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Is this contrary to the OFTs view on complying with sec 77.

 

POST REMOVED.

 

Sorry, i've had my wrist slapped.

 

 

 

Not to worry, I got a nice sharpe copy ;)

Legal & Trade - Capital Bank CCA 4th May - 16th May due

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Is this contrary to the OFTs view on complying with sec 77.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Nice document you found there, would be interested to know where u got it, looks like it's taken from Insite which is RBS's internal intranet!!:grin:

 

Managed to snag a copy before it was removed:rolleyes: !

 

 

regards,

shane

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yep,yep,yep and yep

 

got access to pretty much all of them, if you want them

 

 

regards

paul

 

Hi,

 

Does anyone have copies of

 

Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1993

Consumer Credit (Notice of Variation of Agreements) Regulations 1977

Consumer Credit (Credit Token Agreements) Regulations 1983

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983

Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983

Consumer Credit (Quotations) Regulations 1980

Consumer credit(Agreement to enter Prospective agreements)(Exemptions) Regulations 1983

The Consumer Credit (Quotations) Regulations 1989

 

Just my luck, server crashed and lost all data:o . If anyone has any of these in electronic form please let me know!

 

kind regards,

 

shane

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yep,yep,yep and yep

 

got access to pretty much all of them, if you want them

 

 

regards

paul

 

fantastic:D in electronic form? will drop you a pm

 

cheers mate

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I wouldn't post it on any public forums. CAG are checking the legalities out.

Paul

 

 

Be nice if we got to know what they in the darker realms of CAG think the legalities are. This twit wrote that kind of statement to all those people inside RBs. I know what I'd be doing with him if he worked for my company and a little van with a blue light on top might have something to do with it !

Legal & Trade - Capital Bank CCA 4th May - 16th May due

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Hi Paul,

 

Nice document you found there, would be interested to know where u got it, looks like it's taken from Insite which is RBS's internal intranet!!:grin:

 

Managed to snag a copy before it was removed:rolleyes: !

 

 

regards,

shane

 

A nice document indeed, soon it will be revealed in court.

 

Paul

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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A nice document indeed, soon it will be revealed in court.

 

Paul

 

Watching with interest paul, have you mentioned this to your contact at OFT? Would like to know his thoughts, particularly consequential implications to the banks with regards compliance. It infers the production of reconstructed agreements in situations where the original cannot be located in time yet it is under the heading 'Lost Agreements.' Seems to me if they cannot locate the original, now as a matter of policy reconstructed ones will be used. Imo this would be a breach of contract, the Regs state what must be included within the requirements for a true copy, surely reconstucted ones with limited info cannot suffice.

 

 

kind regards,

shane

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Watching with interest paul, have you mentioned this to your contact at OFT? Would like to know his thoughts, particularly consequential implications to the banks with regards compliance. It infers the production of reconstructed agreements in situations where the original cannot be located in time yet it is under the heading 'Lost Agreements.' Seems to me if they cannot locate the original, now as a matter of policy reconstructed ones will be used. Imo this would be a breach of contract, the Regs state what must be included within the requirements for a true copy, surely reconstucted ones with limited info cannot suffice.

 

 

kind regards,

shane

 

It is the Ofts opinion that a creditor may reconstruct an agreement from its records in order to comply with sec 77. A judge may take a different view.

 

Paul

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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im sure a judge would take a different view, there is nothing in legislation which allows the creditor to re-constitute a agreement. it must be a true copy of the executed agreement. i cant see how they could reconstitute an agreement and say it is a true copy

 

surely the judge would require the original signed document to be produced infront of him/her in the court room

 

thats my view anyway

 

regards

paul

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im sure a judge would take a different view, there is nothing in legislation which allows the creditor to re-constitute a agreement. it must be a true copy of the executed agreement. i cant see how they could reconstitute an agreement and say it is a true copy

 

surely the judge would require the original signed document to be produced infront of him/her in the court room

 

thats my view anyway

 

regards

paul

 

Hi Paul I agree with you with regards to enforcing the debt, I think what Paulwlton was saying is just in relation to the creditor fulfilling their obligations under a sec 77,78 request to provide a copy of the agreement.

 

I'm still not convinced of this however. Though the Regs do allow for certain omissions from true copies, all other info must be produced pertaining to the original. If we go on what was stated on the doc, being that agreements are being reconstructed from information held on comuter systems when the loan/credit card was taken out surely there is no way all the required terms will have been kept rendering any reconstructed agreement to that effect invalid.

 

regards,

shane

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Hi been advised by Conar686 to post in this forum, any advice on this reply to a CCA request from Nationwide Credit Card.

 

The whole thing is only on one side of A4 paper and i cant really make out any small print.

This is virtually full size

nationwidecreditag.jpg

 

Bottom of 3rd column

nationwidecreditag1.jpg

 

4th column

nationwidecreditag21.jpg

 

nationwidecreditag22.jpg

 

nationwidecreditag23.jpg

 

I cant see any T & C's anywhere, no sign of Interest rates etc, nothing else was sent with this form.

 

am i correct in thinking this is non compliant and they are still in default, or unenforcable?

 

Thanks for your help

 

Original post under Nationwide http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/nationwide/117637-experienced-help-please.html

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It gets my vote - nil points:D

 

Quite amazing how it can be so long and still not comply.

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Hi Sytra,

 

It does seem to be a precontractual application form. Something is puzzling me though, at the bottom right hand corner there is a box where it states the credit limit as a financial figure, also that this was 'branch keyed' and gives an experian ref no. Was this by any chance signed at the branch?

 

regards,

shane

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We cant remember for sure if it was signed in branch, but probably was, my partner remembers taking form back and having to sit there while they typed it onto computer.

 

Cheers

 

Sytra

 

Hi Systra,

 

The Consumer credit(Agreement to enter Prospective agreements)(Exemptions) Regulations 1983/1552 state any agreement signed on company premises is to be excluded from s59(1) so you wouldn't be able to use that argument.

 

You may want to contend that the credtor has not fulfilled their obligations in providing you with copy documents and cancellation rights in the prescribed term period after the agreement was made. It clearly says at the bottom 'you will have a short time to cancel... details will be sent to you.' Looking at the dates on the agreement form I can see it became executed when creditor signed it, ie they signed it last. This means within 7 days of the agreement being made they should of sent you a copy of the executed agreement and cancellation details. If they did not it renders the agreement improperly executed and a judge is precluded from making an enforcement order by virtue of s127(4).

 

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Hi Shane,

 

it seems to me that there are no prescribed terms contained within this documet, atleast none that i can see which would automatically render it unenforceable wouldnt it

 

Regards

paul

 

Hiya,

 

Yes it would, just added an extra avenue to the pot with regard to 127(4);) Not very often we get Credit card apps signed on company premises, it's good to be up to date on all the requirements that make an agreement enforcable!

 

regards,

shane

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thanks or all your help so far:)

 

Sorry, i am getting a bit lost now, doesnt take much

 

The application was picked up in branch, taken away, filled in and signed at home then the next day dropped back into branch and they told her to wait while details were input, we didnt get any other details from them just the card through the door a few weeks later, she wasnt informed of credit limit at time or nything like that, dont know if that makes any difference??

 

Its not that we are trying to get out of paying it, but we are finding money VERY tight and nationwide are not being very helpful or understanding, all we want to do is find out if they can "legally" enforce the debt or if we are in control of it!

Sorry for all the questions

 

Sytra

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Then The Consumer credit(Agreement to enter Prospective agreements)(Exemptions) Regulations 1983/1552 would be irrelevent as it requires thatthe document is signed by the debtor on the premises so as you signed it at home its irrelevent

 

since there are no prescribed terms in the document then its unenforcable,plus its an application and as such void under s59(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 as it is arguable that it is an application to enter into future credit which is not allowed

 

to sum up, from what you have posted, in my humble opinion, they have not produced an enforcable agreement

 

 

regards

paul

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