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Been asked to pay back a short till?


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I used to work in a pub where the tills were down (i.e., didn't have as much money in them as the computer thought they should) and the staff were told they had to pay the money back amongst themselves.

 

If any company asks you to do this, and it is not laid down in your contract, then do not do it. I spoke to the head office of the pub I was working for (A John Barras pub, part of the Spirit Group who I recommend you never give your patronage to, if you have a choice) who told me that it was not "standard practice". I got suspicious when my manager told me to pay the money back in cash and when I asked her to take it out of my wages (so I didn't end up being taxed twice on the money) she told me she couldn't do it!

 

If anyone who is given more power by the system than you does anything that seems a bit illegal, it probably is - challenge them!

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Have a look at this:

 

Special Rules For Retail Workers

 

There are special rules relating to cash shortages or stock deficiencies for people working in retail employment (shop workers, bar staff etc.). If you are involved in selling or supplying goods to the public or fellow workers, or receiving money in this capacity, these rules apply to you. They apply even if you only do so on odd occasions, or are not directly involved in the sale or supply of goods, but handle money. For example, a cashier working in a staff canteen could be covered by these rules.

Maximum deductions for retail workers

If your employer has reached agreement with you, either in writing or in your contract, that a deduction can be made for shortages, then s/he must: -

  • notify you in writing of the total amount owed before taking any money.
  • make a demand in writing for payment on a pay day.
  • any demand must not exceed 10% of the gross amount of that pay packet because of shortages, although similar deductions can be made from future pay packets. (Note: the 10% restriction does not apply to deductions from a final pay packet).
  • make any such deductions within twelve months of discovering the shortages.

What does this mean in practice?

If you are a shop worker selling goods, and your contract of employment allows your employer to recover till cash shortfalls, then your employer must first let you know of the shortfall and the full amount owing. The maximum your employer can take from one pay packet is 10% of your gross pay (i.e before Income Tax and National Insurance). For example, if there is a shortfall of £50, and your employer pays you £100 per week, the maximum s/he can take from your weekly salary is £10, until the shortfall is repaid (ie. in this example it would take five weeks for you to repay the shortfall to your employer).

NB: If you leave your job, and a shortfall is owed the 10% rule does NOT apply.

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I'm going back nearly 20 years but I used to drive for the local council bus company. Any shortfall of the money taken on any particular day was taken out of our wages.

 

Although this was in our contract, there was no prior notification. What particularly annoyed me was that if you were "up", you didn't get the money back - they argued that it wasn't your money, we argued that it wasn't theirs either! Eventually they did concede that if you were up, the difference would be deducted.

 

What was particularly galling was that at times you could have been £20 or so down on the day - almost impossible, you would have to make a LOT of mistakes to be even a couple of pounds down, but this happened regularly. Averaging between £5-£10 down per week was not unusual.

I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice! :)

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i work for a company were we still write out contracts with customers and so on occasion the maths let us down or we write down the wrong price for the goods on the sales contract.

 

do these rules still apply in this case?

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I use to run pubs and yes if the tills where down the employees had to make the money up. I did not think it was fair that I took the till print out , took the till away , counted the money and it was on my word alone decided if people lost a part of their wages.I can not see a manager lying about a till shortage but sometimes I had to work 17 hour days so by the time it came to counting tills mistakes can be made .I always counted the tills infront of a member of staff who had worked on it and if it was short they was given the chance to count it themselves.I would advise anyone who is being asked to make up the shortfalls on a till, on a regular basis, to demand to be there when the tills are checked.

When you want to fool the world, tell the truth. :D

Advice & opinions of Janet-M are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any

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  • 1 month later...
How dare they even ask! It's not you problem if their till is short unless it's your business

 

What if the person on the till had stolen the amount that was short? Why should

the employer stand for that shortage? And every time there is a shortage, that

thought is on the employers mind. But it is usually very difficult to prove.

Over the course of a year, if the staff are honest, then the shorts and overs shouldn't be that far out. However there will always be more shortages as if you short change someone, they will invariably notice. But while they may also notice

that they have been overpaid, they don't always mention it! In any event, any

overall shortages will be offset against their taxable income.

On another point, I cannot believe that anyone who was not present during the cashing up

would be expected to make up any shortfall.

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My Wife used to work in a petrol station.

 

If anyone did a "drive-off" without paying, then the money was deducted from her wages.

Also, if someone had gone a bit over the amount of fuel, eg, £10.01, quite often the customer assumed they could just pay the £10.00. If the odd penny was asked for, sometimes the customer became abusive and insulting."Well, it's only a penny"!

The garage was in a very busy area and at the end of the week, all the odd pennies added up to quite a lot.Think about this next time you buy your fuel. You may not be the only one that day to have done this.

This was also deducted from the wage.

 

One day, a customer left his money as he was in a rush and there was a big queue.

When my wife checked, he had given her a £20 note for £10 of fuel.

She was honest and told the manager.

Guess what, she didnt get to keep it.

 

When the till was down, she had to pay.

When it was over, the owners of the garage kept it.

 

Buzz

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Bookworm's "Special Rules" post is intersting and informative here, but it would also be interesting to test it in a court of law.

 

I agree that if the till is short it should not necessarily be your loss any more than if you are "up" it does not belong to the company. What happens when you "cash up" and find your till to be correct but then somebody comes back to you later and says it wasn't? Why should a company be allowed to take the money from your wages when the loss is now disputed?

 

For those working in petrol stations (or anywhere really) it's almost impossible to verify. Typically money is put into a container and put into a slot which drops it into a locked safe.

 

So what if you work the nightshift, finish at 7 a.m. and are then on holiday for a fortnight? The only way that the money could be verified in your presence is if the safe remains unopened for the next two weeks! If it's short you only have their word for it.

I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice! :)

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  • 1 month later...

I've always found a fairer way is that if a till is over the extra is kept - in case the customer returns and can prove well enough that it's theirs.

 

If no-one returns//proves it - usual then the money is kept in a kitty. The kitty is used to make up the unders on a rolling basis.

 

Obviously if a till is regularly down by a biggish amount when one particular person is on, then there's something fishy. Good management should be able to track that.

BoS:- D P A sent 09/06 Prelim. request 29/06 £1755 plus interest

1st claim Filed 5/10/06 SETTLED 19/10 £747.80 plus £534.31 interest

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I've always found a fairer way is that if a till is over the extra is kept - in case the customer returns and can prove well enough that it's theirs.

 

If no-one returns//proves it - usual then the money is kept in a kitty. The kitty is used to make up the unders on a rolling basis.

 

Obviously if a till is regularly down by a biggish amount when one particular person is on, then there's something fishy. Good management should be able to track that.

Sensible, and fair thinking, Giveitback.

 

I worked in a bar when I was a student many years ago. I could never understand why I had to take part responsibility for mistakes someone else had made - we all had to cover the shortfall between us and wages were low. Those were the days before bells-and-whistles tills that did all the adding up for you, and you needed to be able to do mental arithmetic or at least have a pencil and pad handy to add a large order up. There were staff taken on who could barely add two orders together let alone six. Why they got taken on beats me. Made me wild, especially as my maths was good! So I left.

5% to the site. What goes around comes around.

:wink:

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Used to work in a nightclub in Bangor, they never made anyone pay for till shortages, but were more concerned when the till was up...especially when £10 - £20 up

In my niavety..I queried, "well surely thats a good thing?"

Appently, not!

That then meant that they suspected the til worker of not ringing in certain rounds,(Especially when told to keep the change and given £10 exactly etc) but then had not had the chance to take that money out....

Wow...I was scared of being up or down! no penalties... just a stern staring at!!

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Guest Zooman

It is the employees resonability to ensurer the till reconciles this is a more then fair representation of the traditional contract (ie. you do your job and we will pay you correctly on time every time). And for your information you can not claim tax off set on missing money (tax avoidance other wise every company in the land would be missing money) under any circumstances, you pay tax on sales regardless if you have been paid or not.

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I'm going to play Devil's Advokate here.

 

Can anyone quote the Act of Parliment or Case Law that says this is true?

 

I can understand to a degree they can do this if they have written a clause into your contract. However, remember you still have the Unfair Terms in Contracts you can rely upon.

 

When I was a kid and worked at a well known chain of supermarkets, there used to be a £10 margin of error on the tills plus or minus.

 

I think it is reasonable to assume that due to human error there will always be a 'reasonable' error. Of course, £10 is one thing - another amount - say £100 is completely different.

 

FP

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Way back when, Maccy D's used to do a £1 leeway before reprimands. Of course, staff got this whether they'd taken £30 or £3000 that day, and when you're busy, you're more likely to make mistakes.

BoS:- D P A sent 09/06 Prelim. request 29/06 £1755 plus interest

1st claim Filed 5/10/06 SETTLED 19/10 £747.80 plus £534.31 interest

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Way back when, Maccy D's used to do a £1 leeway before reprimands.

 

Aye. When I worked there before trudging off to Uni (only to leave 4 years later without a degree! :oops: ), I managed to finish one day 95p up, to have the manager say "Oooh, you're lucky there Mr. Again. 5p more and I'd have had to record it." Small differences over £1 weren't a big deal, but they were recorded. The rule was that if you were over £1 out three times, you were down for retraining. (Of course, if you were out by £40, as a colleague of mine was, it's rather a different story) I asked what the procedure for retraining was, and the shift manager told me "I ask you if you've been retrained satisfactorily, and you say 'yes, sir'." :)

HSBCLloyds TSBcontractual interestNew Tax Creditscoming for you?NTL/Virgin Media

 

Never give in ... Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Churchill, 1941

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  • 4 months later...
Guest Battleaxe

Crikey,

 

This is news to me about shortages having to be made up by staff. I am sure this is not legal, but then again there are a lot of things happening over here that are not allowed by law where I come from and one is till shortages being made up by staff.

 

Oh yes I did work as a counter jumper for G J Coles, Walton Sears and in a pub and never did I have to make up shortages when they occurred, not that it was a regular feature and if I was over, I certainly had some explaining to do. That happened once when I forgot to ring up the drinks and put the money straight into the till.

 

I was thinking about applying for a part time job as a check out chick around at the local co-op but I think I will give it a miss if this is the practice.

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Have a look at this:

 

Special Rules For Retail Workers

 

There are special rules relating to cash shortages or stock deficiencies for people working in retail employment (shop workers, bar staff etc.). If you are involved in selling or supplying goods to the public or fellow workers, or receiving money in this capacity, these rules apply to you. They apply even if you only do so on odd occasions, or are not directly involved in the sale or supply of goods, but handle money. For example, a cashier working in a staff canteen could be covered by these rules.

Maximum deductions for retail workers

If your employer has reached agreement with you, either in writing or in your contract, that a deduction can be made for shortages, then s/he must: -

  • notify you in writing of the total amount owed before taking any money.
  • make a demand in writing for payment on a pay day.
  • any demand must not exceed 10% of the gross amount of that pay packet because of shortages, although similar deductions can be made from future pay packets. (Note: the 10% restriction does not apply to deductions from a final pay packet).
  • make any such deductions within twelve months of discovering the shortages.

What does this mean in practice?

If you are a shop worker selling goods, and your contract of employment allows your employer to recover till cash shortfalls, then your employer must first let you know of the shortfall and the full amount owing. The maximum your employer can take from one pay packet is 10% of your gross pay (i.e before Income Tax and National Insurance). For example, if there is a shortfall of £50, and your employer pays you £100 per week, the maximum s/he can take from your weekly salary is £10, until the shortfall is repaid (ie. in this example it would take five weeks for you to repay the shortfall to your employer).

NB: If you leave your job, and a shortfall is owed the 10% rule does NOT apply.

 

Is it possible to give me a link/source for this quote please? I work for an employer who's policy is to deduct shortages from employees wages, but who doesn't quite follow these 'rules'.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

Jimbo 44 - always happy to help, but always willing to learn from being corrected too!!! Whilst any advice given may be based upon personal experience, please always be sure you seek guidance from a professional in the particular field.

 

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark, but a large group of professionals built the Titanic.

 

A 'click' on the scales is always appreciated if I have helped. Many Thanks!

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Lloyds TSB, Total Charges £900, Claim Filed for £1379 - Settled

 

Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card, Total Charges £90 - Settled.

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Jimbo 44 - always happy to help, but always willing to learn from being corrected too!!! Whilst any advice given may be based upon personal experience, please always be sure you seek guidance from a professional in the particular field.

 

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark, but a large group of professionals built the Titanic.

 

A 'click' on the scales is always appreciated if I have helped. Many Thanks!

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Care to post your situation, Jimbo? I've worked at a few places where this practice has gone on, and I've always thought it to be very unfair.

 

Very briefly, I work as a D/C (Driver/Conductor) for a bus company and the repayment of 'Shorts & Overs' is a part of our contracts. I should say that it works both ways too! We're charged for being 'short' when we pay-in, but we're re-imbursed when we pay-in too much ('overs') as well.

 

The point of my request for a link to Bookworm's quote was that the employer is sometimes a bit 'lax and haphazard' in notifying us of the amounts we are to be charged/re-imbursed and this is the first time I've ever seen actual published 'regulations' covering this.

 

I'm also a shop steward and the reason for my interest is more to do with this aspect (making sure the employer adheres to the regulations) than to do with personal circumstances. I'm usually 'on the button' when I pay-in at the end of the day's work.

 

I'm not so sure I'd agree on the 'unfairness' aspect though.....but that's another story which depends a lot on the circumstances and type of employment!

Jimbo 44 - always happy to help, but always willing to learn from being corrected too!!! Whilst any advice given may be based upon personal experience, please always be sure you seek guidance from a professional in the particular field.

 

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark, but a large group of professionals built the Titanic.

 

A 'click' on the scales is always appreciated if I have helped. Many Thanks!

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In my case, if I had ever been asked to pay back a short till at a certain unnamed retailer, it would have been unfair. Shift changes were confusing and we were rarely given a 'fresh' till, ie. a counted one for individual members of staff. Tills were not cashed up in front of us before or after shifts, and managers could come up at a moments' notice to 'just put this quickly through the till', be it a refund or a transaction or an esoteric process in between. How am I supposed to keep a precise track of money in my till with all this going on?

Conversely, if I had been asked to pay back a short till at a different unnamed retailer, I would have had no problem - I had cash office responsibility too and would make sure it was counted out, the cashier was present to collect it, one cashier per till, then it was counted up at EOD again with cashier present.

I suppose it all depends on retailers' practices, but there's always a difference between documented practices and 'actual' or, as I like to say, 'shopfloor' practices...

-----

Click the scales if I've been useful! :)

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Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 3988 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

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