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Parking 'fine' in supermarket car park


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Hi, having read the threads on the forum I'd be interested in some further advice.

 

My local supermarket which I've used for years have recently been using a PPC who have been handing tickets out left right and centre.

 

I initially advised them when I noticed them that I was parking in a disabled bay because I am disabled, and wasn't displaying a blue badge because for one thing, I understood they had no relevance on private property. I further explained I was going in to speak to the store manager re: this matter. In the main time, while I was in speaking to the store manager, the attendant I'd spoken to had put a ticket on my car.

 

Following my discussion with a local manager, I received a telephone call from the store's head office, and spoke to a gentleman regarding the issue. While he accepted there may be a discrepancy in the demand for blue badges (notwithstanding any discussion on whether or not the blue badge belonged to the person parking), I explained I understood the desire to see only suitable customers accessed certain areas. He assured me he would take care of the ticket, and explained while the store policy was to request a blue badge be displayed, it wasn't a policy set in stone, common sense being more important in the application of any store policy and that this was a matter he would take forward. I asked that he also make his managers aware that the policy wasn't set in stone, and that the "common sense approach" he mentioned should be actively encouraged more widely.

 

On another occasion shortly after this, I had met a friend in the store car park who is also disabled but who had received a ticket. The same attendant I'd dealt with previously came over, and when he informed my friend to go and get his blue badge and bring it back to the store, I asked him under what authority he was asking to see the badge ( I understand only certain people can make this request and failure to do so could lead to a substantial fine). He addressed me by name and in effect told me not to interfere. I asked where he got my name from, but he refused to tell me.

 

Today, while shopping, the same attendant put yet another ticket on my car. He invited me to accompany him to speak to the store manager, which I went to do. When the manager arrived, I re-iterated the previous conversations I'd had with staff, and the comment from head office that the policy isn't set in stone. I was asked for contact details for the manager to contact me later, at which point I advised I had provided these already to both local management and head office. I was told that it was unlikely they would provide these details to this manager due to the Data Protection regulations. I therefore asked who had provided my name to the attendant. The attendant then denied having used my name or being aware of it. I assured the manager I had witnesses to the occasion where he had used my name, and that I found it rather alarming that he should deny it now.

 

Ultimately, what I'm looking for, is whether it was reasonable for me to continue parking there (i.e. that the blue badge system doesn't operate on private ground), and that following the discussion with the store's head office staff and their confirmation that the policy isn't set in stone, it was reasonable to expect them to have confirmed this with their local managers and parking attendants. Too, as the attendant was obviously aware I was disabled, that he should not have continued to put further tickets on my car.

 

Sorry about the length of the post, but it seemed relevant to provide a lot of information.

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Its a private car park they can make any conditions they like as its their land, so if they decide a blue badge is required so be it. Charging you for failing to comply is another matter completely but its perfectly acceptable to require you to display it just as its perfectly acceptable to demand ID that you are over 21 to buy beer despite the legal age being 18, its their shop so they make the rules.

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In reality they are issuing you with a penalty of fine. Neither of which they can legally recover from you as they have no authority to issue a fine or panalty. All they can do legally is take you to court to recover their 'losses or damages' they incurred from you parking there. My guess is that the car park is free so it's going to be difficult for them to caluclate their losses. If they were to take you to court, they would need to convince the judge that their parking 'charge' notice is not in fact a penalty. No doubt you will receive a few 'threat-o-grams' in the post, some may even have big red scary words on them which are designed to make you pay.

 

Personally, I would write to the store's HO and indicate that unless they put a leash on these highway men, you will shop elsewhere.

 

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Its a private car park they can make any conditions they like as its their land, so if they decide a blue badge is required so be it. Charging you for failing to comply is another matter completely but its perfectly acceptable to require you to display it just as its perfectly acceptable to demand ID that you are over 21 to buy beer despite the legal age being 18, its their shop so they make the rules.

 

That's not necessarily true. Under the DDA, the store is required to make "reasonable adjustments" so that disabled people may use the facility. If this means dedicated parking close to the entrance, then there is a clear onus on the store to provide it - they can't select only disabled people who also are blue badge holders - it must apply to all disabled people where there is a need.

 

I think it might pay dividends if the OP wrote a letter pointing this out, to the manager of the store and request that he/she informs the parking attendant that this vehicle may use the disabled spaces. It is up to them to stop hassling this person when they appear to have a right to use the spaces available.

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I've read all of the posts up to this point, as a BB holder, and I decline to comment on them - in my mind they all have their merits.

 

However, you did write "as the attendant was obviously aware I was disabled".

 

So why don't you apply for a blue badge, stick it in your windscreen, and I was going the write, "and stop being bloody minded", but I decided not to.

 

Sam

All of these are on behalf of a friend.. Cabot - [There's no CCA!]

CapQuest - [There's no CCA!]

Barclays - Zinc, [There's no CCA!]

Robinson Way - Written off!

NatWest - Written off!

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pers i'd ignore them

 

they've had enough time off you already

 

they can put as many speculative invoices on your car as they like

 

disabled or otherwise, any lines or bays on private land are graffiti anyhow with no statute in law whatsoever

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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green_and_ mean "...if they decide a blue badge is required so be it."

 

As I understood it, the blue badge has no relevance on private land, and only certain people are entitled to demand you display or show it. If this has changed can you provide a link to the relevant information please? Thanks.

 

sailor sam "My guess is that the car park is free so it's going to be difficult for them to caluclate their losses."

 

Yes, it is a free car park. I asked the store manager if he could explain where the loss arises from, but he didn't have an answer.

 

Jamberson "the store is required to make "reasonable adjustments" so that disabled people may use the facility. If this means dedicated parking close to the entrance, then there is a clear onus on the store to provide it - they can't select only disabled people who also are blue badge holders - it must apply to all disabled people where there is a need."

 

I had asked this of both the local store managers and the manager from HO to clarify where in the Equality Act 2010 it lists only people with a blue badge have rights to this provision. As I had made both the store and their parking attendants aware I was disabled, and based on the conversation with the HO manager who informed me the policy of requiring a blue badge isn't "set in stone", I would have thought was sufficient.

 

Thanks for the replies.

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Those "reasonable adjustments" would also include not time-limiting disabled drivers who may have to take more time than that "demanded" by the parking company to complete their shopping. That's another clear breach of the Equality Act.

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sameagle I haven't had a need for a blue badge previously as I usually don't go anywhere that requires it, getting me to work being the main use (they already make provision for disabled staff and customers). If the blue badge has no relevance on private land, why else would I need it?

 

dx100uk Fair enough! Most of the guidance I've read on the site appears to be where they can't identify the driver, whereas they are aware in this case, so I was wondering if I'm more likely to be at risk from a court finding against me.

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Here is a BBC article about time-limiting disabled drivers. It's all very well the supermarket saying you can ask for that extra time, but many PPCs use CCTV to register cars entering and leaving the car-park. How is the supermarket going to convey the information to the PPC that that particular driver should be exempt? I doubt a busy manger would have the time to do that.

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dx100uk Fair enough! Most of the guidance I've read on the site appears to be where they can't identify the driver, whereas they are aware in this case, so I was wondering if I'm more likely to be at risk from a court finding against me.

 

For what? did you damage the parking bay? As I previously said in post # 3, all they can claim for is losses or damages. What ever their ticket states will have to be qualified as a non-penalty/fine, something I don't imagine they will want to be tested in court.

 

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dx100uk Fair enough! Most of the guidance I've read on the site appears to be where they can't identify the driver, whereas they are aware in this case, so I was wondering if I'm more likely to be at risk from a court finding against me.

 

For what? did you damage the parking bay? As I previously said in post # 3, all they can claim for is losses or damages. What ever their ticket states will have to be qualified as a non-penalty/fine, something I don't imagine they will want to be tested in court.

 

Ok, so the only thing they can legally do is ban me from the car park (therefore store) as advised by the manager if I don't display a blue badge if I were to continue to use a disabled bay.

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To be honest, I don't really see the problem here. If they want you to display your badge, why dont you? But in answer to your question, yes, they can ban you from the store if they want to be so pedantic. As previously has been stated, the DB scheme does not extend to private land BUT some land owners who provide disabled parking find that asking for the badge to be displayed is the easiest way to indentify those who should eb entitled to use those allocated bays. At the end of the day, would'nt it be easier for you to display your badge?

 

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To be honest, I don't really see the problem here. If they want you to display your badge, why dont you? But in answer to your question, yes, they can ban you from the store if they want to be so pedantic. As previously has been stated, the DB scheme does not extend to private land BUT some land owners who provide disabled parking find that asking for the badge to be displayed is the easiest way to indentify those who should eb entitled to use those allocated bays. At the end of the day, would'nt it be easier for you to display your badge?

 

Exactly!!

 

The BB may not have any legislation regarding its use off the highway, but I don't think I ever recall seeing anyone that has one kicking up a fuss when oferered free parking in non Council car parks? My local town centre NCP allows free parking for BB holders maybe I shoud start a petition demanding they pay as the badge is worthless?

How many pubs and clubs refuse entry without a valid driving licence or passport to prove your age? There is no legislation that states a passport is required to buy beer, does this mean anyone can demand to be served....no!

Just as stores can refuse to serve you for wearing a 'hoodie' they can demand you use a blue badge if taking up their offer of free parking. They cannot 'fine' or penalise you for failing to follow their terms and conditions however.

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As I mentioned above, I've never needed a blue badge previously, therefore don't have one. It has only become an issue since the local supermarket started using a PPC.

 

Mmm, well my mom is disabled nad has a badge but dosn't own a car! She uses it if she is carried in a car to take her shopping ect. I've never heard of anyone who owns/drives a car who is disabled but dosn't have a badge. Does that mean that you always pay when parking on a council run car park or on street pay & display?

 

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Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. I mainly use my car to get me to and from work which has provision for me as a disabled person. Any other location I typically go to has no restrictions. It is only since the use of the PPC that visits to my local supermarket have become an issue. Now you can say you have heard of someone who is disabled and doesn't have a Blue Badge! :)

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Ok, perhaps to clarify the issue of the blue badge, I've just went back and found it again on the DirectGov site. It quite clearly states

"Where the scheme does not apply

 

The scheme does not apply to off-street car parks, private roads and at most airports. However, parking spaces may be offered to badge holders, but do not assume you can park for free. [in parking areas where charges are applied, provision is sometimes made to exclude Blue Badge holders from making payment, sometimes for a limited time at least. Some of this provision is based on whether you also have a free tax disc as well.]

 

Misuse of the Blue Badge

 

Blue Badges are the property of local councils, who can take them away if they are misused.

Displaying the Blue Badge

 

When no parking concessions are being used [i understand this to mean in relation to the Blue Badge Scheme], Blue Badges should be removed from view. [As they have no relevance on private ground, then no concession can be applied to them and the rest of the Blue Badge guidance must surely come in to force]."

 

Perhaps the issue here is that some people appear to subscribe to the view that you are only entitled to the provisions of an entitled disabled person as outlined under the Equality Act if you have a Blue Badge. I'd appreciate clarification if this is indeed how the Act is being, and intended to be, read.

 

With regards whether Blue Badge holders should get free parking, that is not the issue here. I've never argued or questioned that point. That is up to those who provide the provision to decide if they want to exempt some people from payment. The issue here is whether the provision of and access to disabled parking areas should solely be based on a disabled person having a Blue Badge or not. Is that truly the only criteria accepted of deciding someone is disabled or not?

 

Comments in [ ] are mine and not from the source material.

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Firstly, I think as others say, it is your choice to pay them or not, you are not force to pay them.

 

However, I been on a lot of shopping center where there is no requirement for a blue badge, the results is, those space become free for all, meaning no space for the disable perople.

 

So do you perfer them to force the blue badge rules, where you will be able to park there when you applied a badge?

or you not like the blue badge arranagment, and want those space to be free for all?

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there is no requirement for BB's on a private car park!

 

any markings are purely graffiti!

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

there is no requirement for BB's on a private car park!

 

any markings are purely graffiti!

 

dx

 

Not true as I already pointed out many car parks offer free parking for blue badge holders if you don't display the badge you are in breach of the terms and conditions for free parking. As an example the national trust offer free parking if you have a blue badge if you don't its pay and display. It is not a criminal or parking contravention however so you cannot be fined.

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Agree, but I gusses those Harassment letters is enough to keep the average Joe without BB holder not to park there.I do sometimes get upset when I see people park at child space outside supermarket when they surely have no kid (No car sit in their car).I do think if you want to enjoy the system, then you make have to respect it.Neveless, If I am you, I will still not pay.

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P&C places have even less credibility than disabled spaces. What are they going to do next? have spaces just for red cars or for just for drivers called Kevin? The stupidest P&C sign I have seen is in our local Waitrose. It says "reserved for customers with children". Does that mean that as long as you have had a child sometime in your life you can park there, because it doesn't' say you have to have the child with you.

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The parent and child spaces are helpful - I speak from experience. If you have a small kid and a trolley load of shopping, then the kid will be sitting in the trolley seat. The extra space between the cars is a real help, both for getting child and trolley away from passing cars, and enabling you to open the door fully and get them into their car seat.

 

This is the problem - they play hard ball with PPCs, and so motorists respond in kind "it doesn't' say you have to have the child with you" - it's like saying, if I flout the rules, what are you going to do about it.

 

If they were more reasonable with people, there'd be more of a culture of good will on all sides, in my opinion.

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P&C places have even less credibility than disabled spaces. What are they going to do next? have spaces just for red cars or for just for drivers called Kevin? The stupidest P&C sign I have seen is in our local Waitrose. It says "reserved for customers with children". Does that mean that as long as you have had a child sometime in your life you can park there, because it doesn't' say you have to have the child with you.

 

Indeed, P&C spaces are moronic, nearly as much as "baby on board" signs in the back windows of cars

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