Ircas

[fluteboy]

I am currently dealing with IRCAS/IAS, regarding an Unpaid Fare Notice.

 

Anyone who has had dealings with them will be aware that they choose to hide behind a PO Box number, rather than have us know their actual address. Why they choose to be so cowardly, I do not know. Also, sending out mail with a return address in Buckinghamshire is a little suspicious.

 

A little research on the Net reveals that IRCAS and IAS are trading names for Independent Transport Associates Limited or ITAL. Under this name, they have a website that lists their actual address as the following:

 

Unit 2-3, First Floor, Petersfield Office Park

Bedford Road

Petersfield

Hampshire

GU32 3QF

 

In my last letter to them, I have sent it to this address, pointing out to them that I am aware of the details, in spite of their cowardliness.

 

Another great resource on the Net is the SayNoTo0870 site, which will provide the actual telephone numbers for ITAL/IRCAS/IAS. Just a search for "IRCAS" will bear fruit.

 

For your information, this is what I put in my last letter to them:

 

Please be aware that this Notice has been addressed to your actual address, and not the PO Box number that you like to hide behind.

 

I will be sharing these details with the many “Consumer Action” forums that are kind enough to devote much time and effort in dealing with troublesome companies such as yourself. This shall also include the disclosure of your various telephone numbers beginning with 01730.

 

Do bear in mind that the information I have obtained about your company is readily available on the Internet. It is not exactly hidden from public view, and will therefore be of great benefit to those who find themselves troubled and/or distressed by your practices.

The practice of sending mail to a company's real address, as opposed to their preferred PO Box address is a great way of repaying the fear-factor that these companies tend to dish out. It has certainly helped me in dealing with debt collection agencies, that's for certain! When they know that you know of their true whereabouts, they are not so sure of themselves, and will tend to back off a little sooner!

[dx100uk]

dealing......

 

tell them to go away off

 

this is not a penatly fare but a speculative invoice

 

dx

[Old-CodJA]

dealing......

 

tell them to go away off

 

this is not a penatly fare but a speculative invoice

 

dx

I would be a little careful.

 

IRCAS / ITAL and RPSS are both officially engaged to deal with the administration and collection of Penalty Fares on behalf of the Train Operating Companies.

 

This is not the same as dealing with a PCN. You will find the relevant legislation by reading The Transport Act

 

The Penalty Fare is an option of a civil remedy in a case where an offence might otherwise be alleged and can be cancelled and the matter referred for prosecution of that offence where appropriate at any time.

 

The Penalty Fare Notice is handed to the traveller at the time of the incident. The letter is simply a reminder, they do not have to send any reminders as the traveller was given all relevant information in writing when detected without a valid ticket.

 

Many hundreds of unpaid Penalty Fare Notices are cancelled and summonsed for prosecution every year.

 

 

I am currently dealing with IRCAS/IAS, regarding an Unpaid Fare Notice.

Anyone who has had dealings with them will be aware that they choose to hide behind a PO Box number, rather than have us know their actual address. Why they choose to be so cowardly, I do not know. Also, sending out mail with a return address in Buckinghamshire is a little suspicious.

 

I HAVE NO CONNECTION WITH IRCAS / ITAL, but feel it is essential to put the record straight here.

 

The post above is absolutely untrue – they do not hide from anyone

 

simply google ITAL or IRCAS and go directly to their web address at www.ital-uk.com

 

You will find this as their contact details: http://firefly.ital-uk.com/page.aspx?id=2372

All the relevant telephone numbers are clearly displayed along with the Bedford Road, Petersfield address. I accept that you might not like the premium rate 0844 numbers, neither do I, but that is not the same as saying that they are hiding!

 

For what my comments are worth, I suggest that if more people respond in the way that you suggest, it is likely to lead to far more prosecutions.

 

 

 

Imagine for a moment that you are staff at Petersfield (IRCAS) or Portsmouth (RPSS) and you get the response you suggest, a sort of ‘I know where you live’ reply to a legitimate letter concerning the issue of a Penalty Fare Notice. If that is the response received, I guess a higher percentage of these assessments might well be decided along the following lines:

1. the traveller has shown that they have been correctly identified
   
2. the traveller’s response makes clear that he / she does not intend to pay
   
3. the traveller has not offered an acceptable appeal to the issue of this notice
   
4. there is evidence of an offence of travelling without a valid ticket contrary to Byelaw or other legislation
   
5. Decision - cancel the penalty fare opportunity
   
6. Further action - refer for prosecution.
   

Good luck.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Old-CodJA
added information

[SRPO]

As OC has said, dont confuse these people with the likes of Roxburghe & Graham White. They send a couple of letters & wont text or call you, if you dont pay the fine/fare they just send it back to the TOC for prosecution in CRIMINAL court.

[dx100uk]

must be getting my names mixed up

 

thanks guys

 

dx

[Stigy]

As OC has said, IRCAS are not the same as a PPC or their 'debt collectors' and will not hesitate to refer UFNs and PFNs back to the TOC for prosecution at the Magistrates' Court. The way I see it, fluteboy, in most cases where people have received UFNs, they've got off lightly in that all they are being asked to pay is the single fare for the journey they have made.

[RPI]

Whats the actual story behind the UFN?

[Grotesque]

The head of IRCAS is allegedly the wife of the ex-head of Prosecutions for National Express East Anglia ('ex' due to his somewhat abrupt and unexplained departure, I believe), who himself is a close friend of the head of the NEEA Revenue Protection department.

 

I use the the word 'allegedly' for the sake of CAG's safety; in conversation I would say 'If I'm wrong, sue me!'

 

LOL

 

...useless fact of the day

[Old-CodJA]

The head of IRCAS is allegedly the wife of the ex-head of Prosecutions for National Express East Anglia ('ex' due to his somewhat abrupt and unexplained departure, I believe), who himself is a close friend of the head of the NEEA Revenue Protection department.

 

I use the the word 'allegedly' for the sake of CAG's safety; in conversation I would say 'If I'm wrong, sue me!'

 

LOL

 

...useless fact of the day

 

 

Correct in part, but not in all details. You have PM

[AOK]

As OC has said, IRCAS are not the same as a PPC or their 'debt collectors' and will not hesitate to refer UFNs and PFNs back to the TOC for prosecution at the Magistrates' Court. The way I see it, fluteboy, in most cases where people have received UFNs, they've got off lightly in that all they are being asked to pay is the single fare for the journey they have made.

Can you explain that to me IRCAS ? Is it at the discretion of the person issuing weather to issue a UFN or a PFN.

My son is a student with a student card and entitled to travel at the cheaper rate. He could not find his student card which he had on him, it must have fallen in the linning of his coat, he has it now. He had the cheaper ticket which is not valid without the student railcard.

However when student rail cards are issued a form is filled out by the student, verified my a member of uni staff and completed by the station master at the station where it was purchased. My son was issued with a PFN.

Edited October 17, 2011 by AOK

[AOK]

 

Can you explain that to me IRCAS ? Is it at the discretion of the person issuing weather to issue a UFN or a PFN.

My son is a student with a student card and entitled to travel at the cheaper rate. He could not find his student card when asked for his ticket. he had it on him, it must have fallen in the linning of his coat, he has it now.

However when student rail cards are issued a form is filled out by the student, if over 26 years old it must be verified my a member of uni staff and completed by the station master at the station where it was purchased.

....

[Old-CodJA]

IRCAS = Independent Revenue Collection and Support

 

No, a PFN (Penalty Fare Notice) can ONLY be issued on rail services where there is a Penalty Fare Scheme in operation that has been approved by the DfT.

 

On company services where there is no approved PFN scheme, the operator can only issue a UFN (Unpaid Fare Notice) or report the travel irregularity for further action.

 

Where Railcards are concerned, if the Railcard cannot be shown with the ticket at the time of travel then the ticket is invalid as per terms & conditions accepted at the time of application. The condition is clearly printed and states

 

"You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full single fare as appropriate for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting your journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare."

 

I think that is a very clear condition and the reason that some people ultimately face prosecution in these cases is that they not only fail to show a valid railcard, but also refuse, or fail to pay the fare due when asked.

 

It may seem harsh to some minds, but I think it is very clear. If you do not like the terms and conditions applicable to the agreement, then do not buy the railcard and do not enter into that agreement.

 

As the traveller, your son could write and appeal the decision.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[AOK]

I do not object to the terms and conditions and I doubt if my son does either. My son had his railcard on him he could not find it. He also had uni student id on him. Although all London students purchase the student railcard of course, it is a no brainer. What I object to is that the inspector has the discretion on weather or not to issue a PFN and purchase of the railcard is checkable, the form is endorsed by the stationmaster when it is purchased.

Students fill out the application form online and print it off. Terms conditions are notoriously unread, most members of the public just tick the box. However should the applicant choose to read the terms and conditions an Adobe window pops up warning them to "RESTRICT URLS AND ATTACHMENTS IN PDFS. Reader warns you any time you opena url weblink or any attachment the uses a disallowed file URLS or disallowed file types (for example EXE) are potentially dangerous because they can transfer or run programmes,macros or viruses that can damage your computer. You can add URLS " etc etc. The window is over 100 pages long and only for the very technically minded, it might be over 1,000 pages long for all I know I got fed up of clicking next after 100 pages.

[AOK]

I meant to add that most people will not risk damaging thier computer to read terms and conditions so had they chosen to read terms and conditions will just sign the form accepting terms and conditions and hand it in at the station. They can ask for a copy of terms and conditions at the station take it home ,read it and then hand in the application for the railcard they need , like yesterday. Or they can hand in the form and a take a copy of the terms and conditions to read after they have paid for the railcard. Its all a little messy and NOT user friendly

[Old-CodJA]

I do not profess to understand the technical aspects of the IT process in dealing with these matters online and you may like to take forward any observations with the relevant people, but, having chosen to 'tick' acceptance of the T&Cs, ignorance cannot be accepted as a defence.

 

The key thing is that the 'offence' is 'fail to show'

 

As I already said, your son may write and appeal. You can help him write the letter, but your personal observation will have no bearing on the matter, because you were not present. I can say from long experience (and I make no comment as to whether it's right or wrong) that lots of irrelevant conjecture and comment about what other people say has very little chance of getting the result he might desire.

 

Your son should explain what happened and ask the rail company to consider the circumstances and close the file in this instance.

 

They can say 'no'.

[MrGates]

You need to put yourself in the shoes of the person who issued the PFN, how were they to know if your son had a railcard or not? Most will but there is always people willing to abuse the system and this is why discretion cannot be shown in cases where the railcard cannot be produced at point of being asked, Also if buying the railcard at the ticket office when using the relevant application/leaflet you will find the t&c's in the back of the leaflet and this is given back to the customer when purchase is complete of the relevant railcard.

[andydd]

Ranting and raving and implying all sorts of accusations is not going to help in this situation (or any !).

 

On rare occassion where I have travelled without the appropiate card, I have paid the PFN but at a later date written with proof that I had such a card at the time but simply forgot and received a refund of the PFN.

 

Andy

[AOK]

Thank you IRCAS. I was looking up information online to respond to the letter threatening my son with a criminal record. He is so busy right now that I decided to help sort it out as it might get left on the back burner. I came across this website and was interested to learn that the issuing of UFNs / PFNs is discretionary and I appreciate your response.

I thought I covered why I was surprised that the inspector issued a PFN to a student with student id. The student railcard is a Godsend for students and they ALL get one. You seem more defensive than helpfull so I am closing the thread.

[MrGates]

Student id still doesn't prove that your son was in possesion of a valid railcard, not ALL students have railcards as some councils will offer assisted travel to students, I don't think the answers to your questions are defensive but most probably the answers you are least likely to want to hear.

[honeybee13]

Thank you IRCAS. I was looking up information online to respond to the letter threatening my son with a criminal record. He is so busy right now that I decided to help sort it out as it might get left on the back burner. I came across this website and was interested to learn that the issuing of UFNs / PFNs is discretionary and I appreciate your response.

I thought I covered why I was surprised that the inspector issued a PFN to a student with student id. The student railcard is a Godsend for students and they ALL get one. You seem more defensive than helpfull so I am closing the thread.

 

Hello there. I'm sorry you feel like that. The guys here are mainly from the transport industry [not me though] and I think were just trying to explain the rules to you. One thing I have learned from the forum is that your son needs to write the letter and not yourself, if he's over 18.

 

I don't think you can close a thread that you didn't start, btw. I could be wrong.

 

My best, HB

[SRPO]

The 16-25 railcard must be either bought from a ticket office or obtained by opening a student bank account with certain banks that offer the incentive.

They are not free & not every student gets one, the officer was quite correct to issue the PFN in my view & your son has the right of appeal. PFN's do not attract a criminal record.

[Old-CodJA]

Thank you IRCAS. I was looking up information online to respond to the letter threatening my son with a criminal record. He is so busy right now that I decided to help sort it out as it might get left on the back burner. I came across this website and was interested to learn that the issuing of UFNs / PFNs is discretionary and I appreciate your response.

I thought I covered why I was surprised that the inspector issued a PFN to a student with student id. The student railcard is a Godsend for students and they ALL get one. You seem more defensive than helpfull so I am closing the thread.

 

No, ALL students do not get a 16-25 Young Person Railcard. THAT is the only railcard that authorises a discount off rail tickets for students.

 

As SRPO points out, this is a Railcard that has to be purchased, unless it is issued as an offer when the individual opens a bank account (NatWest) or part of a similar offer elsewhere.

 

You may consider my comments 'defensive', that's a matter for you, but your son is very unlikely to succeed in any appeal given the approach you seem to have adopted on his behalf. If you don't like suggestions made by people who work with these matters every day, that is your prerogative.

 

If your son is over 18 years of age and you persist in the kind of approach your post suggests, you may find that the TOC exercise their right to deal only with your son. He was the traveller.