Southwest Trains penalty fare appeal

[Feeney007]

I wonder if anyone has had the same situation happen to me - I travelled from Clapham Junction, on a Southwest train to Waterloo, transferred to the underground to get to Leceister Sq. Less than an hour later I did the reverse journey back to Clapham Junction. At each stage I had been swiping my oystercard which is on pay-as-you-go and the barriers had opened. I do not always check the balance each time I swipe my card and occasionally it'll beep in which case I turn around go to a topup machine and put money on my card before exiting. In this particular case I was in a hurry to catch the next train so didn't look down as I swiped it, just went through the barriers when they opened. This was a journey midday on a Thursday, there was not a rush of people trying to get on the train to CJ at Waterloo, and when I was alone when I entered the barriers.

 

However! When I tried to exit at Clapham Junction it beeped so say there was no money on it. I approached a guard to say 'what do I do? there's no where to put money on'. He takes my card, swipes it on his machine, asks me (none too politely) where I came from. When I say Waterloo he starts his rant, 'no you didn't, it's impossible' yada yada. Me saying that 'it is possible, I just came from there where I swiped my Oystercard, and the barriers opened' fell on deaf ears. He accused me of following somebody else through the barriers (there was no one around) or having come from elsewhere as his machine didn't show a Waterloo journey that day at all. He got his colleague involved to back him up who also came full of hostile behaviour saying I had not been at Waterloo since the Sat before. Extremely odd as I had just come from there! But furthermore I had done the exact same trip the night before, none of which shows up on their machine.

 

Apparently my card didn't just show a negative balance it was -£2.40...meaning it had a zero balance when I got on at Waterloo. This stepped up their hostility a notch and I was told I'd have to pay a penalty fare. The balance being that negative should be, as the collector said, impossible but obviously there is some sort of glitch when travelling between National Rail and underground at Waterloo and again when travelling the return journey within such a short period of time. None of my recent journeys showed on their machine so I only uncovered the oddity when I got the paper receipt off my card a few days later.

 

I was not trying to fare dodge and evade paying. If I had known there was no credit on my card at Waterloo, I would have topped it up there and then, but the card allowed me to enter. Long story slightly shorter, the collector got his colleague to frog march me down to the ATM (as their debit card machine wasn't working) so I could get £20 out as they required me to pay before exiting the station. I was not allowed to take the penalty fare notice without paying unless I had proof of name/address on me. I had ID, but don't routinely carry proof of address when I pop out to do an errand. I was absolutely shaken by the experience of being shouted at and treated like I was trying to evade paying when I had done nothing but do as they asked. This is all occuring in front of a busy station of people. It was like they were bored and waiting for a fight to spice up their day! Absolutely no customer relations skills whatsoever.

 

I have appealed the penalty fare and wondered how long the process normally takes until you hear back? From the reading I have done since I am assuming mine will be rejected as I did not read all the legal jargon and list explicity where the penalty fare process had not been followed. From what I have read now I'm not sure what I would have put anyway! I would have topped up at Waterloo but did not realise as the machine allow me to continue my journey when it shouldn't have?! As far as I was aware I was travelling on a valid card?

 

The Oyster card receipt which shows my journey from CJ - Waterloo - Leceister Sq and reverse less than an hour later. It shows a zero balance at Waterloo, but the gates still opened. Because I was travelling within such a short period of time, has it taken it all to be one journey, and charged differently? I do not see how it should be possible for my card to get to -£2.40 when the fare from Waterloo to CJ is £1.90.

 

Unfortunately I didn't have the receipt at the time I did my online appeal - is there any way I can forward it on to IRCAS as evidence?

 

Are the station collectors always this rough and hostile? I understand that it's 'guilty until proven innocent' in the case of penalty fares but that you don't look any different from a fare dodger but I (a mild mid 20s female) was left absolutely shaken and upset by the whole thing. I thought they would have received customer relations training in how to deal with people and had the nouse to at least realise after dealing with me for a few minutes that I wasn't trying to dodge the penalty fare and just give me it to me without all the extra upsetting hostile behaviour.

 

Many thanks for any advice/comments.

[Stigy]

Firstly, Penalty Fares are not meant for fare evaders, they are a deterrant against fare evasion. From what you've said about the staff accusing you of tailgating through the barriers at Waterloo, I'm surprised they didn't report you to their Prosecutions Department. I think it's the staff being lazy more than anything, but hey ho! If you've appealed the Penalty Fare within 21-days it shouldn't take long to hear back from IRCAS (couple of weeks or so?). The very fact that you have before got to a barrier and realised there's been no credit on the card, turned around and topped up, suggests that you don't really know how the system works. If you have been doing this before exiting after having finished your rail journey, I'm surprised you haven't come a cropper before now, as this definitely looks like fare evasion (what would have happened if the barriers were open?).

[Feeney007]

My mistake - I re-read what I wrote and have written 'exiting' where I meant 'entering'! No I'm not in the practice of starting a journey and only paying after the fact. I was meaning the once or twice there has been 10 or 20p short of the fare when it comes to exit. The barriers open, and the fare taken off but it'll be in negative. Not good practice I know, but usually I travel on the bus where I find it impossible to read the balance so am out of the habit of always looking at it. Then the card can't be used again until you put money on it.

 

If the card didn't have enough after exiting the Waterloo underground, and was in negative, I should not have been able to use it until I had topped up. That's fine, if it had of beeped at Waterloo I would have topped up before getting on a train. But the barriers opened as I rushed onto a train and I didn't think at all that I wasn't travelling on a valid card.

 

Why is there this oddity when travelling between National Rail/Underground that lets the barriers open on a zero balance?

 

Also, why was the last journey that their card reader able to pick up from my card, one I made almost a week earlier when I had used my card every day since then including putting money on it?

[Feeney007]

Also lesson learnt if it's meant to act as a deterrent! I am going to routinely check what the balance of my card is as I sure never want to go through that again!

[Stigy]

My mistake - I re-read what I wrote and have written 'exiting' where I meant 'entering'! No I'm not in the practice of starting a journey and only paying after the fact. I was meaning the once or twice there has been 10 or 20p short of the fare when it comes to exit. The barriers open, and the fare taken off but it'll be in negative. Not good practice I know, but usually I travel on the bus where I find it impossible to read the balance so am out of the habit of always looking at it. Then the card can't be used again until you put money on it.

 

If the card didn't have enough after exiting the Waterloo underground, and was in negative, I should not have been able to use it until I had topped up. That's fine, if it had of beeped at Waterloo I would have topped up before getting on a train. But the barriers opened as I rushed onto a train and I didn't think at all that I wasn't travelling on a valid card.

 

Why is there this oddity when travelling between National Rail/Underground that lets the barriers open on a zero balance?

 

Also, why was the last journey that their card reader able to pick up from my card, one I made almost a week earlier when I had used my card every day since then including putting money on it?

Although it would be a rarity to pursue given that you hadn't even entered the station with no credit, it's worth bearing in mind that intending not to pay for your rail journey is also an offence. Having said that, not sure if they bring that one home in court given that you were unable to even enter the station through the barriers, lol.

 

I've never known there to be an issue with Oyster Cards opening ticket barriers when there's not sufficient credit on them. The staff have readers that say where the journey way started etc. I wasn't there so I don't know all sides to this one, but I generally don't trust modern technology (the readers or Oyster themselves) anyway, as there's generally a lot that can potentially go wrong!

[Grotesque]

If you have already appealed I hope you put all these points in the appeal and not just after the event to us! Yes the barriers at Waterloo wouldn't open unless you had over the minimum fare (£1.80 I think); and yes it's possible that the RPI's reader (OMOV) was knackered!

 

Mind you I hope you didn't tell them that you mostly travel by buses and, in the same breath, then say you've done the journey every day... a slight anomaly?

[Feeney007]

Yes I included the majority of these points - unfortunately other than the most important being a copy of the receipt which I know have. I did include the Oystercard number, are they able to trace information from that?

It shows

 

13:11 CJ - Waterloo NR £0.00 charged

13.20 CJ - Leic Square £0.00 charged

-- I exited Leicester Square, did my errand and went back to Waterloo to go home --

13.51 CJ - Waterloo LU £0.00 charged (odd that it has continued this from my inbound journey even though I'm now going home on a separate journey)

13.53 Uncompleted Pre Pay Entry Waterloo NR £1.50

14.07 Rejected Exit Clapham Junction £0.00

 

Am I right in assuming when you swipe your card at the start of a journey it registers that there's credit, then does not take off the cost of the journey until you exit. In my case it looks like it has tacked my return journey onto my inbound one since it was without such a short time frame. Which in a bizarre set of circumstances led to the barriers opening for me when they shouldn't.

 

I travel weekdays to work via the bus, I often travel via Waterloo from CJ on the weekend or evenings. So yes, my card had been used everyday since the last journey they were telling me I had taken to Waterloo, but not every journey was to/from Waterloo other than one the night before.

[Grotesque]

The Oyster, when validated, acts like any other ticket: i.e, has to be paid for in advance. PAYG takes the maximum fare when you 'touch-in' and then adjusts your balance when you 'touch-out'. That's why it needs the minimum fare loaded on already. If the journey you make is then over that minimum fare, the balance goes into a negative and has to be 'topped-up' before next entering the system.

 

PS: yes now you have a reference nmber, send in a copy of the receipt.

[Feeney007]

Okay, in that case not sure what happened with my journeys!

 

I did the appeal online. What's the best way to get them a copy of the receipt?

[Grotesque]

It could be worked out but only by seeing the full day I guess, A > B > C etc.

 

Have you got a scanner? If not not just photocopy / registered post + reference number.

[Feeney007]

This is my full days worth of travel.

13:11 CJ - Waterloo NR £0.00 charged

13.20 CJ - Leic Square £0.00 charged

13.51 CJ - Waterloo LU £0.00 charged (odd that it has continued this from my inbound journey even though I'm now going home on a separate journey)

13.53 Uncompleted Pre Pay Entry Waterloo NR £1.50

14.07 Rejected Exit Clapham Junction £0.00

 

I have scanned the receipt - is there an email address I'm able to send it to or postal address only?

[John-JCs]

This is my full days worth of travel.

13:11 CJ - Waterloo NR £0.00 charged

13.20 CJ - Leic Square £0.00 charged

13.51 CJ - Waterloo LU £0.00 charged (odd that it has continued this from my inbound journey even though I'm now going home on a separate journey)

13.53 Uncompleted Pre Pay Entry Waterloo NR £1.50

14.07 Rejected Exit Clapham Junction £0.00

 

I have scanned the receipt - is there an email address I'm able to send it to or postal address only?

 

Send it via recorded mail as these agencies have a tendancy to forget or misplace emails!

Recorded / registered mail proves receipt. An email proves nothing.

[Grotesque]

An email proves nothing.

 

You should, in that case, instruct Gareth Pierce to fight for the various Al-Q'eda people who are doing 10 years for conspiracy on account of their emails being logged by ISP's and then summoned as evidence. In their cases, an email proved plenty. How's that armchair, BTW?