2005 Ford Focus TDCi. Turbo issues / new engine required?

[Stumble On]

Sensible head on now. Stumbleon, having thought about this over the weekend and talked to a couple of proper technicians this week I think you are going to have an uphill struggle to pin the blame on Ford or one of their dealers, it might be common and you might think that information was withheld which contributed to further failures but it's proving it.

 

Sure... I realise that getting any kind of satisfaction from Ford will be pretty much impossible.

 

A family friend who has been in a similar position with a Peugeot advised me that I should just write the car off, sell it as scrap, and move on ASAP because these kinds of situations can get very depressing.

 

 

Actual Ford technicians that work in actual Ford dealers, today actually, agree the hearsay around the injector seal is not conclusive. Not everyone can be wrong.

 

Thanks for asking around for me.

 

 

I would suggest the way forward is to try and do a deal with the non-franchised garage to have another look and come to a definitive diagnosis as to why the 3rd turbo has failed. Maybe even get it tested at the suppliers whom I believe are Garrett. They might be able to tell why it failed.

 

Something needs to be done and you need some pretty defined answers to enable you to decide which is the next best thing to do.

 

Are there any specific questions I should ask? Or will simply asking them to establish why the 3rd turbo has failed be enough?

If they establish that the oil ways are blocked again, could I reasonably expect them to look for the causes of carbon build-up free of charge?

 

Would I have to pay Garrett to test the turbo? I really cannot spend any more money on this car as things stand - it's been a month now, I need to buy another car for work and the costs so far on the Focus have already really messed things up for me financially.

[Hammy1962]

That's not exactly what i said is it! If you look at my history you will see I'm pretty much a Ford lover. You can be satisfied that, if this was a defined manufacturing fault Ford would be assisting you. But it's not and they are not.

 

If I was to hazard a guess I'd say the repeated failure is likely caused by something else. I know we've covered many things, just get them to have another look.

 

Google Garrett, ring them up and speak to them, they might help and they might tell you to get lost but at least you tried.

 

Are you sure it's not been mis-fuelled.......................................................

 

H

[Stumble On]

That's not exactly what i said is it!

 

I don't understand. What is this referring to?

 

 

If I was to hazard a guess I'd say the repeated failure is likely caused by something else. I know we've covered many things, just get them to have another look.

 

Since the repairers have already tried to fix this twice, I was wondering if there are any specific issues I should ask them to investigate this time, beyond just "taking another look". Mis-fuelling? Injector seals?

 

I have already discussed this 3rd failure with the repairers, who also discussed this with the Ford branch, and the official line so far is that the engine flush was insufficient. But this is just par for the course (allegedly) - sometimes the flush doesn't work no matter who is doing it, and it's my tough luck according to those who have seen the car so far.

 

 

Are you sure it's not been mis-fuelled.......................................................

 

H

 

I haven't misfuelled the car and the previous owner, when asked a couple of weeks ago, didn't recall ever misfuelling the car. I don't know what else I could do to be sure.

[Stumble On]

Just called the UK distributor for Garrett.

 

I mentioned I have a Ford Focus that has been through several turbos. Was immediately asked "1.6?".

 

Paraphrasing - Those engines are problematic. They should have been recalled by Ford, but weren't because there are too many out there now. It will keep blowing turbos due to carbon build-up, it doesn't matter what you do.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Stumble On

[Hammy1962]

Well there you are then, do a deal with the independent and get it fixed as cheaply as possible. Change the oil and filter every 5K and use medium quailty oil of the correct specification.

 

H

[heliosuk]

Well that's pretty definitive. When it comes to Ford stuff Hammy is the man.

 

So we are left with the actual root cause which is the bit open to debate let alone how to fix. Whichever way you look at it and is known the turbo is knackered, so how to get this repaired. It is possible to get them rebuilt or reconditioned units so would suggest stumble looks around for fixes for the turbo unit.

 

The next thing is the root cause and how to get around this. There is little point in doing this until the root cause is defined. The flushing could well be a contributory factor as to use flushing oil is a big no, no, on turbo engines, however I am not privy to the TSB. I am not so sure that any indication of mis fueling would cause the problem either as the fuel pump would give way first. Temperature differences between a FIesta and Focus can also be negated as this these refer to packaging differences.

 

If indeed it is a carbon build up that Garrett confirm then this is indicitive of an insufficient cooling system and or an oil burning issue and related EGR problems.

 

I cannot see any relationship with an injector leak exterior to the combustion chamber other than I hear down the grapevine that there is a particular problem with no. 3 cylinder suffering oil burning problems on a sister engine fitted to other models. Whether it's linked or not I don't know.

[mothy]

Hello all, this has made fascinating reading.

I have exactly the same issue with my focus 2005 1.6tdci. Had a turbo replaced in june that failed and was replaced under warranty. It has consequently blown a further 3 turbos whilst in the garage. By my own admission, I missed a service by 5000 miles, which is not insignificant i think. This has caused sludge etc to build up in the engine and it now needs replacing. The problem sits with the TSB. My garage only saw the TSB after fitting its 2nd or 3rd (i forget) turbo. The TSB states that on fitting a new turbo, the volume of oil reaching the turbo must be checked. If after 60 seconds running time the volume of oil reaching the turbo is less than 300ml then there is a deeper seated problem with the engine and further checks must be made before any further repair is made.

So my question is, (and perhaps I should start a new thread here, not sure but it seems relevant to this case) who is responsible for issuing TSB's? If my garage had seen this TSB in the very first instance, they could have identified the problem very early indeed resulting in far lesser costs and hassle.

[Stumble On]

So my question is, (and perhaps I should start a new thread here, not sure but it seems relevant to this case) who is responsible for issuing TSB's? If my garage had seen this TSB in the very first instance, they could have identified the problem very early indeed resulting in far lesser costs and hassle.

 

Hi Mothy

 

As I understand it, Ford are required to make the TSB available to those that ask for it, but that doesn't mean they are required to go out of their way to provide the information unfortunately. It would make sense if it were provided with each replacement turbo as standard, but such a move appears to be too generous for the likes of Ford.

 

A word of warning - even following the TSB to the letter is no guarantee. My car's oil flow at the turbo was measured at 3 times the recommended minimum when my 2nd replacement turbo was fitted, but it still failed a couple of months later.

 

The people who supply the replacement turbos in the UK think that the engine should have been recalled by Ford. Make of that what you will.

 

I have heard that other manufacturers have stopped making replacement turbos for this engine, as they were fed up with being blamed for repeated failures. Make of that what you will.

 

Good luck!

[BrazilianCCK]

Not able to help on the engineering front to the same level as the guys here, but these Ford 1.6 diesels have two well known issues in the trade which is the leaking injectors and turbo failures (I thought it was a case of diesel leaking past the seals and contaminating the oil by thinning and coating the turbo bearings causing the turbo failures, but hey what do I know! )

 

What is hard to figure is why basically the same engine in Peugeots, Minis etc do not give the same problems, which would point to an inherent flaw in Fords adaptation of the engine, but getting that proven would be extremely hard.

 

I think your claim lies fair and square with repairing garage - whilst the engineering theorising here is interesting, in terms of common law the work they carried out would be deemed to be sub standard in the eyes of a reasonable person and the fact that they were unaware of the TSB is neither here nor there - the are offering mechanical repairs in the course of their business and should turn away work they are not competent for.

[Stumble On]

What is hard to figure is why basically the same engine in Peugeots, Minis etc do not give the same problems, which would point to an inherent flaw in Fords adaptation of the engine, but getting that proven would be extremely hard.

 

This is what is ridiculous to me as a complete layman. How can so many people be suggesting that Ford screwed up somehow, yet they can get away with it?

 

I think your claim lies fair and square with repairing garage - whilst the engineering theorising here is interesting, in terms of common law the work they carried out would be deemed to be sub standard in the eyes of a reasonable person and the fact that they were unaware of the TSB is neither here nor there - the are offering mechanical repairs in the course of their business and should turn away work they are not competent for.

 

Sure... but they're essentially turning away the work now, which leaves me pretty stuck, doesn't it? Going elsewhere would put me back at square one in terms of costs.

 

Besides, I'm not sure how many experienced mechanics out there (who have yet to come across this particular issue) would have the humility to declare a Ford Focus to be a challenging fix. It's not the most exotic of cars!

 

In other online discussions I've read about people getting the same treatment from Ford themselves - a failed fix, then a diagnosis of "new engine required". So I don't think it's a simple case of incompetence, if taking it to the company that built the car brings about a similar conclusion. This thread itself and the ensuing engineer chest beating proves that the causes of the underlying issue are far from clear, yet everyone seems to reckon they'd fix it better than the next guy.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Stumble On

[scaniaman]

There is something very strange about this thread. I assume that the Focus engine is the one developed jointly between the Ford group and Pug/Cit Group. They call this engine the DV6. As Brazilian says, there is no large scale turbo/no3 injector problem with the "Frenchies".

To the best of my knowledge, other marques within the Ford group ie Mazda, Volvo and the bmw mini, also do not have this problem with the 1.6 diesel. So why Ford?

FMC have a poor reputation for dealer/ customer assistance----KA seat belt anchorage, Mondeo left drag and Mondeo front springs are but a few problems they ignore .

Sorry i can't be of any help.

PS. Your not driving on boi diesel by any chance??

[Stumble On]

To the best of my knowledge, other marques within the Ford group ie Mazda, Volvo and the bmw mini, also do not have this problem with the 1.6 diesel. So why Ford?

FMC have a poor reputation for dealer/ customer assistance----KA seat belt anchorage, Mondeo left drag and Mondeo front springs are but a few problems they ignore .

Sorry i can't be of any help.

PS. Your not driving on boi diesel by any chance??

 

Nope - I'm not running Bio Diesel or anything like that. The car has been run pretty lightly and normally since I bought it and had 2 oil changes in the past 12 months with Ford's recommended oil. Only 11,000 miles driven since December 2009.

 

I think my only option now is to sell it as "spares or repair" to someone who knows what they're doing.

[cornelius brooks]

I'm sorry Hammy1962.

The spelling is caused by the small key pad on my phone ! perhaps I should only reply when I have access to my PC.

 

I agree with your comments, but I have to add that all the turbo's I have been involved in replacing have not failed. I must add that I insist on increased oil changes and that the strict guidelines to oil drainage is adhered too.

Interestingly I have placed temp sensors on both turbo's and cylinder heads and in addition looked at oil contamination over a period with different diesel oils. Interestingly the temperature of the engine cylinder head and turbo run considerably higher in the Focus compared with the Fiesta 1.6TDCi, which isn't so notorious for turbo's and the P207

 

Oil and fuel testing with a well known American Fuel giant in the past has created an additional interest in engine failures. I would suggest that investigation into the types of fuel users are burning may well assist to find more answers.

I often used to find that certain problems could often be regional, relating to Fuel.

 

What do you mean by strict guidelines to oil drainage?

[cornelius brooks]

Hi heliosuk, i was thinking about taking the metal filter out of the oil feed pipe to the turbo, splitting the pipe and installing a bigger changable inline filter. Do you think this would prolong life to the turbo?

[heliosuk]

It's not exactly my area of expertise but from what I do know that removing any area of filtration is an no no. However then by adding an additional filter what useful purpose would this serve? If it was a filtration problem then the initial filter should catch any debris. Then again you need to consider flow rates as an additional filter would restrict this and probably cause more problems. One answer would be to to change the oil and filter on a more regular basis as has been suggested by Guru Hammy.

[dynomutt]

good to know

[Kaluki]

Hi Guys, (and gals)

 

I bought a focus 1.6 TDI on 13th october 2011 3 months later turbo goes, you all know the story, my usual mechanic wont touch it, nor will an independent ford mechanic, ford mechanic said to take it back to dealers i bought it from, phoned consumer agency, so i can go 'armed', i do a have case. Goods not of satisfactory quality and not fit for purpose, (1979 sale of goods act) have to put it in writing. will let you know outcome.

[aturnerman]

Hi guys

I own a Ford Gmax which has done just over 77 thousand miles, the turbo has failed and I like many owners had no idea of the problems I would face if I have a replacement turbo, my independent garage will not entertain the work, this is when I first heard of the problem, having read the post on this site and on others I am in a quandry as what to do, I have arranged to take it to a Ford main dealer next week for an assessment of the repairs.

What I cannot understand is how the original turbo has lasted for all these miles, and yet the replacement only last a short period. are you saying that the leaking injector seal is something that caused the turbo to fail in the last few miles? and if all the injectors are replaced I should expect a resonable mileage.

Why with all these problems the information has not been forwarded to all owners perhgaps the Sun will take up the challenge against Ford, or do we tell the world not to buy a Ford or any car fitted with a TDCI engine. Aturnerman

[sailor sam]

Hi guys

I own a Ford Gmax which has done just over 77 thousand miles, the turbo has failed and I like many owners had no idea of the problems I would face if I have a replacement turbo, my independent garage will not entertain the work, this is when I first heard of the problem, having read the post on this site and on others I am in a quandry as what to do, I have arranged to take it to a Ford main dealer next week for an assessment of the repairs.

What I cannot understand is how the original turbo has lasted for all these miles, and yet the replacement only last a short period. are you saying that the leaking injector seal is something that caused the turbo to fail in the last few miles? and if all the injectors are replaced I should expect a resonable mileage.

Why with all these problems the information has not been forwarded to all owners perhgaps the Sun will take up the challenge against Ford, or do we tell the world not to buy a Ford or any car fitted with a TDCI engine. Aturnerman

 

You need to start you own thread.

[grimep]

As this thread contains a lot of speculation as to the cause of the carbonisation which may be resposible for turbo failure in the Ford DV6 engine, I thought I'd mention that I've seen a different theory on the Sinspeed website...a blocked Diesel Particulate Filter. I have no idea if this is more plausible than the leaking injector seal theory, perhaps an expert could add their thoughts.

 

Unfortunately this forum wont let me post a link to the info but if you search sinspeed dot co dot uk for "ford-focus-dpf-1-6tdci-16v-turbocharger-failed-rebuilds-stock-available" you should find their reasoning.

 

It would be interesting to know how many turbo failures are on 1.6TDCi's fitted with a DPF, as opposed to those without.

 

Perhaps the true cause is a mixture of factors and perhaps some other unknown: leaking injectors, blocked DPF and late oil servicing?

[Razor2006]

Hello!, guess what - I have a 2005 focus 1.6 tdci with a blown turbo!. Mechanic says don't waste your money on new turbo and pipe kit as it will blow again... New engine only option @ £3500!!. Spoke to fords about financial assistance, apparently, it's not a common problem and they have never heard of it before!!. Focus 1.6 TDCI FSH, 92,000 miles - Worthless!!

[Kaluki]

I have written to watchdog with this problem, asking them to get an answer from ford. matbe you should too?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/gotastory/

[heliosuk]

Re post 45, another load of speculative rubbish with little or no substance to back it up.

 

All the posts here relate to high mileage used 1.6 TDCi Fords. By definition the likelyhood of a small displacement engine ancillary parts failing is greater than a larger displacement one.

 

You can read one or two hundred reports of failures on the net but you don't hear of the 100's of thousands of these engines that have not failed or the engines that have done 200,000 miles with no issue. The measure of whether or not there is a problem is done on a repairs per thousand basis and time in service.

 

So unless you are privy to this info or can get hold of it or know how to challenge it, writing to watchdog and whinging is a waste of their time and yours as they will come out with this data and show it is not a recognised problem.

 

It's all pretty routine stuff and not rocket science. If the data shows/showed there is/was a problem then they would take action.

[fatrobot42]

Hi Just joined and am due "maybe not now" to but a 1.6 tdci this week. This thread frightened the life out of me, but more research shows this DV6 and DV4 engine has a stock problem and it all points to the injectors seals that causes carbon build up in the oil feeder and return pipes thus killing the turbo bearings.

 

There are obviously a lot of very knowledgeable people on here but these problems span across Citroen, Mazda and other makes using the shared PSA Ford 1.6 TDCI unit.

 

I'm no Auto engineer, electronics being my background, but the no smoke without fire adage applies here , there just too much evidence to say this platform has a problem generally to ignore it.

 

I'm amazed this hasn't hit the headlines, but as the previous poster pointed out this is dependant upon the failure rate per thousand etc, and if you consider how many of these DV6 units are out there across this shared engine is this a massive problem or just a problem for what Ford might consider to be an acceptable failure rate. I don't know and am not sure of where to go with this at the moment.

 

Perhaps a flush, replace both feeder and return pipes and also use low SAP oil and if taken all the way replace the injectors seals across all four cylinders.

 

Check out these links, makes very stark reading. :-

 

theturboguy.com/psa-ford-dv6-engine---warning.htmlxxxxx

volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=154095////////////

berlingoforum.co.uk/showthread.php?tid=1149&page=3yyyyyyyy

kelsey-forums.co.uk/cgi-bin/cmm/YaBB.pl?num=1296579835zzzzzzzzz]

c4owners.org/plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?136061sssssssssss

peugeotcentral.co.uk/ftopicp-49692.htmlvvvvvvvvvvvv

 

soory u will have to add the internet prefix and remove the letter suffix due to posting rules on this site. Sorry mr administrator.

 

Would one you chaps please be so go at to send the the FORD TSB so I have have a look at it in order to a make rational decision about whether I risk buying one of these as a cheap car to run and own.

 

Thanks.

[Bandit127]

There are some links on the web for those who have this engine (PSA DV6, so not just fitted to Fords).

 

If I had one of these engines, I would be getting the following procedure done just in case:

http://www.forteuk.co.uk/ForteAdmin/Bulletine_PDF/46tech%20bull%20diesel%20dv6.pdf

 

And then I would halve the oil change interval (using Ford oil and filter). Most people can do this at home for less than £50.

http://bigjohnd.org.uk/CCC/OilChange-DV6.pdf

 

There is a how-to on changing the injector seals here:

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/injector-removal-and-replacement-process-psa-dv6-engines

A complex procedure needing special tools.

 

From my knowledge of cars and oils I think one missed oil change could well kill this engine - due to the carbon in the oil falling out of suspension. Oil has a limited capacity for suspending contaminants (generally the better the oil, the better that capacity is).