Atos - issues with assessment

[sickovbeensick]

I am not arguing about fraudsters claiming benefits i just spent 8 miontsh arguing the fact with ATOS and the DWP and finally won i have had enough arguments to last me a life time....FACT there are thousands of people in this country getting benefits fraudulantely adn im not been funny but posting the descriptors and what you said i order to get the points is a bit dodgy! When a person goes to a medical they have to be honest not go there with ideas and information gathered from othe rindividuals in a forum because for all you knowe the people you give the helpful advice to may be lying and you just basically pouinted out what they need to say in order to pass....its a bloody joke and very unfair ! the person should get themselves a legal rep who will contact their specialist consultants and GP's etc and then advise what needs to be put and said not someone giving someone a basic meal ticket on how to pass the bloody WCA on a forum im reporting this to admin they shouldnt conmdone someone posting a basic cheat sheet of what to say for which descriptor to garuantee points its dishonest and unfaur and although the comment was probably given in good faith and as a kind jesture the person u sent the pointers to could be a faker wanting to pass the medical!

[Nystagmite]

I agree. I know Leemack posted how to fill the forms in; but I think that was more what do with what the questions and descriptors mean.

[count orlok]

So I get the letter and phone call telling me I am being transfered from IB to ESA sent off the questionnaire, got call from Job centre telling me I was in support group and would be assessed again in about 2 years. Used to get assessed every 5 years with IB so is this all that will change?

 

Are the medicals for ESA the same as the IB ones, the descriptors are very similar IB was 30m ESA 50m? What happens if I am fed up with the pain and humiliation involved with the medical and only answer their silly questions?

 

Does having had several heart attacks no longer get you in, or do they think your putting that on too? Will the changes to DLA be similar. I keep feeling up and then down with all this, I sometime feel like telling them to stuff it all. Why did people vote this lot in, they must have known it would be like this?

[merlyn2003]

I don't get called to assesments because I have a GENETIC disorder!

I have been receiving hospital care for my condition since 1980 four years after I was born!!! I live in a depersonalized state as do all the male members of my family including my Nephew.

I've been found fit for work and put in the work group for ESA.

It does not bother me...!

[eliotnpt]

I stumbled across this site several weeks ago whilst doing some frantic research and looking for advice on ESA appeals. I have today joined the forum in order to relate a little of my own experiences and to keep in touch with what is happening with others. I hope what has happened to me will assist someone else, but note that this is still ongoing.

 

Some 11 months ago I was called for my regular two-yearly medical to continue receipt of Incapacity Benefit. Less than half-way through the examination I was told to go home because I was clearly not fit enough to continue and should not even be out of my home. Several weeks later, the decision arrived and, as with the previous 3 medicals I had had for IB, I was scored a minimum of 15 points for physical incapacity and minimum of 15 points for mental ill-health.

 

In July this year (2011) I received another questionnaire to complete (not sure of the name, the usual one we all have to complete by hand and return). It took me two weeks to complete, being able to write only a few lines at a time each day. That was my first mistake... I completed the form by hand myself (although with guidance from a friend who explained the questions to me) but I focussed on health issues, I had not even heard of descriptors and such like. I posted off the form and a few days later received a call from the DWP - how they obtained my number I do not know because I do not print it on any forms since I have difficulty answering the telephone. Anyway, the call was brief, it was early on a Saturday morning, the lady on the other end was trying to arrange for me to attend for a medical. Time and again she kept telling me I had to be assessed in the next city, each time I said that it would be impossible for me to travel that distance. Then she checked my post code and insisted I had always gone to the next city for my medicals. Again I refused and told her they would have to send someone to my home. As soon as I said that, I was told there was a computer error, my post code was showing as belonging to the next city (some 15 miles away) but I could have my ESA assessment in my own city (barely 1 mile away from my home). I knew I was not totally mad. I knew I had always gone to an assessment centre in my city. Thankfully it was simply a "computer error" - yeah, as if any of us reading these forums will ever believe that!

 

I arrived at the assessment centre at 09.10, 20 minutes before my examination time. I was the only person present aside from the receptionist who booked me in. She then asked me to take a seat. I looked around. There was no suitable chair for me, although I had stressed on the questionnaire that I required certain seating to be made available. All the chairs were so low that they were only suitable for a child. I said I would have to stand and wait. The receptionist said it would be at least 2 hours before I was seen because someone else had already gone in for their examination. Two hours to wait! Yet I had arrived 20 minutes before my appointment time. I explained that I could not stand (nor even sit) for that length of time and the receptionist then telephoned ATOS who gave her permission to arrange another appointment for me. This second appointment was for 09.00 4 days later. I turned up for this second appointment, 15 minutes before the scheduled time, only to be told I did not have an appointment that day! It turns out, they had booked this second appointment for me to go to the next city! Yet another phone call to ATOS and another appointment made, this time for 2 weeks later.

 

For this third appointment I arrived at 08.45, as the receptionist was being let into the building by a security officer. She signed me in, remembered that I was unable to sit on the chairs, and so I stood hunched over and being supported by the back of another chair, resting myself against the wall. At 09.15, already 15 minutes late for my scheduled appointment time, I was called by another lady (who turned out to be my examiner and wore a badge stating she was a doctor - her name was not English and no way can I remember it). I followed her, very slowly and very weakly to the examination room and again exclaimed that no suitable seating had been provided for me. She told me to sit in the chair, or stand, or sit on the couch behind. All were unsuitable and, with great pain, I sat in the chair which was positioned right in front of the desk and so I could hold onto the desk for support. And then the "examination" began.

 

I won't go into the "examination" but will say that it was virtually identical to all other examinations I had received to claim IB. I detected absolutely no difference other than this "Healthcare Professional" employed by ATOS showed absolutely no interest at all in me, what I had to say, my health conditions. She was simply going through a database of questions in sequence as though this was the first time she had ever seen a claimant (indeed, it was as though I was the first patient she had ever seen in her medical career).

 

I answered all questioned as completely as she would allow me, I attempted all the examination "tests" although a number of them I could not do because the pain was too great. She then ended the "assessment" and said I could put my coat on and leave. Put my own coat on? She had already examined me and found I could not move my arms behind my body nor raise them up above shoulder height. I said it was impossible and asked her to help. With great reluctance and absolute distaste, she did so. I then went to the door and could not open it. I asked for assistance and she huffed and puffed as she again got out of her chair and opened the door, explaining it was a fire door and some people did have difficulty with it because it was so heavy and required a lot of "pull" to open it. She then said I could leave. I asked where I was supposed to go and, after explaining rapidly I asked her to repeat. Three more times she had to repeat how I was to leave the building and I shuffled breathlessly along the corridor and through the waiting room and out. Okay, it was probably less than 20m but by that time it felt more like a mile. I then got straight into my friend's car and he returned me home quickly, and it took over a week before I felt recovered enough from that "experience". Why did I require a lift? Well, aside from not being able to walk comfortably, aside from having no idea how to even get to the assessment centre unaided, I am agoraphobic, a condition explained on the questionnaire and supported with medical evidence. I do have other major health issues, again with supporting evidence.

 

Some three weeks later I received the result... 0 points. I was totally shocked. The letter stated I would receive my final payment of IB the following Friday and, on the following Monday should register as unemployed with the local Job Centre and actively seek work. It mentioned I could appeal against the decision yet the letter of notification was geared totally to the recipient signing unemployed. I had "failed" my first assessment for ESA. I had been pronounced fit for work by a qualified GP (I have no idea if she was registered to practice medicine in this country). I was, in effect, being told I had been scrounging off the state and should now get off my backside and find work. I was totally devastated.

 

I have no idea what happened to me over the following hour, it was as though a huge mass of adrenalin had suddenly pumped through my system. My heart was racing manically, my brain was going into overload, I felt that I was going to crash into a wall, my entire thought processes changed as anger now welled up inside me. Given that I also suffer delusional paranoia and have been considered a risk not only to myself but to the general public if I lose my normal status quo, I guess this was the obvious result. I braced myself, I felt that I was now going into a war zone, I looked at the dreaded telephone and forced myself to tap out the number on the top of the form I had received. THREE times I was transferred, no one seemed to know who I should talk with because I had not actually been receiving ESA, I had not claimed ESA, I was still receiving IB and my ATOS assessment had been part of the migration of claimants from IB to ESA. Eventially, it was decided I had to speak with the IB section and, finally, a very nice lady listened to my garbled explanation. She said I had two options now, the first to register as unemployed, the second to obtain a medical certificate to say I was unfit for work and appeal the decision. She said she would send me the appeal form and it should be returned, together with the medical certificate, to the address at the top of the letter I had received (the one in Scotland). I felt some measure of relief but not much. Still filled with anger and having no real idea of what I had to do, I went to the trusted Google search engine and typed in some buzz words. This site was one of the first and I am so grateful for being able to read of the past experiences of others who post here, as well as the stickys. Because of those, I was able to bring my thoughts into focus. A second hurried phone call back to the IB department and I requested a copy of the medical report. I also realised this was way beyond my own capabilities now and so made an appointment to discuss my case with the welfare rights officer at my local MIND the following week.

 

Thanks to the links on this forum and the stickys, I tracked down the descriptors and the code of practice for ATOS Healthcare Professionals. The appeal form and the medical report arrived several days later and... you guessed it... just looking at the medical report pushed me into a massive depression as I wondered just who on earth the examiner was talking about! I don't think there was one accurate report typed out, silly examples I can mention are... Can make his own coffee (yet I don't drink coffee), Can walk 200m with no difficulty (yet in other parts of the report she states I could walk the 20m to the examination room with difficulty), Refused to do the test (this appeared numerous times, that I refused to do a test, yet the code for the Healthcare Professionals clearly states that they should examine a claimant even if it causes pain BUT adds that if a claimant is unable to complete a test because of pain then it MUST be scored that the claimant is UNABLE to do that task - hence, a points award, not 0 points), Is not delusional (really? I don't think it is possible to be paranoid yet not be delusional), and then I stumbled across another issue that has no place in this thread, suffice to say that the examining doctor asked me why I left my previous employment, I gave a brief detail, she stated she needed full details because she had to put it on the report, I gave full details. This again was mentioned in the code of practice and the doctor should NOT have proceeded with those questions. That is enough I think to show that the report was no report at all, it was totally wrong and did not even mention most of my health conditions and nowhere did it even mention agoraphobia!

 

Following the advice from the DWP, I completed the appeal form. Following the advice from this site, I requested that my benefit be continued at the lower rate pending tribunal. I then arranged to have a few pages typed out to explain why I was appealing and related each point to the descriptors. I posted this after my GP gave me a medical certificate for 3 months.

 

Over the next few days, and with help from a friend (the only person I ever see or speak with, yet the medical report states I am a highly sociable person with many friends around the country who contact me and visit me), I went through each point of the medical report, comparing them with the descriptors, and explaining in more detail. These notes I passed to the welfare rights officer a few days later, and discussed everything in full with him. His first question to me? Did you attend your medical looking tidy. I would have laughed at that question a few months earlier but I know now that we should never make any kind of attempt to look respectable for these examiners. A week later he contacted me and said he could add nothing more to the notes that I had made, they covered every point and more, including quoting from the code of practice and quoting the exact wording from the medical report along with my dispute of each point. It was long, very long, but when you discover that every single part of the medical report is factually incorrect then all that can be done is to respond to every part of it.

 

I posted that, as an addition to the original appeal (already stating on the first appeal form that more information would be following soon). Again, this was posted in such a way that the recipient had to sign for it at the other end.

 

Interestingly, on Friday morning, two days ago, I received two letters. The first from my local council stating they had suspended payment of my housing benefit and council tax benefit because they had been informed I was no longer in receipt of benefit from the DWP. A telephone call to them explaining the position and they said if I handwrite and sign a letter stating I have no source of income and am appealing, they will reinstate that benefit. The second letter was from the appeals section advising they were going to look at my case again and see if they could change the decision in my favour before submitting the papers to the tribunal for full appeal. This letter was dated exactly 7 days from the day they received my original appeal (I had tracked it on the internet and so know when they signed for it) but what made it more unusual was that I had already been told there was no review available to me, that it would go straight to appeal in my case. What will happen now I do not know. From the research we have done, it is clear that I should be in the support group (I had no idea of different groups before coming across this site), and there was no mention of my benefit being continued at the lower rate pending tribunal hearing.

 

Early days for me, and my experience is clearly no different from others. Now I have to wonder if I should phone to see if they will be continuing to pay me some money since my next payment is due in 5 days, and if so, who do I phone because no one seems to know which department is dealing with my case. Do I allow an office-based assessment of my case or do I tell them to forget it and push the papers straight to tribunal? (I wonder this because their letter states that if they do find in my favour then they will cancel the appeal, but I won't know what group I will be placed in until AFTER they cancel the appeal if they do find in my favour). I must also get my medical report from the advisor, or at least the name of the doctor, and somehow try to find out if she is qualified to practice in this country. I find it very sad, though, that any GP can totally ignore the mental and physical ill-health of a person simply to follow guidelines laid down by ATOS.

 

I hope to follow this thread over the months and hope others can report some positive news and advice for all of us.

[honeybee13]

Hello there and welcome to the forum.

 

Whew, that's a long and distressing read. I know how it feels and sadly Atos's shortcomings don't come as much of a surprise to me. Well done you for going through with the assessment and all the failed attempts.

 

You've obviously worked very hard on all this and I'm pleased that you have MIND and Welfare Rights on your side, as well as CAG .

 

To answer part of what you're asking, the appeals process is split into 2 parts. I'm probably using the wrong terms here, but your request for reconsideration goes to a DWP decisionmaker [DM] first. In many cases they stick with the original decision, but recently and I think maybe more since they started moving people from IB to ESA, the DM can reverse the decision to stop your benefit. If they do, then you don't need to go to the tribunal. [i don't know the bit about which group they would put you into, but I think people here have argued that they're in the wrong one.]

 

You only go to the tribunal if the DM doesn't change the original decision, but that's the second stage of the process. You're still appealing.

 

I hope that helps a bit.

 

My best, HB

[sickovbeensick]

dont worry at this stage im sure things will be fine im sorry to hear of yur ordeal with the ncompitent ATOS workers as have majority fo us on this site but lets not gointo that rigt now as itlll set me off to! Bassically it sounds like you have gathered as much information adn advice as is possible at this stage....did u get any documentatuion form a GP or hospital specialist or psychiatrist because igf you didnt i would strongly advise you to do that and before you do notify the appeals section as they can temporairly hold the appeal unitl you get all of the relevant docs to them if you have all of this evidence and information for them at this stage it wil more than likely get the DM o overturn ATOS decision adn you are hearing of tis more and more recentely as teh DM at ESA take there time with these decisions turst me im currently in my secomd appeal to do with tthis adn they have been so helpful andf wanting to assist me hereas when my appeal started over a year ago they seemed less bothered and quite judgemental towards me due to the ATOS report form the incompitent supposed nurse who did my assessment. They have continued paying me but have put a hold on my apperal so that they can allow me time tyo get official documents from my GP spec ialist doctors and conxsultants as this gives them a proper picture of your ill health and how it affects you on a dialy basis! The more info you chuck at the them at this stage the better your chances and if for any reason you are uunseccsful it will mean you have al the documents you need for the tribunal hearing at a court of law to get whats rightfully yours! The one thing i will make you aware of uis if you are unfortunate enough to be turned down at this stage be prepared to be messed about by the trinunal services as i and many people hae bee in trms if the length of times waiting for the hearng date whioch in most cases is 7 months plus some people over a year as ATOS are failing miost people and those who are genuinely unwell like us are taking the DWP and ATOS to court in turn to prove they havent appilied law correctly so the more documents yopu get the better. Now with the giorups most people are put in the WRAG group which means you are asked to attend appointments at the jobcentre fo work related activity and help to get you back into work at some point and alos you usually are signed ogff ffr4rom work for about a year or so before needeing another medical unfortuanlety then there is support group which means you get signed off and arent reuqired to attenmd appointments or look for work and in turn you can concentrate on trying to improve your helath and resting more to make you moe comfortable and as far as im aware you will npot be sent for another mediucal for a good few years. Though this group is very difficult to get in and i think about 14% of ESA claimants manage to get in this group but obviouly if you have medical documentation to support your need to be put in thsi group you shoud be fine at this stage you are still at the beggining of a possible very long roa to getting this sorted your group depending on wether the DWP overturn ATOS decision propbably wont be decided until maybe this time next year if you have to go to a full appeal in court

 

All the Best with your appeal adn ghoper you get better soon and feel m ore comfrotable and i hope the DWP can see the error of the incompietnet workings of ATOS and overturn there decision for you

Kind Regards

SOBS

[Nystagmite]

I don't get called to assesments because I have a GENETIC disorder!

 

eh? Having a genetic disorder means nothing.

[sickovbeensick]

eh? Having a genetic disorder means nothing.

 

Pople who suffer with depression, bi polar dissorder and such have genetic dissorders.....as if you read about it its genetic so i dont understanmd what this has to do with you not been caled to assessments tha seems a little unfair unless your gentic dissorder is that of a dibilatating one to the point you cant walk or move around which i hope isnt the case because that would be awful?!

[Nystagmite]

Pople who suffer with depression, bi polar dissorder and such have genetic dissorders.....as if you read about it its genetic so i dont understanmd what this has to do with you not been caled to assessments tha seems a little unfair

 

This is what has confused me. Under IB, you were exempt if you met a certain condition. None of them (although your diagnosis could be caused be genes - a relative of mine has a genetic condition, which under IB, may have exempted her from the assessment) mentioned anything about genetics.

 

Depression and bi polar aren't always genetic. It's likely that my depression is related to my head injury - nothing to do with genetics. (although, it is believed that's something to do with childhood epilepsy, which in my case, is more than likely genetic)

 

For most people, their depression is related to certain life situations,

[sickovbeensick]

oh yes definately im not sure on the figures exactly but my psychiatrost told me its more of a genetic disorder thats usually triggered off by certain life effects and that there are many fortunate people whio have the genes passed down from there parents and family but as they dont have any distressing situations in there lives hey are ever triggered thus not causing any problems n all i can say to them people is lucky them and i hope they continue that way becuase i wouldnt wish manic depression bi polar or any other genetic mental health problem on anywone......im not sure about IB i have worked since leaving school when ever possible and its only since ive become really unwell past 2 years that ive got into the benefit system adn its ridiculous circus like act of jumping through hopes...jesus ive paid my taxes for over 9 years and probably paid enough tax to fund my sickness benefit for another couple of years until hopefully im at a stage that my meds are tabelised as is my health problems and then i can return to work....it sounds like IB was much easier to get on to and unfortunately because of those peope who toojk the mick out of the system and hardworker honest people the governemnet have changed the systems and benefits which are designed to make it near impossible to get on them whichs a massive shame because for example my appeaL last altogerther over a year......n this whole period directly caused me to get more stressed worried and anxious this making one of my illnesses a whole lot worse so if they made it were each person was assesed on their individual health issues and care needs etc it would be much farer but instead they have a medical that asks if yu can do your shopping or can you sit and watch tv and then decide if your fit for work its disgusting adn a joke but thank od for the tribunal service and the court of law....they know what they r doing its just a shame peope like myself who are genuine have to eb made mopre unwell in a drawn out process to get a mesley (0 a week to survive on its a bloody joke and is all wrong

 

All im gouing to say is good luck with your asssessment and get as much medical evidence and supporting documents form psychiatrists/consultants.GPs etc becuase you are definately going to need them ....ESA was designed to make it near impossible to get the benefit so your transition form IB to ESA probably isnt going to be a smooth and easy one unfortubnately if i were u id contact CAB and get advice just incase you have to appeal later down the line and also they can help you fill out your ESA50 aswell

 

All the best ho[pe u feelin better soon and get the ESA probs sorted

Sobs

[sickovbeensick]

I've been found fit for work and put in the work group for ESA.

It does not bother me...!

 

By the way you can appeal this decision contact your local CAB or benefits advisor and they will assist you with your appeal.....they will hep you collect supporting medical evidence from consultants etc and psychiatrists etc and then they will put it to the DWP DM who wil decide if they decide against changing your group you can go to the tribunal service and take the matter to the court of law and if your days are that bad you shiould defintely dfo this its worth a shot and they will continue to pay your WRAG comoponent whilst the appeal gopes through....the WRAG group can be tough attending appointments regularly sent for interviews.....if u hav to take loads of meds and are unable to leave your house and stuff then the support group ios dfefinately for you contact CAB and they will give u the advise it sounds like you need!!!!

All the best anyways

[Nystagmite]

it sounds like IB was much easier to get on to

 

The descriptors seemed to be more relevant to working. If you met certain conditions, (registered blind, receive higher rate care, etc) you were exempt. Yet, under ESA, only a few groups of people are exempt.

 

I've been found fit for work and put in the work group for ESA.

 

You haven't been found fit for work. There's a possibility that you could return to work soon.

[eliotnpt]

Although I left a long post (page 3 of this thread) to give an idea of what has happened since I attended my ESA medical and, surprise surprise, failed with 0 points, I thought I would add a new direction this has all taken.

 

My appeal, plus medical certificate, plus note to request they continue paying my benefit (at the reduced rate) pending Tribunal, was received by the DWP in Aberdeen on 9-11-11 (they had to sign for it and I tracked it on the Post Office website). Then, on 18-11-11, I received the stock letter saying they were going to review my case before sending it to appeal. So, a full week from the time of delivery to the office before my case was picked up and a reply was sent.

 

A week later, on 23-11-11, I telephoned the DWP, explained my position, asked if the Decision Maker had reinstated my benefit at the lower rate pending Tribunal because my payday was today (25-11-11). The person I spoke with on the help line had no idea what I was talking about and transferred me, another conversation followed by another transfer, another conversation and yet another transfer, this time to the Job Centre in my city. I explained yet again what my query was only to be told that my local Job Centre did not deal at all with my case but, because I had been transferred so much, she took my details and said she would find out what was happening and phone me back.

 

An hour later she did, indeed, call me back. She apologised and said that she had been unable to find out any information at all other than my appeal was with a Decision Maker and that no action had been taken on any part of it or my request for benefit to be continued because "they are very busy there and have 60 new appeals a day". She knew I was not happy but it was not her fault, and I knew that she had been fobbed off. It seems that not even people working in the same government department can get information from the appeals section. However, she did say that she was surprised my case was being handled in Aberdeen when all the appeals she knew of from Wales were handled in Llanelli. We ended the conversation on good terms (always the best since I might one day speak with her again) and she said that something could be done that afternoon if the Decision Maker picked my case up again.

 

Thursday, yesterday, still no more heard so I emailed my MP with some information and asked if it would be possible for her to contact the DWP and try to find out what was happening regarding reinstating my benefit pending the Tribunal. Within minutes I had an email from a person working in her office saying my MP was in the Commons but had been contacted and would be pleased to take up my query. I was asked for some more details so that they were prepared when speaking with the DWP but advised it could take up to 15 days before I heard anything more from them. It was a long shot, but I think one worth taking.

 

Today, Friday 25-11-11, when I should have had some benefit paid into my bank there was... nothing. I have food, I have tea and coffee, I wouldn't consider myself desperate, but the point is, they knew I was due for a payment of benefit today, it was made clear in my covering letter with the original appeal submission, as was my request for benefit to continue to be paid but at the lower rate. They knew, and still have appeared to do nothing.

 

I was wondering if anyone else had experienced something similar when they lodged their appeal (in my case I was previously receiving Incapacity Benefit and had not actually received ESA) and, if so, what course of action they would recommend. I might not be desperate today, but by next week I will be.

[mad rat woman]

I have just failed my atos" medical" and am filing an appeal, I suffer with chronic fatigue so guess i am an easy target! I also have athritis in the spine,The "health care profesional" had zero knowledge of my condition and had never heard of graded exercise which is common practise when treating fatigue patients I expect I will have to take it to tribuneral but i will fight them on this! I have read they have failed people with cancer on chemo! They also failed a man in a wheel chair with one arm! My doctor said they get a bonus for every person they kick off!

[Gbarbm]

Hi Eliotnpt,

the treatment you suffered is compleletly unacceptable....get yourself down the DWP office (take a flask and some sandwiches as you need to be prepared for a long wait) and demand to see someone who can make an interim payment to you (tell them you are in financial harship and any bills you receive you will send to the DWP for them to pay seeing as how they have your money) and e mail your MP again.

As my dear old Nan used to say "squeaky cogs get the most oil"

[richardscanlon]

Which could instead go to sorting out the state of the benefits system, NHS, etc.

 

Or even used to expose the real benefit cheats both in and out of parliment

[patrickq1]

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2012/11/28/two-regulations-could-hold-the-key-to-winning-esa-appeals/