason you had missed this during the course of you career I have attached it with this correspondence.

 

My question to your department was ........................................................

 

your departments answer was .............................................................................

 

it should be.................................................................................................

 

please ensure that this is a standard template you use when questioned in relation to the requirements of CCA 1974

 

I await your prompt rely.

 

 

cc. prime Minister, The Queen and all the papers.

Edited September 11, 2008 by humbleman
to edit the name of the chairman