Cap1 & CCA return

[Goldlady]

Well the 'true copy' of my tesco card agreement showed the credit limit when we 'fell out' and not the original credit limit. Which differs substantially. You would think that they would have records of the original figures if not the actual agreement......

[un1boy]

If they don't hold the original how can they create a "true copy". imo it is an absolute abuse of a statute to claim a "true copy" can be recreated from banking records. You will have seen emails from the OFT stateing something on the lines that it would be difficult for a creditor to comply with the relevant section if there is no original.

 

Yeh, but most judges would accept this sort of behaviour from the banks, wouldn't they? That's the problem.....I agree with you though.....

[un1boy]

Well the 'true copy' of my tesco card agreement showed the credit limit when we 'fell out' and not the original credit limit. Which differs substantially. You would think that they would have records of the original figures if not the actual agreement......

 

Haha, excellent - I hope you have the original because if you do, could they basically be accused of fraud?

 

That's the next stage for me with my claims - I am going to take them to court for fraud for allowing my clim to go to court wihtout having an enforcable agreement.

 

It would defo be fraud in your case!!!

[Goldlady]

One of my court defences was based on the fact that they could not produce statements for around two years, and I could not therefore be certain that the amount they were claiming was correct as they could not show what payments I had made in that period.

[Goldlady]

I doubt I have the original, but I probably have the statements showing the original credit limit now you mention it. Not that they have taken me to court - in fact of all my creditors they have to get the most reasonably behaved award:D

[un1boy]

I doubt I have the original, but I probably have the statements showing the original credit limit now you mention it. Not that they have taken me to court - in fact of all my creditors they have to get the most reasonably behaved award:D

 

Lucky you re their behaviour!!

 

Well, if you could prove that their alleged "true" copy is not exact then it is fraud completely and utterly.

[paulwlton]

Yeh, but most judges would accept this sort of behaviour from the banks, wouldn't they? That's the problem.....I agree with you though.....

 

Unfortunatley not all judges are up to date on consumer law.

[un1boy]

Unfortunatley not all judges are up to date on consumer law.

 

Tell me about it!!

[SharpmanTF1]

has anybody been able to get a CCA (true Copy) off Argos recently?

 

I've tried like hell and all i'm getting thrown at me is

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices

and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 explains what must be included in the copy agreement.

Regulation 3 provides that the copy may omit certain information, including the signature box and your name

and address.

 

And all they send me is a computer generated document less name address and signature.

 

I think they're misinterprating the regulation that they are quoting. But, me being a layman can't provide a good argument to insist they supply.

 

Sharpman

[elizabeth1]

Can someone confirm that when a debt is passed to a DCA there is something (?) illegal about them asking you to settle it with a credit card.

 

I need to know the correct wording for my reply to them if anyone can help please.

 

Thanx

jax

 

 

I am sure OFT say that these companies shouldn't be encouraging customers to borrow and go more into debt to repay them etc..

 

I have read this and will try find it for you.

 

Don't do it - they shouldn't be asking you to repay like this.

[wealthy]

Hi Guys

 

I've been scouring the forum for a letter to send to the bank, because I asked them for a credit card agreement and they sent me a copy of the application form. It states at the top Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, i am unable to read it clearly, using a magnifying glass I've tried to scan for prescribed terms they appear to be missing. Is there a letter stating that this is not an enforceable agreement and therefore they are in default etc etc.

 

Thanks. I just don't want to put the wrong things.

 

Wealthy in spirit only

[paulwlton]

has anybody been able to get a CCA (true Copy) off Argos recently?

 

I've tried like hell and all i'm getting thrown at me is

 

 

And all they send me is a computer generated document less name address and signature.

 

I think they're misinterprating the regulation that they are quoting. But, me being a layman can't provide a good argument to insist they supply.

 

Sharpman

 

I would forward a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for a copy of the original agreement. The regs have no effect under a sar.

 

Argos have not complied with your request - the creditor and debtors name and address MUST be included for compliance. I have had this confirmed by the OFT who have taken legal guidance on this.

 

I would make a complaint to Mr Henry Aitchison (enforcement officer at the OFT) and mention my name.

 

I have asked the OFT to clarify their position on this by email or letter but they have refused. However, the OFT have come clean on this to two media sources.

 

PW

[foolishgirl]

So HAK, you're exactly where I am?

 

I was asked at my original hearing if I owed the money and had to answer "Yes" !

 

I think if DJs are going to take your word as law & not the House of Lords, maybe the answer should be 'No, I don't owe the money because it is deemed to be a 'gift' & point the judge to Wilson v FCT' You are still telling the truth - you may have had the money from the creditor but you don't owe the money!

[MAGDA]

Hi Guys

 

I've been scouring the forum for a letter to send to the bank, because I asked them for a credit card agreement and they sent me a copy of the application form. It states at the top Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, i am unable to read it clearly, using a magnifying glass I've tried to scan for prescribed terms they appear to be missing. Is there a letter stating that this is not an enforceable agreement and therefore they are in default etc etc.

 

Thanks. I just don't want to put the wrong things.

 

Wealthy in spirit only

 

Hi Wealthy, I would send them something along the lines of the letter below (posted by Davefirewalker recently):

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: − Account/Reference Number nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

 

On the dd/mm/yyyy I requested a copy of the agreement relating to this account. The time specified by law for such a request is 12 working days. The twelve working days expired on dd/mm/yyyy. You then have a further month before committing an offence

 

You have been in default under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 since dd/mm/yyyy, and since dd/mm/yyyy you have committed an offence.

The only documentation that you have supplied is a copy of a pre-contractual application form. This does not meet with the requirements of the Act.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself.

 

The application form you have supplied does not contain the required prescribed terms, which are laid out in schedule 6 of the “Consumer Credit (agreements) Regulations 1983”. The minimum requirements of sch 6 of the 1983 regs are......

 

1 Rate of any interest applied to the agreement

2 repayment schedule

3 Credit limit or statement that it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.

 

These are noticeable by there absence, and it is my belief that the agreement is unenforceable via S65 and S127(3) of The Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

You will find that in several cases in the high courts especially (Wilson v Hurstanger para 9-11) it has been held that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document and not in any other document referred to.

 

Whilst in default you should cease all collection activity and all reporting to the credit reference Agencies. If you have not already done so I now demand that you cease from processing and not start any new processing of my data, as any further processing of my data would be inaccurate and contrary to the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

I make this statutory demand under S10 of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

I now require that you either provide me with a copy of the correct document, or your written acknowledgement that you are unable to do so.

 

I await your response

 

Yours faithfully,

[tinkerbell20]

Hi All

 

Interesting debate as to whether or not a creditor ever has to actually produce an agreement to enforce is ongoing on the following thread.....................http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/95027-cabot-county-court-claim-27.html#post1705108

[SharpmanTF1]

I would forward a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for a copy of the original agreement. The regs have no effect under a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

 

Argos have not complied with your request - the creditor and debtors name and address MUST be included for compliance. I have had this confirmed by the OFT who have taken legal guidance on this.

 

I would make a complaint to Mr Henry Aitchison (enforcement officer at the OFT) and mention my name.

 

I have asked the OFT to clarify their position on this by email or letter but they have refused. However, the OFT have come clean on this to two media sources.

 

PW

 

Thanks for that, As Moorcroft have thrown a 'NOTICE OF INTENDED LITIGATION' at me can I throw a CPR request at them to get this information (saves £10.00). or am I going to have to stump up the dosh and send direct to ARGOS?

 

Sharpman.

[pt2537]

Thanks for that, As Moorcroft have thrown a 'NOTICE OF INTENDED LITIGATION' at me can I throw a CPR request at them to get this information (saves £10.00). or am I going to have to stump up the dosh and send direct to ARGOS?

 

Sharpman.

if they are relying upon this letter as a letter before claim then you should refer them to the CPR practice direction preaction protocols which set out what a LBC should contain and how you should reply:D

 

i would have a read of them, especially CPR PD PAP 4.3;)

[wealthy]

Thanks Magda for the letter.

 

Wealthy

[SharpmanTF1]

Ok, i've gone for the full S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) route. See what that throws up. Can they quote

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices

and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

as an excuse for no providing, or can I insist they supply if they have it.

 

Sharpman

[reallymadwoman]

Under an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) they have to produce everything they have on you, with certain exceptions that are never going to apply to copy agreements.

 

If they don't supply something when you've done an SAR and it later turns up (e.g. a copy agreement) then they will be in serious trouble with the information commissioner and possibly the courts if they only produce it once proceedings have been issued.

[BlueSquirrel]

Hi All

 

Interesting debate as to whether or not a creditor ever has to actually produce an agreement to enforce is ongoing on the following thread.....................http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/95027-cabot-county-court-claim-27.html#post1705108

 

I have read the other thread and now I am totally boggled. I had understood so far that if the creditor could not produce the original agreement it could not be enforced. Is this now not considered the case or I have I missed something.

 

Would it be a good idea where we don't have copies of our agreements to SAR any companies we have dealings with just so we can be prepared for any issues that might arise?

[zosaphine]

I would write to Moorecroft asking them for the deed of assignment to prove their ownership of the debt and also send them a sec 78 request. Or, instead of sending an official sec 78 request, I normally jsut write to them asking if they have an agreement that conforms to the CCA and if they dont reply with a copy of it within 14 days, Ill send an offical request.

 

Normally, they just write back saying they are no longer pursuing the debt and send it back......you normally end up with another letter from a debt collector/solicitor though because they jsut send the debt to someone else.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Thanks un1boy.

 

Could you point me in the correct direction of where i can find the S78 request template letter?

 

Also.. I am thinking of sending a SAR to Scotcall to find out exactly why they have stopped collecting.. and if they or Lloyds have passed the Debt onto Moorcroft??

 

CONFUSED!!!!!

 

The debt is was older than 6 years, Lloyds no longer shows on my credit file that i have received a copy of... and if Scotcall do not have a copy of the Credit Agreement either what is the position there, as they would have been collecting somehting that the lender has oficially cleared, and they lawfully dont actually have the right to collect upon??

[foolishgirl]

Ok, i've gone for the full S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) route. See what that throws up. Can they quote

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices

and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

 

as an excuse for no providing, or can I insist they supply if they have it.

 

Sharpman

 

 

I think they're just trying to confuse you by quoting these regs. Here is Reg 3:

 

'General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

 

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

 

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

 

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.'

You will note 3 (1) - shall be a true copy thereof

 

The omissions permitted are only those in 2(b). Name & address omission is not permitted under 2 © as you have to assume the agreement was executed in order for them to be applying it.

 

You will also note 3(1) 'delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act'. If you were to apply under SARs they have to supply a copy of the original IF they hold it on your file & you specifically request it. They cannot send a reconstructed 'true' copy as SARs provision is part of the DPA not the CCA1974 & the above Reg. applies to CCA.

 

Least, that's how I understand it. Clear as mud?

[questioning]

Thanks Magda for the letter.

 

Wealthy

 

Hi Wealthy,

The letter idea posted for you earlier in this thread is fine except the part about committing an offence under S77-79, this was repealed by Regulation 30, The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, which came into effect sometime in may 08.

[MAGDA]

Hi Wealthy,

The letter idea posted for you earlier in this thread is fine except the part about committing an offence under S77-79, this was repealed by Regulation 30, The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, which came into effect sometime in may 08.

 

Hi Questioning - isn't it the case that it is an "offence", but after 12 (+2) days, so the creditor now does not have a further month in which to comply?

Edited September 10, 2008 by MAGDA