ross123 - query for Old CoDja please

[ross123]

My situation is next. I was traveling from station “A” national rail station and there are no barriers and in a rush to Victoria station in the morning to catch my train I forgot to tap my Oyster (I had plenty of money on it) and when I arrived to underground station “B” (which is two stops away from “A”) I tapped there and the TFL representative stopped me, he showed me his badge and asked for my oyster. I gave him, then he checked, and asked which station I am travelling from I told him from station “A”. He asked me why I didn't type, so I responded that I got confused where tap as I was overcharged when I was tapping three times during my previous journey from station “A”. Then he checked my previous travels which I did from (entering from) “B” underground station and he asked if I traveled yesterday I replied yes.

Then he started to question me, I was shocked and panicked and said whether I can pay the fine now, and he responded no and continued to question me and put everything in his notebook. Then he asked my name and I told him my correct name, then he asked if I have an id I said no, then he said that he might invite the police to check me I said that I have my old student card and gave him he took it and recorded it. Then he asked for my address and I gave him full address. Then he called on phone to someone, probably to confirm my address. Then I asked him again if I can pay the fine at the place and he responded no.

After that he gave my Oyster back and said that I will receive a letter in 3-4 weeks and that's it. I want to say that on that spot everyday at least 5-10 people have been stopped and fined or interrogated, and to be honest it looks for me as it became a “tourist trap” to anyone who made a mistake and lots of people are being unfairly fined.

Now the thing is I generally travel from “B” station and all my recording show that I start from there and always complete my journey. The thing is that it turns out that if you tap at “B” inside the station it shows that you entered in “B” station. Now I don't know if they include my previous travels from “B” station as a way that I have been evading previously. So I am seeking for your advice concerning next please.

 

1. Would you recommend to call TFL prosecution office and plead them to settle the case?

2. By your opinion can I plead not guilty in my case for the reason that I was rushing to Victoria to catch a train (I have a copy of my tickets to Victoria train for that day)?

3. Should I plead guilty, and if, will I get Criminal Record?

4. I work in international development sector, mainly with charities and human rights organizations, does this incident affect on my job?

5. What happens if I plead not guilty and how much chances I have in my case to win?

6. Can TFL reason that my travels that I did from (entered from) “B” station can be considered as a fare evasion?

7. In addition, I was previously fined in 2008 or 2009 (don’t remember exactly) and it was my first time travelling in London and didn't see the tapping machine and I appealed but they refused and I still paid 25 pounds, can this incident affect to my present one?

 

Please reply as you would think is most probably happen in my case, and what would be best to do for me.

[Old-CodJA]

I will certainly not give out my personal email address and I notice that you have posted the whole query as a private message too. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't respond to this in that way.

 

I will comment on this post if you or the site team can move it to a thread of it's own please.

 

I think this is really a fairly general enquiry, very similar to many others and perhaps any comments by contibutors to the forum may help someone else too, but such replies are unlikely to be found under this title and it has nothing to do with Court procedure.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I expect you will have more detailed replies from the guys here when they can get to the forum.

 

1. In the meantime, I do know that there is no point in contacting TfL until you have their letter and a reference number for your case. If you ring before this, they won't be able to find your papers.

 

My best, HB

[Gbarbm]

Hi Ross123, as honeybee says wait until you get the letter from TfL and try not to worry too much in the meantime. Your error was not a deliberate one you made a mistake it happens you'll probably end up paying a fine at worst

[maroondevo52]

Two threads merged.

 

ross123, I have unapproved your duplicate post and merged replies to this thread, please continue to post here regarding this issue.

 

Thanks.

 

Scott.

[Grotesque]

Spell the brother's name right at least! Lol, etc etc.

[maroondevo52]

Spell the brother's name right at least! Lol, etc etc.

 

OP started the thread, not me, spelling looks ok in my post I'll add an 's' to the title, problem solved

[Old-CodJA]

I want to say that on that spot everyday at least 5-10 people have been stopped and fined or interrogated, and to be honest it looks for me as it became a “tourist trap” to anyone who made a mistake and lots of people are being unfairly fined.

Now the thing is I generally travel from “B” station and all my recording show that I start from there and always complete my journey. The thing is that it turns out that if you tap at “B” inside the station it shows that you entered in “B” station. Now I don't know if they include my previous travels from “B” station as a way that I have been evading previously. So I am seeking for your advice concerning next please.

 

1. Would you recommend to call TFL prosecution office and plead them to settle the case?

2. By your opinion can I plead not guilty in my case for the reason that I was rushing to Victoria to catch a train (I have a copy of my tickets to Victoria train for that day)?

3. Should I plead guilty, and if, will I get Criminal Record?

4. I work in international development sector, mainly with charities and human rights organizations, does this incident affect on my job?

5. What happens if I plead not guilty and how much chances I have in my case to win?

6. Can TFL reason that my travels that I did from (entered from) “B” station can be considered as a fare evasion?

7. In addition, I was previously fined in 2008 or 2009 (don’t remember exactly) and it was my first time travelling in London and didn't see the tapping machine and I appealed but they refused and I still paid 25 pounds, can this incident affect to my present one?

 

Please reply as you would think is most probably happen in my case, and what would be best to do for me.

 

 

Firstly, let me say that you should do nothing until you get a letter from TfL.

 

Now, this appears to be a regular revenue barrier exercise, not 'tourist trap' as you call it and if you did not tap in an Oyster at A but travelled to B without a ticket, then you have avoided the fare between those two points.

 

Yes, if you were fined by a Court in the recent past as you suggest, they may refer to this IF they decide to prosecute

 

You appear to have sent me the whole original post again as a PM. Please stick to posting on this thread and we can respond for everyone else to see. That way, something may be of use to someone else.

 

Come back and post again when you get a letter and tell us what it says.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[ross123]

Thank you for you advises.

 

I have received my letter from them recently and it is saying that they are giving me an opportunity to explain and comment about the incident. I haven't sent them my letter back and going to say that I am admitting that I failed to pay my fair and asking them to let me pay the fine and settle the case, and I told them that I was in the rush and thus forgot to tap my oyster. I am also including my ticket to my train at Victoria st that I was rushing to catch.

 

So what is your opinion? Will they give me an opportunity to settle the case? Should I call them and ask to settle the case?

 

p.s. I haven't been fined by court before. I just paid my fine immediately when I was fined in 2008 and thus the case was stopped.

[honeybee13]

Hello ross123.

 

Thank you for the PMs, but as OC has already said the forum is the place for questions. I'm afraid I'm not one of the transport gurus, so you need to wait until someone in the know arrives on the forum to suggest what you should do.

 

I hope someone will be along soon.

 

My best, HB

[Old-CodJA]

Thank you for you advises.

 

I have received my letter from them recently and it is saying that they are giving me an opportunity to explain and comment about the incident. I haven't sent them my letter back and going to say that I am admitting that I failed to pay my fair and asking them to let me pay the fine and settle the case, and I told them that I was in the rush and thus forgot to tap my oyster. I am also including my ticket to my train at Victoria st that I was rushing to catch.

 

So what is your opinion? Will they give me an opportunity to settle the case? Should I call them and ask to settle the case?

 

p.s. I haven't been fined by court before. I just paid my fine immediately when I was fined in 2008 and thus the case was stopped.

 

You can send any evidence that you consider helps your argument. The TOC ticket to/from Victoria isn't relevant to the Oyster journey, but may support your claim that you normally pay fares however, an earlier Penalty Fare on record would show it wasn't a 'one-off'.

 

All you can do is ensure that your letter appears genuine and hope that you are given a sympathetic response.

 

No-one on here can guarantee what the TfL prosecution unit will do, but a genuine apology and offer to pay any reasonable administration costs plus the outstanding fare will be given due consideration.

[ross123]

You can send any evidence that you consider helps your argument. The TOC ticket to/from Victoria isn't relevant to the Oyster journey, but may support your claim that you normally pay fares however, an earlier Penalty Fare on record would show it wasn't a 'one-off'.

 

All you can do is ensure that your letter appears genuine and hope that you are given a sympathetic response.

 

No-one on here can guarantee what the TfL prosecution unit will do, but a genuine apology and offer to pay any reasonable administration costs plus the outstanding fare will be given due consideration.

 

Thank you for your response. So you think there is a chance that they might settle the case? What about if I call them? Will it work?

Another question for example if they anyway would want to proceed with court, and if I am pleading guilty anyway is there any point to present at court or not since I am admitting that I am guilty?

[Old-CodJA]

I don't want to appear rude and I realise that you are keen to resolve this, but you need to realise that yours is just one of many hundreds of cases that the TfL team will be handling every week. Try to take a little time, don't pressurise yourself or the TfL team.

 

In my experience, those who ring in demanding immediate resolution of their case will be less likely to succeed. You can ring in, but don't be surprised if they will not give a decision over the 'phone.

 

A well worded letter and prompt apology might well work. If not, Magistrates always reserve the greatest credit for those who attend Court, plead guilty and say sorry

[ross123]

I don't want to appear rude and I realise that you are keen to resolve this, but you need to realise that yours is just one of many hundreds of cases that the TfL team will be handling every week. Try to take a little time, don't pressurise yourself or the TfL team.

 

In my experience, those who ring in demanding immediate resolution of their case will be less likely to succeed. You can ring in, but don't be surprised if they will not give a decision over the 'phone.

 

A well worded letter and prompt apology might well work. If not, Magistrates always reserve the greatest credit for those who attend Court, plead guilty and say sorry

 

I see. Thank you for you significant help. Just what I thought as well that there is no point in calling.

[cletus1]

I am a little confused you enter station "A" a nation rail station and fail to touch in on arrival at station "b" an underground station you touch out so at this point you have been charged £10 on your oyster and have an unresolved journey

 

Or did you try to get out at station "b" without touching out ?

 

 

Is the interface between the Underground and network rail gated ? IE do you have to go out of a set of gates for NR and then back in a set of gates to the underground

Does the history on your oyster show you normally touch in at your home station, and is this the same station you have told the inspector you traveld from that day?

Edited November 6, 2011 by cletus1

[ross123]

I am a little confused you enter station "A" a nation rail station and fail to touch in on arrival at station "b" an underground station you touch out so at this point you have been charged £10 on your oyster and have an unresolved journey

 

Or did you try to get out at station "b" without touching out ?

 

 

Is the interface between the Underground and network rail gated ? IE do you have to go out of a set of gates for NR and then back in a set of gates to the underground

Does the history on your oyster show you normally touch in at your home station, and is this the same station you have told the inspector you traveld from that day?

 

There is no gates at station A, its just a tapping machine. When you arrive to station B there is no gates as well but only again tapping machine. So there is no gates between these two stations. My history shows that I enter from station B, which I normally do always. But that day I entered from station A and told him that I was confused and rushed to catch my train and didn't tap.

[ross123]

I am a little confused you enter station "A" a nation rail station and fail to touch in on arrival at station "b" an underground station you touch out so at this point you have been charged £10 on your oyster and have an unresolved journey

 

Or did you try to get out at station "b" without touching out ?

 

 

Is the interface between the Underground and network rail gated ? IE do you have to go out of a set of gates for NR and then back in a set of gates to the underground

Does the history on your oyster show you normally touch in at your home station, and is this the same station you have told the inspector you traveld from that day?

 

There is no gates at station A, its just a tapping machine. When you arrive to station B there is no gates as well but only again tapping machine. So there is no gates between these two stations. My history shows that I enter from station B, which I normally do always. But that day I entered from station A and told him that I was confused and rushed to catch my train and didn't tap.

[cletus1]

So when you normally enter from station "b" where do you exit? Is it station "a"?

On the day in question did you touch out at station "B" I understand you did not touch in at station "a" this will still result in an unresolved journey

[cletus1]

The point of this being if you end up with an unresolved journey (not touching both in and out) this could have cost you more than the fare... and would support your case that it was an error

 

 

However the TOC may claim you may have travelled further than you say you had!

And if you normally travel every day from station "b" to station "y" which is on the same line but right down the other end .. this will not help your case !

Edited November 6, 2011 by cletus1

[ross123]

The point of this being if you end up with an unresolved journey (not touching both in and out) this could have cost you more than the fare... and would support your case that it was an error

 

Yeah I understand. It is just turns out that I tapped at interchange tapping machine. But well I was honest and going to say that I am guilty and did it for this and that reason. I am going to ask them to give me a chance to pay them their admin cost and the fine so it will save them their time and will save me from the stress. Well if they would want to save their time and would consider this they will agree, unless they are really want to bring this court and really want me to get a record. Anyway in both cases I don't see any point if they bring me to the court and charge me or charge me now without court, unless they really want me to teach a lesson which I have learned already. Anyway, they are people and hope they have sense of understanding of other people. We will see. Anyway I have stressed enough and not worried any more, it is not worse of it. I have other stuff to worry, it is not the end of the era ))

 

Thank you for all of you for support and kind advises and wish you enjoy your Christmas!!!

[ross123]

I read one case when a person went and they settled the case? What about if I call them? I know you already answered but still? And what are the chances that they will settle the case? I wrote on the back of the letter asking to accept my apology and offered to pay any admin costs and the fine.

[Old-CodJA]

I'm afraid that the only answer I can give is just as I said in the answer I gave to your PM.

 

You can only ask, if the company decide not to accept your request, that is their prerogative. If they believe that there is evidence to support the allegation of an offence, they have the right to pursue that through Court action.

 

No-one can give you any definitive assurance on here that they will allow a settlement, but you can keep asking right up until any matter is put before the Court.

 

YOU will have to give the company a compelling reason to agree to your request for any chance of success

[ross123]

Good day everyone.

 

Recently got a mail back from the Prosecution Unit and I though "ok I am in a trouble" and expected that they will in a good scenario charge me 300-400 pounds, but I was happy to find out that they agreed to my offer and offered to settle the case by paying the outstanding fare and fare cost, which in total was less than 100 pounds. I immediately paid via phone and now I am freeman )))

 

I would like to thank for all your assistance and you significant help and thank you for this website for helping people, and my special respect and gratitude to Old-CodJA, man you rock!

 

Best regards to all,

 

p.s. If anyone will be in trouble as I was you may ask my experience and I will be happy to suggest.

 

I'm afraid that the only answer I can give is just as I said in the answer I gave to your PM.

 

You can only ask, if the company decide not to accept your request, that is their prerogative. If they believe that there is evidence to support the allegation of an offence, they have the right to pursue that through Court action.

 

No-one can give you any definitive assurance on here that they will allow a settlement, but you can keep asking right up until any matter is put before the Court.

 

YOU will have to give the company a compelling reason to agree to your request for any chance of success

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for your unnecessary kindness ross123, I'm pleased that you got the result that you were hoping for