I'm being investigated for Benefit Fraud. Can I go to court?

[hopefilly]

I am currently being investigated for benefit fraud. For JSA ESA Housing benefit and Council Tax Benefit. Dating back to 2009.

 

To give you a quick history. My ex huxband was caught cheating in Dec 2008 and in Jan 2009 I threw him out. I had also been made redundant Jan 2009. So I claimed for JSA. I suffered from depression so in Sept 09 I changed my claim to ESA. During both these claims I have also claimed housing and council tax benefit.

 

My ex husband has always been a frequent visitor to my house, as he work in a Comprehensive School about 800 yard from my home. We have a 23 year old son together and a 3 year old grand-daughter.

There were outstanding debts at the property of Rent arrears, which we arrange for him to pay a direct debit to the Housing Ass of £50 a month untill it was cleared. There were also gas and electric arrears, which although after he left I had pre paid meters put in on both. I thought it was only fair that he contibuted to the both to clear the arrears. I was approx £6 per week. He was also paying sky for a little while after he left, but that was because I was unable to cancel it because it was in his name.

 

He also paid my car insurance. I had to take my sons ex to court for grand-parents right to see my grand-daughter in 2009 after they split and thing became very strained. This was something that I did alone and did not include my ex husband. Although in 2010 when the court granted me regular access to her. Her mother asked that I was not part of the collection or return process. She ask that her grand-father collect and return her. I hadn't seen my grand-daughter properly in over a year and I agreed to this. This is now part of my court order. The car is need to collect and return my grand-daughter and when I was having financial trouble with the upkeep of the vehicle. My ex agreed to pay the insurance. It is my car and was brought after the split.

 

Also because the court order for access to my grand-daughter is mine. My ex see her at my home. And I will say for all his many fault and problems that we have. That little girl loves him to bits.

 

In Aug 2011 I recieved a letter from that housing benefit office asking my to go in for an interview 2 weeks later. Maybe being a little nieve I went to the interview believing that I didn't need legal representation because I had done nothing wrong. And even stated this during the interview when I was asked if I wanted a solicitor. They had my ex's bank statements which show the £50 rent arrears being paid and the car insurance, 2 months of sky etc. They asked me for all the address he had been staying at. I gave them the address of the school caretakers property to which I know he was staying at one point. But I also explained that my ex was very reluctant to give me any form of forwarding address because he had outstanding debts at my property and did not want me having an address to give people. They said that his bank statement and pay slips still come to my property. To which I did state was true. I also stated that I open them both every month to see what he has earn and where he has been.

 

They also told me of a provident loan that was taken out, in his name at my property in June 2009. This was the first I had heard of this and even phone the Housing benefit office at a later date to get the exact date of the loan. I phoned provident and was told that no detail could be given to me because it was not in my name. But they did tell me that no repayments had ever been made from my home. I also contacted citizens advice and ask if they was anything I could legally do. I was told there was nothing because his the property was still in Joint tenency. ( I couldn't remove his name because of the rent arrears).

 

Since having that interview I have had all my benefits stopped. And the all the letter have started coming through asking me to repay all the benefit dating back to Jan 2009. There is a gap of about 7 months in oct 2009 to May 2010 and when I phoned the benefits office, I was told that was because he was paying rent on the school property then, so is not see as living with me then.

 

I have appealled against all the decision that the benifits office have made. Also also asked the offices that want the repayment to hold them until the apeals are heard. I have also asked for a copy of the taped interview and the transcript. I have also asked both the housing benifits office and the ESA office for a copy of all the information they hold on me under the Freedom of informations act. I have found a part time job of 10hrs a week and hopefully this will cover enough of my rent to stop the housing ass seeking to evict me before the appeals for all this is heard.

 

My ex arrived at my property this morning, shouting and screaming because he has recieved a letter asking him to go for an interview regarding the part he played in my benefit fraud. He is refusing to go to the interview. He just says that he is not claiming any benefit and therefore is not answering any of there questions. It is none of there business where he is living.

 

I am just wondering how much this will count against me? Has anyone else ever had this experience? I don't know how I can make him go?

 

To me it seems that because I cannot supply another address for him. He must be living with me. How can that be right?. I thought it was innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty until you can provide the proof that your innocent?

I also think he has been staying with my sister and her partner on and off and I know she is claiming. I don't want to give the benefits office her details as the same might happen to her. Same can be said about his sisters. I know the chances are he has stayed with both of them at some point. This is a nightmare and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Not even the person that rang the office in the first place.

I believe another factor in him not providing me with a forwarding address is he stays with the girl he got caught cheating with sometimes and cannot say that because he still want to reconcile with me. Although there is no love loss between me and her and she is probably the one that phoned about the fraud in the first place. She has 2 small children and I can't give that as his address when I don't really know if it is right. This is a nightmare and I wouldn't wish it on anyone including her.

If this can happen to me when I have done nothing wrong then it can happen to anyone.

 

What I would really like to know is there anyway I can stop all these appeals and interview etc and Just get them to take me straight to court. I would actually prefer that. I feel that I would have the chance with the legal system that I am not getting with the benefits offices, they seem to have laws of there own. Can I take them to court to force then to prove there allegation?

[Nystagmite]

Is he registered at yours on the electoral roll for voting?

[hopefilly]

He was until the new form came out that I had to complete and send back, I removed him then. It was in about october 09 I think.

[ErikaPNP]

The short answer is 'no'. You cannot make them take you to court if this is not their intention.

 

They may still prosecute you, or they may not. Whether or not they do, the overpayment issue remains seperate to any prosecution. This is because the act or benefit fraud is a criminal offence which must be proven in a criminal court beyond a reasonable doubt. A recoverable overpayment can arise without benefit fraud being committed and is a civil issue for which the standard of proof is 'on the balance of probability'.

 

In cases where a person has been to court and the verdict is 'not guilty', the department can still pursue the overpayment as a civil matter. A person can fail to declare a relevant change or misrepresent their claim without the failure to disclose or misrepresentation being fraudulent. But because they have failed to declare or misrepresented their claim (or are deemed to have done so) the overpayment remains recoverable. The only place which can overturn the decision as to whether the overpayment is recoverable or not is the department themselves or the Tribunal Service which is now part of HM Court Service. To get to the tribunals service, you first need to submit an appeal to the department. If they uphold their decision, your appeal then goes to the Tribunal Service.

[hopefilly]

Hi

 

Thanks for the information.

 

That actually makes sense, where as I was lacking to make any. I was standing by the fact that they couldn't prove that I had someone living with me because I hadn't. A case of if I hadn't done anything wrong then it would all come good in the end as I thought it was based on fact, not just probability.

 

I have been hoping that they would go for a prosecution, so I could clear this up once and for all, because I thought they worked under the same laws. Right and wrong, not maybe's

 

So far I have only had advice from the CAB and maybe I need to contact a solicitor now. Do you know if I will be able to take a solicitor to represent you at the Tribunal?

 

I really do feel sorry for anyone this happens too.

[ErikaPNP]

Yes - absolutely.

 

However I would suggest that you either go for a Welfare Rights representative rather than a solicitor. Most solicitors I've come across are inexperienced in Welfare law, and using someone who is inexperienced in fighting welfare issues can be quite damaging to your case. Welfare Rights reps are also free. Your CAB or Council may be able to put you in touch with one. Due to cuts in funding however, some areas do not have reps that can attend a tribunal though they will write submissions. If you must use a solicitor, go for one who specialises in Welfare issues if you can find one. Again, CAB could advise on this.

 

If you do at any point go to criminal court, that is when to use a solicitor.

 

If you need any more help, don't hesitate to post. We'll help here as much as we can.

[MsCinderella]

Hi

My circumstances are virtually the same, I have been going through hell since April, had my IUC in May and have now had a descision for my "reconsideration", which is not good, stating an over payment of £17000. My estranged husband is a cheater also and can only provide 3 addresses for the past 10 years. he is not on any electroll registers and cannot prove his where abouts. The council have decieded he must have been living with me, when he HAS NOT. i was also left with loads of debts and cannot get credit. He left bills in his name and had a bank account registered here, which I have only just found out when I recieved the letter off the council.I am disabled and have numerous health conditions,along with depression. I know feel like I cannot go on much longer as I feel I am treated as Guilty already. I have an appointment with the CAB tomorrow.

 

So I am in absolute, sympathy for you.

I will keep you updated and would love help off anyone please???

[hopefilly]

Hi

Sorry to hear you are going through the same thing. It is a nightmare and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

 

My ex got called in for his IUC today. I didn't think that he would go to it, but they sent the appointment letter to his work. He works as a caretaker at a Council School. So he went to tell them to stop sending letters to his place of employment. He has been here for about 2 hour this afternoon shouting and screaming at me about the fact that he might lose his job. I don't know what he expects me to do. I can't make them believe me and he is doing nothing to help.

He has basically told them that he is not claiming, therefore don't contact him again. I would not provide them with his address and told them it was none of there business as he is no fixed abode. Which I think he is lying about.

 

I really don't know where this leaves me now. I don't understand why he will not give me or them his address. The only reason I can think of is that he is staying somewhere, he shouldn't be. Maybe they are claiming !. I have tried everything to find out.

 

Again I am being held accountable for his actions. To them I am guilty, because without his address I must be. I suppose I just have to wait and see what happens next. Anyone know what I can expect next in this long drawn out process?

[MsCinderella]

I am now at "Apeal" Stage . I went to the CAB who are going to call me back tomorrow, because they dont know what to do for the appeal..!!! I thought they were supposed to help.! I am innocent but have to prove that my ex has not lived with me over the past ten years. He is an Awkward Ba%&*£d and cannot give ALL his addresses, saying some of his ex'x wont consent and another not having contact with him as she has married. I can see their point to be honest, I wouldnt want to help any of my ex's out.

 

So HOW can I prove He hasnt lived with me? I think the whole system has gone mad. whatever happened to Innocent until Proven Guilty.

 

What can I expect from the Appeal/Tribunal hearing..??

 

Has anyone been trhrough this yet?

 

I am feeling suicidal as I could not bear to go to Magistrates court... I have never had a speeding or parking ticket in my life...

 

I am at the stage of stopping all my benefit as it is so invasive into my life

I am a disabled person and have to be treated like this

 

WHERE is the justice..????:hurt:

[Nystagmite]

Is he on the electoral role?

[MsCinderella]

No he is not on my electoral register. I doubt he is on any other as he owed so much money when he left, he has been avoiding his debtors.

[hopefilly]

I can understand totally. I went to the CAB and didn't have much luck there. They just explained more or lees what has been explained on here. I have spoken to a solicitor who has told me that my best option to prove criminal innocence is, if they decided to prosecute, which to be honest I hope they do. At least under the law you are innocent until proven guilty. I have also been been told that if proven innocent in court it does not mean that the HB CT AND DSS will drop their seeking overpayment recovery. If the tribunal does not go my way. I can take out a civil case against them myself. But unfortunatly this is a long drawn out process.

 

All my benefit have already been stopped and I have recieved all the notices seeking repayments. But I have written asking for them to be put on hold until the appeals process is complete. I am still at the 'reconsideration' stage at the moment and although they told me on the phone this would take about a month, it has been well over that. Knowing what I know now about how they work, I don't give out much hope for that to go my way. So am more or less just waiting for their decision so I can get to the Tribunal Stage. Because on collecting all the information I have, it seem the only chance you have is when the decision making is taken from the benefits offices and place with independent authorities.

 

I was really upset, when all this first happen but to be honest all I am now is angry. It is disgusting how this system works and that the process take so long. They draw the whole thing out. While sending huge bills and basically telling you there is nothing you can do about it because you are 'probably' lying. It an appauling way to treat people. I have worked all my life, while bringing up my child and the one time I need help because of circumstance out of my control. I am told I am a liar.

 

I will keep posting here as the process continues because I do intend to take this all the way. I have 'not' do anything wrong except perhaps being a little nieve as to how much control the benefit system has over you life once you ask for help.

[hopefilly]

I have now received a reply from the Council regarding the balance that they say is owed to them. When the revised bill was first sent, I wrote to explain that it was issued due to the fact that the benefit office suspected fraud and that the outcome of that was not yet settled and it was still going through the investigation process. I also stated that I intended to appeal the decision as it was based on information provided by the benefits section. Information that I know is wrong. I enclosed a copy of the appeal statement

 

The reply that I received states:-

 

'You state in your letter that you have received revised notices dated 20th October 2011. I must advise these are due to recent amendment to your Council tax amount based on information provided to us by the benefit section, and as such a large amount has become due by 15th November 2011

Unfortunately, whilst an appeal is being dealt with all balances shown are still due and payable until a decision on you appeal is made. If no payments are received whilst the appeal is ongoing, further recovery action will be taken and you will be advised accordingly.'

 

It is unbelievable how they deal with things. First they are able to make a decision based on fiction and not fact. Secondly they have not even finished their investigation, yet they can revoke benefit that have previously been paid. Their appeals process takes months and they require payment in the meantime. (Blood and stone). They don't seem to understand that they have removed my ability to pay them.

 

I can only assume that Housing Benefit, JSA and ESA are all going to follow suit. I have a part time job, which at the moment just about covers my rent, with a little shortfall but enough to keep them at bay for a little while. If I stop paying that and lose my home. How are they going to attempt collect this money then?

 

You have to wonder how far they would be willing to go and how much they would be held accountable. What if Balliaffs remove goods, What if you go to prison for non payment? And then I win the appeal!!! I can only assume they have some clause that doesn't make them accountable for that either. It is laughable that our laws don't seem to apply to them.

 

If they had stopped my payment while the investigation was in process, that I could understand. Ok I would still be angry that it was something I hadn't done but I least I could understand it.

But to revise a bill for the last 3 years and bill me for that when they haven't even finished there investigation yet really is unbelievable. I am slowly running out of options as to how to keep everything a bay while waiting.

 

Is there any complaint procedure I can go through? They must be someone above these people, that they have to answer too.

[missblobby]

Hi Hopefilly

 

I relly do understand whst you are gpoing through, as i myself are going through the same right now. I ws cautioned in july re IS,HB and that i had a partner staying with me. I was married in 199? for only 4 months, becuae of personal reasons, i therefore just got on with my life as a single parent, however a few years later i bumped into my ex and from their stayed friends and in contact he is gay, married me thinking he could live a totally different life but knew he couldnt. He is now my best friend more like a brother at at times my son looked up to him as father figure. I am also disabled and have alot of health issues which over the past few years has got worse, he always visited as a friend , he had alot of bother at one of his rented flats, mail getting stolen tampered with etc and asked if he could use mine, i said yes thinking nothing of it and about 3 years ago did stay the odd night or 2 but only because of my health and issues i had, and to help with probs with my son, and this is how it went on, then a year ago my son turned to drugs etc doing me alot of harm and he starting coming over more and more but still only staying the odd night but because of this i did notify the council as i did not want to be seen doing anything wrong, he has had other partners and in a relationship for over 2 years and in another now but it wasnt till i went for a cautioned interview that i realised i wasnt even divorced, which i got done staright away, but even him having other tanancy agreements and partners they are now pursuing me for £14000 on IS alone dont know yet about the council. I too have considered ending my life as i have not seen myself as doing anything wrong....any advice would be appreciated

[Stressedandfedup]

With regards to these agencies getting their alleged overpayment back, they cannot send bailiffs until they have been to a magistrate's court for a liability order. To do that they have to send you official notification. If you get such a letter, immediately ask for a local hearing. That way you can attend and present your evidence to the magistrate. Don't inform the council/jcp of your evidence beforehand. If they don't have the evidence to prove you are guilty, then the court cannot find you guilty.

I used to work in the civil service and was told of a lady who was taken to court for benefit fraud because her ex said he still lived with her. She told the authorities that he stayed at most 2 nights in a week and not every week. They can't find you guilty just because you had a friend that visited you often. Ask your friend if he'd write a sworn statement for you to sent to the appeal/tribunal/ take to court.

The DWP/council has to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that you committed fraud. This is actually very hard for them to do in reality.

Another thing you may want to point out to them, is that it is not against any law to use another address for correspondence. It happens all the time and agencies like JCP and CSA use them. Your friend, if he's happy to write a statement for you can state the reason for using your address. It's a valid reason.

Good luck.

[Messydesk]

I really sympathise! I have been persued by my local council for an alleged overpayment of CTB in 1995/6/7 for the last five years.We had 11 Tribunal hearings where they were told to produce proper evidence and they failed. At the 12th the judge upheld my appeal on the grounds that they failed to make a case. Unbelievably they have just (five months on) started a new claim for exactly the same years and the same amounts, in exactly the same way. I have appealed and now I am told that they will need six months to send it to the tribunal - who are 18 months behind!!

This will be a total of at least seven years of worrying about this and nearly twenty years since the time they are backdating their claim to. Any ideas anyone???

[hopefilly]

As I have written in another post. I am going through an investigation for benefit fraud.

 

 

 

I spoke them today to ask about their complaints procedure and was told the investigation was not concluded yet.

 

So does that mean I cannot complain until the investigation is complete, although they can chase me for the overpayment before it is?

 

Surely the benefits agency cannot be totally governed by themselves? Who is there to complain to above the DWP. Is there an Independent Organization? They must surely have to answer to someone!!!

[jabba jones]

You can complain by writing to the Fraud Manager at the office dealing with your case.

 

However after reading your other thread I'm not sure what you expect to gain from this.

 

It appears the investigation has been conducted correctly & given the evidence they have, such as joint finances, the loan, question marks over his other addresses, his refusal to back you up, etc etc the benefit decision (which is based on probability) was inevitable.

 

The reason the investigation is still ongoing is that they will considering what action to take next. Whilst this could be a prosecution that would only be attempted if the departments solicitors believe they have evidence to prove the offence beyond all reasonable doubt.

[hopefilly]

I don't think I explained it very well. I don't want to complain to the Fraud Manager. The fraud team are just following the process and guideline that they are given.

 

Its the process itself that's a joke.The fact that they can work on probability and it can take 18 month to go to tribunal and until them you can do nothing. I was asking if the DWP are governed by anyone other than themselves.

 

How can something be inevitable if it is not true. As for joint finances our joint bank account was closed when he left. I agree that his sole bank statements continued to come here. The loan is in his name and and I have no connection and knowledge of that until they told me. I would have changed a lot of things If I had known what I know now. But like a lot of people I work on the basis of right and wrong. There is a probability of a lot of things. it doesn't make them true.

 

Thanks it was very helpful

[jabba jones]

If you want to complain about the procedure then your MP would be your best bet, but that is not going to change the decision that has been made on your claim/s.

 

My ex agreed to pay the insurance. It is my car and was brought after the split.

He's some joint finances. Take a step back for a moment & add that to all the other evidence they showed you during the IUC, then add in all the answers (or lack of them in some cases) you were able to give. This is what a decision maker see's

 

A decision maker has got to decide on the basis of probability what has happened. That is why I feel the decision against you was inevitable & why I think your time would be better spent preparing for your appeal hearing rather than writing complaints.

 

You know the evidence they have against you & that is what you are going to have to argue against/disprove at the appeal.

[Nystagmite]

it can take 18 month to go to tribunal

 

They have other cases to deal with.

[antone]

I don't think I explained it very well. I don't want to complain to the Fraud Manager. The fraud team are just following the process and guideline that they are given.

 

Its the process itself that's a joke.The fact that they can work on probability and it can take 18 month to go to tribunal and until them you can do nothing. I was asking if the DWP are governed by anyone other than themselves.

 

How can something be inevitable if it is not true. As for joint finances our joint bank account was closed when he left. I agree that his sole bank statements continued to come here. The loan is in his name and and I have no connection and knowledge of that until they told me. I would have changed a lot of things If I had known what I know now. But like a lot of people I work on the basis of right and wrong. There is a probability of a lot of things. it doesn't make them true.

 

Thanks it was very helpful

 

The point is that the DWP fraud assessors have to work on the basis of what's probable because it isn't their job to determine what's true. That's the job of a court - the DWP assessors simply decide whether it's worth presenting the evidence to a court in the first place. Or, in the case of an appealed non-criminal overpayment, to the Tribunal.

 

So I agree with you, basically - assuming the facts are as you have presented here, I don't think that you have committed any offence. But I can't be too harsh on the DWP fraud team. There's enough there to warrant an investigation.

 

To answer your basic question, ultimately the DWP answers to Parliament which, in theory at least, answers to us. So if your complaint is about policy, procedure or the law, it's best to speak to your MP. However, it is also possible to complain if you feel you have not been treated correctly by the DWP, and their complaints procedure is detailed in this leaflet, which is a PDF document. As it mentions, there are independent review bodies, but you should follow the DWP internal processes first.

[Messydesk]

I agree with eevryone who says that they feel they are being found guilty until they can (if they can) prove themselves innocent. The benefits department at my local council is actually called the "Benefits and Fraud" department!! I must share a quote from the latest letter to me from my local council - just to make you smile.

" We are drawing adverse inference from the fact that you have failed to disclose everything which we feel you should have disclosed to us (goodness only knows what it is!!) and we are therefore ascribing a notional income of £32,000 to you for that year." My golly working as a notional must be good pay - the fact that I seriously physically disabled and have been unable to work for years seem to have escaped their notice in the five years this has been going on.

 

Fight on anyone who believes they are in the right as I do - council's have got to get their facts right before they give us a hard time. I have actually won the cse at Tribunal and they have reissued on the same grounds. Can't wait for the moment I ask for it to be struck out!!

[BigGreenForest]

I agree with eevryone who says that they feel they are being found guilty until they can (if they can) prove themselves innocent. The benefits department at my local council is actually called the "Benefits and Fraud" department!! I must share a quote from the latest letter to me from my local council - just to make you smile.

" We are drawing adverse inference from the fact that you have failed to disclose everything which we feel you should have disclosed to us (goodness only knows what it is!!) and we are therefore ascribing a notional income of £32,000 to you for that year." My golly working as a notional must be good pay - the fact that I seriously physically disabled and have been unable to work for years seem to have escaped their notice in the five years this has been going on.

 

Fight on anyone who believes they are in the right as I do - council's have got to get their facts right before they give us a hard time. I have actually won the cse at Tribunal and they have reissued on the same grounds. Can't wait for the moment I ask for it to be struck out!!

 

I dont really understand any of that in that letter you quoted, it sounds like they're at a loss what to do, so made something up to suit themselves?

it's awful to see how many people are having such hell for reasons like this through no real fault of their own across various threads. I still can't help but be pessemistic about my problems, and feel that the worst is going to happen. I do have depression and paranoid sessions yes, but even without them, i'm sure i'd feel the same.

[my2beautys]

I am going through very similar, I have two children 2 and 4 if it wasn't for them I'd have given up, I have now been told today that my case is being passed to solicitor to consider prosecution even though I am still waiting on tribunal hearing,

I'm being done because I let my children's dad use my address because he was 'sofa surfing' and knew he would receive stuff as he came to see children every night.

It arose suspicion in 2009 and I was spot checked in my house and cleared but now there going back to 2008 but nothing is different how can I be cleared in 2009 but now in 2011 there saying that doesn't matter.

I'm seriously scared I'm getting letters demanding repayments on hb an is I've already been taken to court to secure the debt for council tax