Disciplinary issue...Can my employer do this ?

[lfcfan]

I work in a family run butchers shop and could go on forever about things i'm not happy with there.Basically half the employees are family members of the owner and get away with what they like and rules are made up as they go along.But this is what i would greatly appreciate help with.

 

The other day i was late for work by 25 mins because i overslept.I walked in and went to go to speak to the overall manager to appologize.Before i could get to his offfice the manager of the back of the shop told me i have to go home.So i was sent home and have lost a days pay for being 25mins late and didn't even get to appologize or give an explanation.For all they know i could've had a family emegency or whatever.Ok i didn't but how were they to know that.I may also recieve a warning.

 

I have a lil history of lateness and this has happened before.I wasn't late once in the first 4 years i was there.But then i moved out and i was late about 6 times in a year and ended up getting a warning.But this is the first time i have been late in 8 months.

 

Can they do this ?.

 

I looked over my contract it has absolubtley nothing about lateness.I'm also on salary

[RachelMD]

Does your contract state your normal working hours and your salary?

Does your contract have any provision for your employer sending you home and docking your wages as you haven't worked, or docking your wages as a disciplinary sanction, or making deductions from your wages in any other circumstance?

[RachelMD]

You weren't suspended pending a disciplinary hearing by any chance? Have you been back to work since?

[lfcfan]

Ok erm here's what is written in my contract:

 

Working hours :

 

You will be employed on a full time basis.Working hours are

7:30am-6:30pm.The company may require you to vary this pattern of your working hours

if required on a temporary or permanent basis should the need arise

 

Salary and docking of wages:

Your annual gross salary is £xx,xxx-xx which will be paid weekly on Thursday of each week.

"XXXXX meats" may deduct from your salary any sums owed to you by "xxxxx meats" including

but not limited to outstanding loans,advances,overpayments and excess holiday

 

Which doesn't make sense as it says they may deduct sums owed to me from them.

 

As far as "provision for your employer sending you home"...Nothing at all.

 

Thanks for the quick reply by the way.

Edited July 25, 2011 by lfcfan

[lfcfan]

And no,i wasn't suspended.I havn't been back since as i have Sundays and Mondays off (this happened on Saturday).But i had this the last time i was late.I got sent home,got deducted a days pay and got a verbal warning.

[RachelMD]

Ok erm here's what is written in my contract:

 

Working hours :

 

You will be employed on a full time basis.Working hours are

7:30am-6:30pm.The company may require you to vary this pattern of your working hours

if required on a temporary or permanent basis should the need arise

 

Salary and docking of wages:

Your annual gross salary is £xx,xxx-xx which will be paid weekly on Thursday of each week.

"XXXXX meats" may deduct from your salary any sums owed to you by "xxxxx meats" including

but not limited to outstanding loans,advances,overpayments and excess holiday

 

Which doesn't make sense as it says they may deduct sums owed to me from them.Thanks for the quick reply by the way.

I presume it's a typo as, as you say, that doesn't make sense. Presumably, it's meant to read 'owed by you'.

It's not significant, if it went in front of a court I'm pretty certain that it would be seen as a genuine mistake. Courts don't like a party to benefit from genuine mistakes. (Not when the party is the employer, anyway:mad2:)

 

Hmmm. There's ambiguity here as the 'including but not limited to' statement arguably gives the employer authority to make a deduction.

But that is something that could be argued either way, IMO.

In law, for an employer to legally make a deduction from an employee's wage in this circumstance there has to be contractual provision.

 

Well, it depends what you want to do.

I think you've got good grounds to submit a forml grievance here, and claim that their docking of a days wage is an unlawful deduction of wages.

You'll probably, by the sound of 'em, fall out well and truly in the process (how long have you worked there?), but if you're not that bothered about facing the prospect of getting fired or treated like public enemy #1 and ending up having a good old jaunt through the employment tribunal to get your own way, there's a good chance you'll win.

 

If ya want to put in a grievance we can help you put it together.

[RachelMD]

BTW, does it actually say 'Docking of wages' as a heading on the contract, or did you put that?

[lfcfan]

I'm not sure what to do to be honest.I can't afford to be out of work and finding employment would be hard for me as i left school with no qualifications,can't drive and have been in this line of work since leaving school.I've been at my current employers for about 7 years now.I don't want to lose my job for the sake of a days pay,but at the same time i dont want to let them keep getting away with crap like this.When i say crap like this i mean things like:

 

I get sent home,get a days pay deducted and may also get a verbal warning for being late once in eight months yet a family friend of the owners (who is a manager) can be late twice in a wee, but it's okay because the snow was bad,

 

All employees were told no phones in the work place or they will be dismissed,yet i catch people on them all the time.I mention it to the owner and because the

employees who broke and still break that rule are family members of the owner,nothing happens.Even though an employee who isn't a family member has had disciplinary action against him for using his phone in the workplace.

 

One employee threatened to stab a manager and nothing happened yet you can make a genuine mistake and get a warning for it.For instance an employees

till is short or over.

 

Only non family members have contracts.I didn't want to sign it for many reasons But i was told if i don't sign it "there's the door,f**k off".We were told it's to cover us aswell as the company and make out they were doing us a favour but that's bs and i told them that.I said to them "the only reason we have them and family members don't is because we (non family members) are the only ones you might get rid of and you think you are covering yourselves".No one would even argue the fact with me.

 

We were given these contracts about six months ago by the way.The business has been open for eight years.Funny how they came about when the business's takings started to dip.I was actually told by four of the five managers that they are looking to get rid of two people,but i was safe and had nothing to worry about.I was given the names of the two they were looking to get shot of and naturally neither are members of the family.As it is now one of those two is on his final written warning and the other recieved a verbal about a month ago.There is also another employee on his final written.What a coincidence that no one had any diciplinary action taken against them what so ever until these contracts were drawn up and no family member has a thing against their name.They are giving warnings out

for the hell of it.

 

When we do get a warning they don't inform us in writing before hand that we will need to attend a hearing/meeting.We get told on the day "we need a word",then we are given our warnings.One guy even had his warning written up whilst he was on HOLIDAY.A complaint was made against him whilst he was on Holiday and he got it when he returned.It was written up before the guy could even give an explanation.

 

There are 10 employees,four are family members and one is a very close family friend.ALL of them are managers of course.The place is a joke and i'm at my wits end.Anyways like i said...could go on forever.If i had another job with the same pay to go to,i'd be out tomorrow.

[lfcfan]

BTW, does it actually say 'Docking of wages' as a heading on the contract, or did you put that?

 

I put that.It's actually under the heading "Remuneration and benefits

[Marieleeza]

I'm not sure what to do to be honest.I can't afford to be out of work and finding employment would be hard for me as i left school with no qualifications,can't drive and have been in this line of work since leaving school.I've been at my current employers for about 7 years now.I don't want to lose my job for the sake of a days pay,but at the same time i dont want to let them keep getting away with crap like this.When i say crap like this i mean things like:

 

There are 10 employees,four are family members and one is a very close family friend.ALL of them are managers of course.The place is a joke and i'm at my wits end.Anyways like i said...could go on forever.If i had another job with the same pay to go to,i'd be out tomorrow.

 

It sounds like a right hole. Are you sure you can find nothing better?

Licking roads clean with tougue seems preferable.

[lfcfan]

It sounds like a right hole. Are you sure you can find nothing better?

Licking roads clean with tougue seems preferable.

 

Lol.It is.I dread going in every morning and not knowing if they are planning to get rid of me or not plays on my mind.So then i have trouble sleeping and it's harder for me to get up on time.Worst part is the family are payed literally more than double the rest of us yet they are the ones who sit around on their asses whilst we're busting our asses off.Oh and we dont get paid overtime.So it's fine to sometimes spend an extra hour or too working for nothing but be late once in a while and that's it.Anything would be better but the pay here is more than i would get anywhere else for that line of work.How they can moan for

[RachelMD]

Lol.It is.I dread going in every morning and not knowing if they are planning to get rid of me or not plays on my mind.So then i have trouble sleeping and it's harder for me to get up on time.Worst part is the family are payed literally more than double the rest of us yet they are the ones who sit around on their asses whilst we're busting our asses off.Oh and we dont get paid overtime.So it's fine to sometimes spend an extra hour or too working for nothing but be late once in a while and that's it.Anything would be better but the pay here is more than i would get anywhere else for that line of work.How they can moan for

Overtime? There's nothing in your contract about overtime.

It says the pattern of your working hours may vary, but not the amount.

 

No contractual agreement, no extra pay, don't do it.

[RachelMD]

The 'family members working there and it's one rule for them and another for us' situation makes this complicated, as it depends on their exact relationship with the business as to how they should be treated.

 

I get the strong impression that you're very P*ssed off with working for this lot, and I'd suggest you make a concerted effort to find something else before it blows up and either you walk or you get fired.

Then you'll be in an even weaker position than you are now- 'It's easy to find a job when you've got a job'.

 

Whether you want to take them on over the pay docking is up to you.

[lfcfan]

Yeah sadly it does.I didn't say before as i thought you meant my normal hours not including over time.Overtime it says:

 

Working time regulations:

In accordance with the working time regulations 1998 you waive your right to claim that the maximum average working time under the regulations of 48 hours in each seven day period applies to you.Your waiver shall apply throughout your employment with "xxx meats" unless you give it three months written notice of withdrawl of the waiver.

 

then somewhere else in the contract it has :

 

You are not entitled to additional payment for hours worked in excess of your normal working hours.

[RachelMD]

How much OT do you do?

Does it meat (see what I did there?) National Minimum Wage?

[lfcfan]

I know the owners Sons are listed as directors and i think his brother and Nephew are down as managers and same goes for the family friend.

 

Yeah,i'm looking so hopefully i'll be out of there soon.I'll end up having a breakdown or kicking someones ass otherwise.

[lfcfan]

How much OT do you do?

Does it meat (see what I did there?) National Minimum Wage?

 

Nice lol.Not much at all really.Under 2 hours a week.Yeah they got the National Minimum Wage thing covered.They've been real crafty and seem to have themselves covered pretty well.

[RachelMD]

I know the owners Sons are listed as directors and i think his brother and Nephew are down as managers and same goes for the family friend.

 

Yeah,i'm looking so hopefully i'll be out of there soon.I'll end up having a breakdown or kicking someones ass otherwise.

I've been there. I think people end up where there's so much acrimony between them and their employer that they don't want to leave because they feel like they're backing down or conceeding defeat.

How finacially dependant are you? Wife, kids, mortgage?

If you can possibly manage it, even if it means taking a real cut in pay, get out. Go and do something else, just for a few months. I think you'll feel a real weight lifted off your shoulders.

[suziebear67]

That sounds like my place on a smaller scale, all the people who should not be working there or do nothing alot of the time, or go to the loo 14 times (we counted once how many times this person went loo to text her bf ) seem to get on great but those who have an opinion or disagree with any CI projects, seem to be hounded while other get away with murder.

 

Rant over think I need a new job but been off 4 months and shall be going back the 1st Aug on a phased return to work.

 

Its awkward getting a new job when you have a problem with the present employer.

 

 

Sue

[Sidewinder]

This post highlights some interesting points, most notably that:-

 

1. You have very little room to argue unfairness when the lateness was caused by a factor which was within your control, and you breached a fundamental term of your contract, however

2. The employer cannot by any test of reason decide to dock you a day's pay unless there is a clause which expressly allows him to do so.

3. The fact that you are forbidden from acting in a similar manner to family members working there, namely mobile phone use etc, as the employment relationship amongst those workers is likely to be different. You cannot argue being treated differently and must concentrate on what YOUR contract says.

4. You are entitled to take action for the loss of wages, but would most likely be heading for the door rapidly for any little thing they can find as an excuse to get rid of you.

5. You need to be a model employee and look for another job - this one seems to be getting beyond redemption and you will always be up against it where family are involved.

 

I strongly suggest that you get several alarm clocks to help you to be at work on time. This is really playing into their hands, and before long they will be in a position to quite lawfully dismiss you.

[Marieleeza]

Lol.It is.I dread going in every morning and not knowing if they are planning to get rid of me or not plays on my mind.So then i have trouble sleeping and it's harder for me to get up on time.Worst part is the family are payed literally more than double the rest of us yet they are the ones who sit around on their asses whilst we're busting our asses off.Oh and we dont get paid overtime.So it's fine to sometimes spend an extra hour or too working for nothing but be late once in a while and that's it.Anything would be better but the pay here is more than i would get anywhere else for that line of work.

 

I think the source of your problems is "lack of qualifications" which you mentioned in your first post.

 

Is there anything you can train for that will get you into a better line of work?

 

You need a permanent solution to your career problem as it seems that you have wasted 7 years working for a bunch of bustards (sea birds?) who treat you like sheet ( as the Spanish would say).

[lfcfan]

Well here's what happened.I went back to work on Tuesday and carried on as normal.After a lil while one of the managers comes up to me and says how he thought it was out of order and unfair that i got sent home and lost a days pay as it was my first time this year.

 

Later on in the day the owner of the shop came in.I walked by him whilst he was in the office part of the shop and he asked to have a word.He said "this is off the record,but i think it was really harsh you got sent home and don't think Paul (His Son and general manager) should have done that ".He said considering it was my first late in over 8 months and i'd had no time off sick in forever that it was harsh and they will be looking at how they deal with lateness in the future.

 

Then at the end of the day the general manager asks for a word.He says basically it was unfair and so he will only be docking me half a days pay instead of a whole day.

 

Then yesterday came and i got paid.We get payed in cash so i checked it and i had a full weeks pay.Seeing as when he gave it to me he said "you've earnt every penny",i assumed he had decided not to dock my wages at all.

 

So i go in today and straight away he came up to me and said that he forgot to take it out of my wages so would do it next week.I asked to have it in writing that this was the case.He wasn't happy about it and kept asking me why as it doesn't affect or change anything etc.

 

So i better start looking for another job i guess.

Edited July 29, 2011 by lfcfan

[RachelMD]

Oh, how generous eh? We'll only dock ya half a day!

 

Up to you, you know what your position is.

You can take them on, and legally you'll probably win. But you'll probably lose your job in the process.

[Marieleeza]

Well here's what happened.I went back to work on Tuesday and carried on as normal.After a lil while one of the managers comes up to me and says how he thought it was out of order and unfair that i got sent home and lost a days pay as it was my first time this year.

 

Later on in the day the owner of the shop came in.I walked by him whilst he was in the office part of the shop and he asked to have a word.He said "this is off the record,but i think it was really harsh you got sent home and don't think Paul (His Son and general manager) should have done that ".He said considering it was my first late in over 8 months and i'd had no time off sick in forever that it was harsh and they will be looking at how they deal with lateness in the future.

 

Then at the end of the day the general manager asks for a word.He says basically it was unfair and so he will only be docking me half a days pay instead of a whole day.

 

Then yesterday came and i got paid.We get payed in cash so i checked it and i had a full weeks pay.Seeing as when he gave it to me he said "you've earnt every penny",i assumed he had decided not to dock my wages at all.

 

So i go in today and straight away he came up to me and said that he forgot to take it out of my wages so would do it next week.I asked to have it in writing that this was the case.He wasn't happy about it and kept asking me why as it doesn't affect or change anything etc.

 

So i better start looking for another job i guess.

 

They aren't exactly singing from the same hymn sheet are they? Do you get paid for sick leave? If you do, fall ill. That will show them.

 

The inconsistency is hard to deal with and I suppose this shows you that they are very unlikely to change.