Cap1 & CCA return

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Shane Im loosing my marbles today

 

So basically when you fill in one of them application forms that get sent through the post and next thing you have a Credit card laying on your door mat it aint enforcable because they should have sent you all the stuff relaiting to the account to you within 7 days.

 

Is this correct

 

HAK

[Stornoway]

I wonder if anyone can help me - I wrote to Egg recently for a copy of my loan agreement (unsecured loan for £15k taken out in January 2002) and whilst they did supply a copy I spotted what I think are a couple of flaws;

1. There is no "total amount payable" and no "total charge for credit" detailed in the agreement.

2. The agreement is signed and dated by Eggbefore the date of signature (I understand that I have to sign the agreement first)

 

I have pointed these issues out to Egg as they are basically pushing hard for repayment and threatening to send a DCA to visit me at home.

 

In response Egg say that regarding point 1. above the requirement to show total amount of credit and total amount payable was only introduced on 31st May 2005 and in relation to point 2. it doesnt matter who signs the agreement first.

 

Can anyone help me by confirming whether I am correct in my stance or whether Egg are correct ?

 

A copy of the agreement can be found here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/111686-help-egg-loan-enforceable.html#post1095011

 

Many thanks.

[davefirewalker]

Hi Stornoway

 

they are correct in point 1

 

as for point 2 it does make a difference........

 

however the only way to be sure is to post the agreement here.....please remove ALL identifiable details first adddresses acct nos. etc

 

A lot of EGG agreements suck big time...

 

rgds

 

Dave

[davefirewalker]

Shane Im loosing my marbles today

 

So basically when you fill in one of them application forms that get sent through the post and next thing you have a Credit card laying on your door mat it aint enforcable because they should have sent you all the stuff relaiting to the account to you within 7 days.

 

Is this correct

 

HAK

 

 

I dont think so...

 

I seem to remember a section where they can send any other stuff with the card... and your use of the card is classed as an acceptance of terms etc..

 

but i could be wrong minds a bit fuddled with wine at the mo

 

Dave

[pt2537]

Shane Im loosing my marbles today

 

So basically when you fill in one of them application forms that get sent through the post and next thing you have a Credit card laying on your door mat it aint enforcable because they should have sent you all the stuff relaiting to the account to you within 7 days.

 

Is this correct

 

HAK

 

 

Hi HAK,

 

i believe that the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) covers this situation

 

i emailed you a copy

 

regards

paul

[Stornoway]

Hi Stornoway

 

they are correct in point 1

 

as for point 2 it does make a difference........

 

however the only way to be sure is to post the agreement here.....please remove ALL identifiable details first adddresses acct nos. etc

 

A lot of EGG agreements suck big time...

 

rgds

 

Dave

 

Thanks a lot Dave - at least I have clarity even if the answer is not what I had hoped. A copy of the agreement is in photobucket here pg1eggloan.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

and here

pg3loan.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

 

I really appreciate your help - the DCA is getting a bit scary !

[davefirewalker]

At first look all the main prescibed terms are there....sorry

 

i will give it a good look tomorrow when I'm slightly more sober...

 

rgds

 

dave

[Peterbard]

Hi all

 

Ive got a question not sure if its been discused before.

 

When you originally signed up for say a credit card are the banks supposed to send you a copy for your records of the agreement. I am asing this because I can not remember ever been sent a copy of an application form agreement.

 

HAK

 

HI

 

When you apply for a credit card by filling in a unsigned (by the creditor) agreement and then sending it offf to be signed and therefore executed there should be a copy with the one that you send for you to keep this gives you a record of what you are willing to agree to. This is called the copy 1 agreement.

 

When the agreement is signed and executed by the creditor then they must send you a copy of that executed agreement within seven days included in this must be the details of your cancellation period and how and where to send any notice of cancellations the prescribed forms for these documents are listed within the 1983/1553 agreement regulations.

 

The only exeptions to the 7 day rule for the copy 2 agreement is in the case of a credit card where the copy 2 may be sent earlier or with the card itself.

Also if the agreement was pre signed by the creditor and thus executed by the debtors signature they do not have to send a copy 2 becaus it is supplied with the copy you signed (it usually takes the form of a carbon copy which is under the agreement you send back.)

Best regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

I wonder if anyone can help me - I wrote to Egg recently for a copy of my loan agreement (unsecured loan for £15k taken out in January 2002) and whilst they did supply a copy I spotted what I think are a couple of flaws;

1. There is no "total amount payable" and no "total charge for credit" detailed in the agreement.

2. The agreement is signed and dated by Eggbefore the date of signature (I understand that I have to sign the agreement first)

 

I have pointed these issues out to Egg as they are basically pushing hard for repayment and threatening to send a DCA to visit me at home.

 

In response Egg say that regarding point 1. above the requirement to show total amount of credit and total amount payable was only introduced on 31st May 2005 and in relation to point 2. it doesnt matter who signs the agreement first.

 

Can anyone help me by confirming whether I am correct in my stance or whether Egg are correct ?

 

A copy of the agreement can be found here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/111686-help-egg-loan-enforceable.html#post1095011

 

Many thanks.

 

HI

 

The TAP and TAC are required tems for any agreement regulated by the act according to sections 9 and 11 of schedule 1 of the 1983/1553 agreement regulations and if absent would render the agreement enforceable only by order of the court.

 

I think what they are getting confused with is the interest rate which is not required on this type of agreement untill the introduction of the ammended regulatilns in 2005(1482).

 

Although not prescribed terms the total charge for creditit is quite important as without it and with no interst stated their is no way of checking if the APR is correct this could be used to challenge the enforceabily under seciont 127(1)i.

 

I have not managed to look at the agreement yet but will if you like and give you a mor in depth view.

 

Best regards

peter

[Peterbard]

Hi Sorry didn't answer your second question regarding signatures.

The difference is that if the agreement was executed by whoever signed the agreement last. THis date will be the one that you cancellation runs from if applicable and it will also effect the method and delivery requirements of the copy agreement and cancellation deatails.

 

Best reagrd

 

Peter

[davefirewalker]

I wonder if anyone can help me - I wrote to Egg recently for a copy of my loan agreement (unsecured loan for £15k taken out in January 2002) and whilst they did supply a copy I spotted what I think are a couple of flaws;

1. There is no "total amount payable" and no "total charge for credit" detailed in the agreement.

2. The agreement is signed and dated by Eggbefore the date of signature (I understand that I have to sign the agreement first)

 

I have pointed these issues out to Egg as they are basically pushing hard for repayment and threatening to send a DCA to visit me at home.

 

In response Egg say that regarding point 1. above the requirement to show total amount of credit and total amount payable was only introduced on 31st May 2005 and in relation to point 2. it doesnt matter who signs the agreement first.

 

Can anyone help me by confirming whether I am correct in my stance or whether Egg are correct ?

 

A copy of the agreement can be found here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/111686-help-egg-loan-enforceable.html#post1095011

 

Many thanks.

 

Hi Stornoway.....

 

right then, I'm sober now

 

points to note

 

1 NO total charge for credit (1983 regs si1553 schedule 1 para 9)

 

2 NO total amount payable (1983 regs si1553 schedule 1 para 11)

 

3 No default charges (1983 regs si1553 schedule 1 para 22)

 

 

What copies have they sent you ?

 

An unexecuted agreement is a document embodying the terms of the proposed agreement. It will become executed when both the trader and the customer have signed no matter who signs it first. For example, an agreement would become executed on the customer’s signature if the trader had signed it before sending it to the customer. Similarly, it would become executed if the trader presented it to the customer for

signature having first signed it himself. In the more common case where the customer signs first, the agreement will not become executed until the trader signs it. The general requirement for copy documents is that one copy (the first copy) must be given or sent to the customer when the original agreement is given or sent by post to him for his signature. Unless the agreement becomes executed when the customer signs it, a second copy must be given or sent to him by post within seven days of the making

of the agreement.

 

I believe that you may have recourse through the first three points, and would point out these facts to the DCA or OC

 

hope this helps

 

Dave

[Having_A_Knightmare]

HI

 

When you apply for a credit card by filling in a unsigned (by the creditor) agreement and then sending it offf to be signed and therefore executed there should be a copy with the one that you send for you to keep this gives you a record of what you are willing to agree to. This is called the copy 1 agreement.

 

When the agreement is signed and executed by the creditor then they must send you a copy of that executed agreement within seven days included in this must be the details of your cancellation period and how and where to send any notice of cancellations the prescribed forms for these documents are listed within the 1983/1553 agreement regulations.

 

The only exeptions to the 7 day rule for the copy 2 agreement is in the case of a credit card where the copy 2 may be sent earlier or with the card itself.

Also if the agreement was pre signed by the creditor and thus executed by the debtors signature they do not have to send a copy 2 becaus it is supplied with the copy you signed (it usually takes the form of a carbon copy which is under the agreement you send back.)

Best regards

Peter

 

Hi

 

This is the point I an trying to make.

 

A couple of my CC where applied for by them sending a flyer through the letter box. I then filled the form in and that was that.

 

No copy of the agreement ever got sent to me just a credit card.

 

Where does this leave me and the creditors.

 

HAK

[davefirewalker]

Hi

 

This is the point I an trying to make.

 

A couple of my CC where applied for by them sending a flyer through the letter box. I then filled the form in and that was that.

 

No copy of the agreement ever got sent to me just a credit card.

 

Where does this leave me and the creditors.

 

HAK

 

the credit card will have been attached to a "mailer agreement card" this is a generic agreement which by using the card you accept the t&c's. you should have been given the T&C's though

 

However they have to enforce any debt they have to provide you with a signed executed agreement embodying all the terms of the agreement.

 

the chances are the reply form you filled in did not contain all the required and prescribed terms

 

Dave

[Peterbard]

hI

As dave says you need to CCA a copy of your agreement (i would be very supprised if it cut the mustard)

The agreement would not have been cancellable unless it says it is on the document when you get it sometimes they do give cancellation rights even though they don#'t have to.

They should have sent you a copy of the executed agreement as stated above. But i will bet the result of the CCA will throw up far eiser routs to unenforceablity.

 

Best reagrds

peter

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Hi Peter

 

I am just tryinig to find another way to go when they send you an application form with all the prescribed terms on.

 

HAK

[Peterbard]

Hi Stornoway.....

 

right then, I'm sober now

 

points to note

 

1 NO total charge for credit (1983 regs si1553 schedule 1 para 9)

 

2 NO total amount payable (1983 regs si1553 schedule 1 para 11)

 

3 No default charges (1983 regs si1553 schedule 1 para 22)

 

 

What copies have they sent you ?

 

An unexecuted agreement is a document embodying the terms of the proposed agreement. It will become executed when both the trader and the customer have signed no matter who signs it first. For example, an agreement would become executed on the customer’s signature if the trader had signed it before sending it to the customer. Similarly, it would become executed if the trader presented it to the customer for

signature having first signed it himself. In the more common case where the customer signs first, the agreement will not become executed until the trader signs it. The general requirement for copy documents is that one copy (the first copy) must be given or sent to the customer when the original agreement is given or sent by post to him for his signature. Unless the agreement becomes executed when the customer signs it, a second copy must be given or sent to him by post within seven days of the making

of the agreement.

 

I believe that you may have recourse through the first three points, and would point out these facts to the DCA or OC

 

hope this helps

 

Dave

 

HI Again

 

Still havn't seen a copy of your complete agreement and i am intrigued now.

By the way not wishing to be picky but in the interests of accuracy it is not nessesarry for the creditor to include default charge info under section 22 it just mens if they don't they cant charge any.

 

Best regards

peter

[Peterbard]

Hi Peter

 

I am just tryinig to find another way to go when they send you an application form with all the prescribed terms on.

 

HAK

 

HI I would have to see it could yu send it to me or give me a link.

 

Peter

[davefirewalker]

HI Again

 

Still havn't seen a copy of your complete agreement and i am intrigued now.

By the way not wishing to be picky but in the interests of accuracy it is not nessesarry for the creditor to include default charge info under section 22 it just mens if they don't they cant charge any.

 

Best regards

peter

 

Hi peter....

 

his agreement is here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/111686-help-egg-loan-enforceable.html#post1095011

 

rgds

 

Dave

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Peter

 

It was not one in particular was just thinking ahead

 

HAK

[andrew1]

Originally Posted by Stornoway View Post

I wonder if anyone can help me - I wrote to Egg recently for a copy of my loan agreement (unsecured loan for £15k taken out in January 2002) and whilst they did supply a copy I spotted what I think are a couple of flaws;

 

1. There is no "total amount payable" and no "total charge for credit" detailed in the agreement.

 

2. The agreement is signed and dated by Eggbefore the date of signature (I understand that I have to sign the agreement first)

 

 

Is this true? :

2. The agreement is signed and dated by Egg before the date of signature (I understand that I have to sign the agreement first) ???

 

 

Sarah

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Hi All

 

If possible could someone just check the agreement on the thread below.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/119516-abound-advice-needed-please.html

[Peterbard]

Originally Posted by Stornoway View Post

I wonder if anyone can help me - I wrote to Egg recently for a copy of my loan agreement (unsecured loan for £15k taken out in January 2002) and whilst they did supply a copy I spotted what I think are a couple of flaws;

 

1. There is no "total amount payable" and no "total charge for credit" detailed in the agreement.

 

2. The agreement is signed and dated by Eggbefore the date of signature (I understand that I have to sign the agreement first)

 

 

Is this true? :

2. The agreement is signed and dated by Egg before the date of signature (I understand that I have to sign the agreement first) ???

 

 

Sarah

 

Hi Sarah

I answered this here post 10399 10400

 

 

Best regards

Peter

[MAGDA]

Hi, wonder if you can help, I have CCA'd one of my creditors - 1st Credit Finance Ltd and today received a copy of the Priority Application Form, signed by me, which states at the top Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, followed by "How to Apply" It is then just a standard application form, i.e., which on completion I signed. Is this actually a consumer credit agrement as the creditor claims? Thanks for any help.

Magda

[MAGDA]

Just to add something, have spoken to the creditor'S solicitors since making the post above, and they are dealing with my enquiry for a cca (I believe they are itching to take me to court at present, although I make regular payment (another creditor wanting a charge on an unsecured debt). The person acting for the firm of solicitors has said that the application is a consumer credit agreement and they do not need to provide anything else in order to take me to court. I disputed this and said that it is infact an application, containing only pesonal information and nothing on how the account would operate post contractually. The person said as it has my signature on the application I agreed to the debt, and also she pointed out the fact that it states on the application form "Credit Agreement regulated by the consumer credit Act 1974. I left it that I will write putting my case forward to them. Really grateful if you can help with this, Many thanks,

Magda

[shane5408]

Hi Magda,

 

Are you able to post up a copy of the alleged agreement, we need to check if it has the prescribed terms and complies with the form and content requirements

 

If they sent any further t&c's it would be useful to post them up as well.

 

kind regards,

shane