South West Trains Ticket Confiscated

[pakanena]

Hi everyone, This is a long one!I wonder if anyone can help me. I travel Monday to Friday to Waterloo and then get a bus or the Tube to Holborn. For June and July I purchased a season ticket from London Road, Guildford to London Terminals including underground at a cost of around £330. The service is run by South West Trains.I have been living back in the UK since the end of May, mainly staying at my dad's in Guildford which is why my Season ticket originated there.However, I also travel to Pulborough in West Sussex on Thursday evenings, travel to London and back on a Friday and again to London on a Monday morning, always purchasing a separate ticket for these journeys.I worked out that I was not using the Season ticket from London to its full cost and therefore at the beginning of August when it was up for renewal, spoke to a ticket officer at London Road station and explained that as a general rule, my travel was as follows:Monday am PUL – VICMonday pm WAT - LRDTuesday LRD – WAT – LRDWednesday LRD – WAT – LRDThursday am LRD – WATThursday pm VIC – PULFriday PUL – VIC – PULTwice a month I will stay in North London with my cousin, therefore travelling on the Underground and not using my season ticket at all for two journeys.I asked him whether I could therefore buy a season ticket from Clapham Junction to London, and then daily buy tickets from either London Road or Pulborough depending on where I was travelling from/to. He said this was fine, and sold me said season ticket valid for a month, with a separate ticket for that day to and from London Road.Yesterday morning I woke up very, very late, got dressed and ran out the door and all the way to the station. I usually get the 0711 from London Road but yesterday arrived at 0720 as the 0721 was pulling in. So, I jumped on the train, sweating (nice), sat down and got my purse ready for when the inspector came through.She did so within about 5 minutes. Straight away I asked her if I could purchase a ticket from London Road to Clapham Junction. She asked to see all my tickets (I keep nearly all of them as there is no ticket barrier at London Road nor Pulborough). She took them and looked through, and then asked me to stand with her by the doors.She then told me I was under caution and read me the caution speech (You do not have to say anything etc etc). At this point I was a bit bewildered and asked her why I couldn’t buy a ticket as I had done so on two previous occasions, and she replied that it was not possible to buy tickets on the train (even though she had a portable ticket machine with her)She told me she was going to ask me some questions. She asked why I had a season ticket from Clapham to London if I was travelling from Guildford. I explained all the above.She then asked me to write down my name, address and telephone number in her notebook which I did willingly. She made a telephone call, I presume to check my address, and then proceeded to ask me whether the information I had provided was correct, and would I like to amend it? I confirmed it was, and that the reason she wouldn’t be able to verify it through the electoral roll, presuming that was what she was doing, was because I am not on the electoral roll and living at my dad’s temporarily, and we have different surnames because he is not my biological father. I showed her my driving licence to prove that my address was correct and she wrote down the number.She asked if it was my intention to travel without paying the fare and I assured her it wasn’t which is why I had been prepared with my card to pay the fare as soon as I got on board.She wrote all the questions along with my answers in her notebook and then asked me to sign and date, which I did. She then told me she was confiscating my ticket (valid for another two weeks), she would accompany me to Waterloo to let me through the barrier and that I was to go to Wimbledon station revenue office that evening to collect a receipt. After that she wouldn’t speak to me again other than to let me through at Waterloo.So last night I went to Wimbledon – revenue office was shut and nobody there could help me or knew what I was talking about. I spent 40 minutes there wandering around to absolutely no avail.So excuse the long explanation above – could anyone tell me what I can expect to happen next and do I have ANY say in the matter? I showed her several previous tickets to prove that I buy tickets every single day. I have nothing at all to show for what happened – no paper from her, no receipt, nothing. Many thanks in advance for the advice.

[pakanena]

Sincere apologies – I did use punctuation and paragraphs and they are not showing on here which makes for very difficult reading!

[Stigy]

Hi everyone, This is a long one!I wonder if anyone can help me. I travel Monday to Friday to Waterloo and then get a bus or the Tube to Holborn. For June and July I purchased a season ticket from London Road, Guildford to London Terminals including underground at a cost of around £330. The service is run by South West Trains.I have been living back in the UK since the end of May, mainly staying at my dad's in Guildford which is why my Season ticket originated there.However, I also travel to Pulborough in West Sussex on Thursday evenings, travel to London and back on a Friday and again to London on a Monday morning, always purchasing a separate ticket for these journeys.I worked out that I was not using the Season ticket from London to its full cost and therefore at the beginning of August when it was up for renewal, spoke to a ticket officer at London Road station and explained that as a general rule, my travel was as follows:Monday am PUL – VICMonday pm WAT - LRDTuesday LRD – WAT – LRDWednesday LRD – WAT – LRDThursday am LRD – WATThursday pm VIC – PULFriday PUL – VIC – PULTwice a month I will stay in North London with my cousin, therefore travelling on the Underground and not using my season ticket at all for two journeys.

 

I asked him whether I could therefore buy a season ticket from Clapham Junction to London, and then daily buy tickets from either London Road or Pulborough depending on where I was travelling from/to. He said this was fine, and sold me said season ticket valid for a month, with a separate ticket for that day to and from London Road.Yesterday morning I woke up very, very late, got dressed and ran out the door and all the way to the station.

 

I usually get the 0711 from London Road but yesterday arrived at 0720 as the 0721 was pulling in. So, I jumped on the train, sweating (nice), sat down and got my purse ready for when the inspector came through.She did so within about 5 minutes. Straight away I asked her if I could purchase a ticket from London Road to Clapham Junction. She asked to see all my tickets (I keep nearly all of them as there is no ticket barrier at London Road nor Pulborough). She took them and looked through, and then asked me to stand with her by the doors.She then told me I was under caution and read me the caution speech (You do not have to say anything etc etc). At this point I was a bit bewildered and asked her why I couldn’t buy a ticket as I had done so on two previous occasions, and she replied that it was not possible to buy tickets on the train (even though she had a portable ticket machine with her)She told me she was going to ask me some questions.

 

She asked why I had a season ticket from Clapham to London if I was travelling from Guildford. I explained all the above.She then asked me to write down my name, address and telephone number in her notebook which I did willingly. She made a telephone call, I presume to check my address, and then proceeded to ask me whether the information I had provided was correct, and would I like to amend it? I confirmed it was, and that the reason she wouldn’t be able to verify it through the electoral roll, presuming that was what she was doing, was because I am not on the electoral roll and living at my dad’s temporarily, and we have different surnames because he is not my biological father. I showed her my driving licence to prove that my address was correct and she wrote down the number.She asked if it was my intention to travel without paying the fare and I assured her it wasn’t which is why I had been prepared with my card to pay the fare as soon as I got on board.She wrote all the questions along with my answers in her notebook and then asked me to sign and date, which I did. She then told me she was confiscating my ticket (valid for another two weeks), she would accompany me to Waterloo to let me through the barrier and that I was to go to Wimbledon station revenue office that evening to collect a receipt. After that she wouldn’t speak to me again other than to let me through at Waterloo.So last night I went to Wimbledon – revenue office was shut and nobody there could help me or knew what I was talking about. I spent 40 minutes there wandering around to absolutely no avail.So excuse the long explanation above – could anyone tell me what I can expect to happen next and do I have ANY say in the matter? I showed her several previous tickets to prove that I buy tickets every single day. I have nothing at all to show for what happened – no paper from her, no receipt, nothing. Many thanks in advance for the advice.

I have quoted the whole post, and seperated it in to paragraphs for you.

 

Ok, from the RPI's point of view, you boarded a train at an unbarriered station, and had a monthly travelcard valid between Clapham Junction and Zones 1 and 2 presumably. You also had in your possesion, I presume, the old Travelcards you used to use, which were valid from London Road (Guildford) to Zones 1 - 6 of London. What this clearly looks like, whether it be correct or not, is that you didn't want to pay £330 a month, so decided, bearing in mind that the trains from London Road to Waterloo are largely unchecked as far as tickets go, to try your luck getting to Clapham without being checked for a ticket, and the once in a blue moon you are checked, you'll pay the difference, meaning you still save a pretty penny.

 

Okay, now if there's enough evidence to suggest this, SWT will more than likely seek to prosecute you under S.5(3)b of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RRA), which, in laymans terms states that you boarded a train with a ticket valid to to a station, and travelled beyond that station, in a deliberate attempt to defraud the company out part of the rail fare. RRA offences are PNC recordable, and can attract a fine on conviction of up to £1,000 and/or 3-months imprisonment. Realistically though, you'll tend to receive a fine equivalent to a weeks average wage (£350) plus costs etc, and a criminal record. Prison is reserved for subsequent offences of the same nature, and even then it's unlikely to happen, so try not to worry.

 

SWT will more than likely invite you in for a second interview regarding this alleged offence, as it is potentially a serious breach if it can be proved. If you genuinely didn't do any of the above intentionally, and SWT believe this, and the evidence suggests there's not enough proof to secure a RRA charge at the Magistrates' Court, they could use Railway Byelaw 18(1) which is a strict liability matter, and as such rerquires no intention on your part, to defraud the railway. The penalties are typically a lot less serious, although it'll still be a Criminal case heard by Magistrates.

 

I suggest you wait to hear what SWT have to say to you, as they'll be in touch usually in writing. You'll know then what they intend to do, and unfortunately you can't do much until this time.

[SRPO]

Unfortunately for you, this is the most common [problem] on the railway.

You will need to convince SWT that you are a genuine case. Contact their customer services regarding your season ticket, this should speed up the process, keep all your receipts for the next 2 weeks as you will be able to get a refund on them.

[pakanena]

Thank you to both of you for your prompt replies.I am concerned, and having read around the subject understand that SWT are one of the tougher companies to deal with. I throw my hands up and willingly admit that I should have purchased a ticket before I boarded the train on Tuesday, but as in the past I have been able to buy one on board (I think this has been two times) I assumed I would be able to do the same this time.With respect to the season ticket being from Clapham to London Terminals (not underground) I was told by the ticket person at London Road (where I purchased the ticket) that I would be able to purchase the same and then individually purchase tickets from London Road or Pulborough to Clapham J daily depending on where I was travelling from.I am going to continue to be completely honest with SWT and hope that they see the truth in this. Although I am sure they have heard it 100 times before, but I am not a law breaker - I have absolutely no prior convictions, a clean driving licence etc, and work for one of the largest law firms in the country so am well aware of the benefits of staying on the correct side of the law!Thanks once again for your speedy responses.

[Old-CodJA]

The fact that there is a growing number of 'chancers', boarding without paying in many areas is leading to a hard line being taken in many cases.

 

Clearly, you are aware that you did not hold a valid rail ticket, facilities were available to you to obtain a ticket before boarding and you did hold a ticket for a different journey, which would have allowed you to exit the barrier line without questioning at the London end.

 

A charge alleging either the strict liability breach of National Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005) or 'intent to avoid a fare' contrary Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways act (1889) might be considered in this case.

 

Occasionally, those making a genuine mistake in 'assuming too much' in relation to being allowed to pay on board might be caught up by the hard line responses. It is always the travellers responsibility to get a ticket before boarding where facilities are avalibale to them to do so.

 

A well written letter, expressing genuine remose for an uncharacteristic momentary lapse of attention, an apology to the staff concerned and explanation of the complexity of your regular travel along with an offer to pay the fare and associated reasonably incurred administration costs may well get a good response.

[pakanena]

Yesterday, three months after the above incident occurred, I received a letter from South West Trains. I did fear the worst, but after “careful consideration of the circumstances”, they have made me a “generous offer” to fine me £108.90 (£8.90 fare, £55.00 operational costs and £45.00 Administration and Prosecutor’s Costs) in order to settle the matter without prosecution. While I am still angered by this whole situation (despite wholeheartedly agreeing that I should have had a ticket before boarding the train), I am going to pay the fine and settle the matter. I’ve only spent £2400 on rail tickets since May, what’s another £100?! The question now is where I should send the signed letter agreeing to payment, as no information is given in their letter in this respect…Thanks again to everyone for their time and advice.

[Old-CodJA]

Surely the letter has a heading with an address from which it has been sent?

 

If I were you, I would send the payment made to the rail company and to that address unless I were told otherwise.

[pakanena]

The letter has three addresses on it, and I plan to send the signed acceptance of the fine to all three along with a covering note explaining my reason for this.

With regards to payment of the fine, the letter reads: If you accept this offer to conclude this matter without recourse to court action, please sign and print your name below and return to Stagecoact South Western Trains Limited within fourteen days of the above date.

Postal orders may be made payable to South West Trains and payment by CREDIT/DEBIT CARDS (CHEQUES or SOLO/ELECTRON cards are not accepted) can be made by telephone (Tel No: 023 8072 8022) between the hours of 10:00hrs and 16:00hrs, Monday to Friday (Excluding Bank Holidays). It is a very busy line, so I apologise if you hear a busy tone – but your call will be answered as soon as a member of staff is free.

If you choose to settle by Credit/Debit card over the telephone, please allow three working days for your correspondence to reach Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited. PAYMENT WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED IF YOUR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT SLIP HAS NOT BEEN RECEIVED.Once payment has been received and cleared, this matter will be closed.

If you disagree with the above generous offer, or do not respond within 14 days from the above date, this matter will proceed to prosecution at Guildford Magistrates Court at our earliest opportunity. Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited will forward the appropriate SUMMONSES and COURT BUNDLE at least 14 days prior to the first hearing date.Yours sincerely

[Stigy]

The letter has three addresses on it, and I plan to send the signed acceptance of the fine to all three along with a covering note explaining my reason for this.

With regards to payment of the fine, the letter reads: If you accept this offer to conclude this matter without recourse to court action, please sign and print your name below and return to Stagecoact South Western Trains Limited within fourteen days of the above date.

Postal orders may be made payable to South West Trains and payment by CREDIT/DEBIT CARDS (CHEQUES or SOLO/ELECTRON cards are not accepted) can be made by telephone (Tel No: 023 8072 8022) between the hours of 10:00hrs and 16:00hrs, Monday to Friday (Excluding Bank Holidays). It is a very busy line, so I apologise if you hear a busy tone – but your call will be answered as soon as a member of staff is free.

If you choose to settle by Credit/Debit card over the telephone, please allow three working days for your correspondence to reach Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited. PAYMENT WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED IF YOUR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT SLIP HAS NOT BEEN RECEIVED.Once payment has been received and cleared, this matter will be closed.

If you disagree with the above generous offer, or do not respond within 14 days from the above date, this matter will proceed to prosecution at Guildford Magistrates Court at our earliest opportunity. Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited will forward the appropriate SUMMONSES and COURT BUNDLE at least 14 days prior to the first hearing date.Yours sincerely

You've answered your own question there, surely?

[pakanena]

Perhaps, if both addresses didn't have the same heading...