Bos preference account - been assigned

[DebtSufferer]

Hiya

 

I am starting this thread for a relative of mine who used to have threads on CAG but is now too ill to use them so thought it would be better to start new thread.

 

They had a BOS Preference Account for many years, until financial difficulty hit them a few years ago due to ill health, meant they could meet payments. Bank was not interested in helping even although they had paid mega interest to this account.

 

Then BOS unlawfully terminated before remedy date on default notice.

 

Then they received a copy of the CCA which seems to be unenforceable according to people on CAG and similar copies can repost copy on this thread.

 

Now, after many months they have received a letter from 1st Credit stating this account has been assigned to them, not sure what to do for them or where to turn.

 

Should I request a copy of the CCA for them from 1st Credit (They have received a copy from BOS many months ago).

 

This account has been in dispute with BOS for a few years now, should they have sold this account on.

 

Can anyone help please...

DS

[Abby25]

Hi there

 

Thanks for the post on my thread - I've come to help if I can.

 

Firstly can you post up a copy of the agreement BOS have sent your brother.

 

Once I have had a look I will come back with some assistance - you have read my own thread on this, so you know that I've a fair idea how to handle this.

 

Abs x

[DebtSufferer]

Hi Abs

 

Your help and guidance would be gratefully appreciated, I shall get as much of the paperwork uploaded onto here tonight.

 

This has been ongoing since June/july 2009 gone through a few DCA's with many letters back and fro letting them know that the CCA was unenforceable.

 

On some the letters they BOS state Credit Card and on some Overdraft facility dont think they can make up their minds.

 

I would say you have more than a fair idea on how to handle this lot, after reading your thread I think you have done a marvellous job with BOS and such.

 

I dont want to mention too much on here just in case they can identify my Brother, he does have a thread that was started about a year ago on here but the name he went under on CAG is too close for identification, hence the reason I have registered to try and help them.

 

If you want I could always private message you with their details, if you want, however I shall post copies up tonight, bear with me, not too computer minded but will give it a go, waiting on somebody guiding me through posting instructions.

 

DS

[DebtSufferer]

Hi Abs

 

Tried to post copies of CCA and T & C and a few other bits and pieces but CAg wouldn't let me post them as I don't have enough posts yet, seemingly you need 20 posts before yoou can put a link in.

 

Not sure how else to do this.

 

Will have to try and get 20 post on here ASAP as this is affecting my Brothers health very badly with worry, I wish he hadn't seen the letters from 1st Credit. His wife is also finding it hard to care from him just now due to the worry of this lot.

 

DS

[Abby25]

You could scan them into photobuck and write your link in your post - I will take a look at them and give you some feedback. If you do it this way others can have a look too and also give their comments (may be an idea to remove all names,address and acc nos - photocopy and tippex out if thats easier).

[DebtSufferer]

You could scan them into photobuck and write your link in your post - I will take a look at them and give you some feedback. If you do it this way others can have a look too and also give their comments (may be an idea to remove all names,address and acc nos - photocopy and tippex out if thats easier).

 

Hi Abs

 

Uploaded these picture to photbucket but not sure how to link them to here.

 

By the way reported post above not sure what its about.

DS

[Abby25]

When going to post, click "go advanced" - and then click on "manage attachments" ( picture of a paperclip) .. should work (I hope).

[cerberusalert]

Put the image files in a pdf or zip file & then upload them.

[DebtSufferer]

Hope this works Abs.

Sent copy of CCA and T & C.

[DebtSufferer]

Another try, fingers crossed

bos.zip

[Abby25]

Hi there,

 

Ok, I have had a quick look at the uploads - and although the agreement is different from mine, it is similar to others on here - and I do believe from what I have seen it has major enforceability probs.

 

That being said, could I ask for a few more details ?

 

There are a few diff T&CS - for the same accounts - tell me when did you get which ones ?

 

The app is a split app, for a loan (car I bet !) and a preference account. Is it just the pref account that you are challenging (which I think we have a good chance) or the loan which (without seeing the figs) - appears to have all the prescribed data reqd for enforceability. Although if there was payment protection included we may have a claim there too.

 

I specifically need for you to confirm when you recd the latter T&C for the pref account, and if the T&Cs for this are headed that the account is regulated under the CCA74 ?.

 

I.e in my case, my orig preg t&cs held no ref to the CCA74, nor did the app, but the revised t&cs in March 2009 had CCA74 all over them ... (which suited me just fine) !!

 

Can you also confirm if the account has been defaulted ? Can you post up a zip of the default notice ?

 

Finally, no more worrying for you and your brother, you are no longer on your own, as everyone on here will help and give you as much guidance and support as possible. Of course I will fullly support you and share my experience, and guidance on how I have handled BOS until you no longer need it, or you decide I'm talking poop (the former I hope !!)

 

Abs x

[DebtSufferer]

Hi

It does appear that BOS and 1st Credit have been extremely busy over the past week or so thats 4 people on here up till now received these notices, do they sell them in batches or individually. I have read a few other threads on here but they dont seem to have had these notices yet.

 

DS

[DebtSufferer]

Hi there,

 

Ok, I have had a quick look at the uploads - and although the agreement is different from mine, it is similar to others on here - and I do believe from what I have seen it has major enforceability probs.

 

That being said, could I ask for a few more details ?

 

There are a few diff T&CS - for the same accounts - tell me when did you get which ones ?

 

The app is a split app, for a loan (car I bet !) and a preference account. Is it just the pref account that you are challenging (which I think we have a good chance) or the loan which (without seeing the figs) - appears to have all the prescribed data reqd for enforceability. Although if there was payment protection included we may have a claim there too.

 

I specifically need for you to confirm when you recd the latter T&C for the pref account, and if the T&Cs for this are headed that the account is regulated under the CCA74 ?.

 

I.e in my case, my orig preg t&cs held no ref to the CCA74, nor did the app, but the revised t&cs in March 2009 had CCA74 all over them ... (which suited me just fine) !!

 

Can you also confirm if the account has been defaulted ? Can you post up a zip of the default notice ?

 

Finally, no more worrying for you and your brother, you are no longer on your own, as everyone on here will help and give you as much guidance and support as possible. Of course I will fullly support you and share my experience, and guidance on how I have handled BOS until you no longer need it, or you decide I'm talking poop (the former I hope !!)

 

Abs x

 

 

Hi Abs

 

Many thanks for looking at these forms...now answers to your questions.

 

This was a personal loan not for any specific item and Preference Account taking at same time in 1997. Also all paperwork was delivered by courier to their home and signed at home (Does this make a difference to the cancellation part - seem to remeber reading somewhere on this maze that there is a difference)

 

All copies posted last night where received in 2009 when they requested copy of CCA. It does state copy of current T & C so I take it that one copy is the original and the other an update. I shall post up accompanying letter.

 

bos response.zip

Account was defaulted then terminated before Default Remedy date, they did send a letter of Rescindment (have I got that right). Can post default and termination notices up if you want not sure about keeping dates in, in case they can identify them.

 

You certainly don't talk a load of poop. We cannot thank you enough for the help, support and guidance you are offering us. There is a lot of kind people on here and I only hope we can help you all in some way possible.

 

DS

[Abby25]

Hi

It does appear that BOS and 1st Credit have been extremely busy over the past week or so thats 4 people on here up till now received these notices, do they sell them in batches or individually. I have read a few other threads on here but they dont seem to have had these notices yet.

 

DS

 

 

I would hazard a guess that they have off loaded (and written off for tax purposes) those agreements that are not water tight. Although i may be completely wrong and there is absolutely nothing scientific about which have been sold, and which have not.

 

 

Time will tell I suppose.

 

 

Abs x

[Abby25]

Ok DS ... lets talk about what we have.

 

The CCA is a split agreement - one half a regulated personal loan, and one half for an apparently unregulated preference account (which BOS like to argue is a bank account).

 

Lets look at the pref account - one set of t&cs, although no mention of the CCA74, describe it as a credit card. Which is error number 1, as a credit card is a CCA regulated rolling finance agreement. Error no 2 (taking their statement that it is a credit card), is that the CCA does not contain the prescribed heading that the account is a consumer credit agreement regulated under the CCA74. That on its own, regardless of the fact that the CCA (as a regulated agreement) also has to also contain all prescribed terms, in the prescribed format in accordance with s60[61) of the CCA 74, is a breach of the Act.

 

Now, upon presenting this to them, they wil probably come back and say "oh its not a credit card, its a bank account, and a bank account does not need to adhere to the CCA74". The problem they have if they do say this, is that you have t&cs from 2009, that clearly state it is regulated agreement under the act - which means again that the CCA signed does not conform to the CCA requirements in disclosing that the agreement is regulated under the Act. In effect concealling from the debtor this fact and their rights afforded under the Act.

 

Notwithstanding this, overdrafts, which is what BOS tried to argue with me a preference account is, are regulated under the act as confirmed by Experian and other CRAs (albeit with part v exemption (if claimed by the creditor) - which I won't go in to at this point, as in the case of a pref account is irrelevant as its not a bank account anyway).

 

So, your dispute letter is the standard letter on here re "the cca does not include all terms as dentoed by the CCA74", see what they come back with this.

 

In my situation, I did not want to reveal my hand until I had let them bury themselves - indeed the letters I have from them are full of lies and blatent cover ups - which is the ammunition I wanted - as if it ever went to court, BOS and any info or docs presented - could be proven to be both deceitful and unrelliable witnesses.

 

And when I challenged BOS (with supporting evidence) on their statements made, they backed right off - admitted it was a regulated acccount, wouldn't answer why my agreement made no ref to the fact it was regulated - they simply stating in response that " they had nothing further to add". Suggesting that if I remained unhappy with their response to refer the matter to FOS.

 

In my letter I would refer to the pref account as a credit card, as per BOS own t&cs - their error in not including the prescribed heading in the CCA is a breach of :- ‘The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553)/SCHEDULE 1’ ‘Information to be Contained in Documents Embodying Regulated Consumer Credit I Agreements other than Modifying Agreements’.

 

 

 

Do this to see what they come back with, don't mention that their own initial T&Cs describe it as a credit card, as you want actually want them to come back and say its a bank account (which we can dispute) - what you doing is gathering documentary evidence from them, of their wilful lies and manipulation of facts to evade admitting their docs and claims are utter rubbish, in an attempt to prevent you from being aware that you have consumer protection offered under the CCA74.

 

Abs x

 

 

PS - I apologise for any paragraph merges or errors, I have to manually input paragraph spllitters, as there is an issue with my text bloody merging everything !! I have reported it, but I have had no response, nor has anything been done to correct it.

[DebtSufferer]

Wow Abs,

 

Your'e mine field of info on this account, you have really done your homework, I am so glad your on our side.

 

I do get the jist of this a wee bit, thats why I am so grateful for your help do not want to make things worst for my Brother.

 

Am I right in thinking they are trying to tell us that they gave us a Bank Account of some sort of overdraft facility but they want to regulate and run it like a Credit Card Account, but originally didnt give our the correct CCA then when they have realised this they have sent out new CCA. Which the description and some of the letters from BOS state its a Credit Card Account also the fact it has a Credit Limit I have never heard of a Bank Account having a Credit Limit, also when you have an overdraft you dont pay a percentage of the overdraft into that account every month. So obviously they are totally confused as to how they should be running these accounts.

 

Also we have a recent copy of their Credit Report from Experian and it states Credit Card/Store Card, I have read that you contacted Experian regarding this and they were able to confirm that it was described as a Store Card at the beginnning, is there any chance you could give me a copy of theis letter to help me draft a letter to experian(The more ammuniation the bette, however I am not too good at writting letters this is were my downfall may come in when helping my Brother, dont want to say something I shouldn't.

 

However not sure about my way around on this forum my sis in law has tried to help me but is very busy looking after my brother, is there anyway you could kindly give me a link to this letter that I should send to 1st and would I send this to Recorded Delivery.

 

If I can find it I shall get it away tomorrow first thing the quicker we try and nip this lot the better for my Brother.

 

So need to get a letter to Experian and a letter to 1st.

 

Also what about the Default Notice, is there anything we can do with them terminating the account before the default remedy date, surely this shouldn't be allowed.

 

There is so many things, questions going through my head just now, I don't know how you manage to keep itall stored.

 

DS

[Abby25]

Have you complained or written to them about this - what did they say ? How did they describe the account ? What did their last correspondence say ?

 

If I know what has transpired before now, I can make sure that the letter I give you will be relevant inc any ref to its regulatation.

 

Abs x

[Abby25]

Forgot to say ... the default notice .. lets keep that to one side for the moment and deal with it as a sep issue, we wil use that as our trump card if we need to. Indeed the DN I had was rubbish - but I haven;t raised it as that is not my main arguement why the account is unenforceable - I also don't want a replacemnt issued either - as I intend to present the duff DN as part of any defence.

 

Indeed, there are ongoing arguments (if you trawl the threads on here) regarding whether a duff DN on its own is enough to support unenforceability - its an extra bit of ammunition thats all (in my opinion).

 

Lets focus on the agreement, as thats our main route and easily proven, method of attack on this. ( I would put a smiley face there, but my acct is up the wal and apart from merging paragraphs, I also can't add a smiley face .. so here's one I made myself ;-)

 

Abs x

[DebtSufferer]

Have you complained or written to them about this - what did they say ? How did they describe the account ? What did their last correspondence say ?

 

If I know what has transpired before now, I can make sure that the letter I give you will be relevant inc any ref to its regulatation.

 

 

Hi Abs,

 

Ta very much for the hand made smiley face, its much appreciated.

 

Basically they have not had much correspondence from BOS themselves. The only correspondance they have from BOS is the original demand and the letter I posted up with the copies of the CCA, then Bank Retail Collections sent a few demand letters, the rest of the letters are from DCA's demanding the full amount, which the replied by standard letter saying return file to BOS as this account is in dispute.

 

The last letter from BOS is the one I posted in post #13 above.

 

Thats what I cant understand after reading all your thread it seems that you had a long drawn arguement with them, this could have been due to the state of mind my Bro & Sis/Law have been in.

 

Can't thank you enough for this help you are giving us.

 

As for the DN we shall be guide by your expertise.

 

DS

[Abby25]

Hi

 

I have attached a letter to send to the DCAs who try and pursue this - since my acct maintenance has gone up the wall I can't add any attachments - so I have posted it in full at the bottom. Just copy and paste and amend as necessary.

 

With regards to BOS - send them the standard CCA dispute letter - should be in template folder. We send this first to see what they come back with, i.e its a bank account and not regulated. Or what ever they chose to use a defence. From there we can send a tailored response to them.

 

Abs

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Re:− Bank of Scotland - Credit Card Agreement No - xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

I write with reference to the above, and further to your letter of (Insert Date).

 

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to you as a debtcollection agency, as it is in serious dispute with the Bank Of Scotland, and has been since (InsertDate) .

 

You will be aware however, that the passing of this account by Bank of Scotland whilst in dispute,to a debt collection agency such as (Name of DCA), is not only a clear breach of OFT collectionguidelines, but also in breach of the The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (The Act).

 

As you are aware while this matter remains in dispute, enforcement action is NOT permitted unders127 of The Act, which constitutes a complete defence at law.

 

Accordingly, I would respectfully suggest that this account be returned to the Bank of Scotland forresolution, as (Name of DCA), are prohibited from any lawfully pursuance or any enforcementactivities whilst an unresolved dispute remains in place.

 

If you however choose to ignore this notice of dispute and attempt unlawful enforcement, youractions will constitute clear evidence of harassment, and I shall have no hesitation in the initiationof legal action, with your unlawful behaviour reported to regulatory authorities, including, but notlimited to, Trading Standards, OFT, Commissioners Office, and the Financial Services Authority.

 

Furthermore, I hereby advise that should it be your ill advised future intention to attempt to arrangeany “doorstep call”, then I again direct you to OFT rules, which clearly state that you may only visitme at my home by my express invitation and appointment, and I herewith make it clear that I haveno wish to make an appointment with yourselves, or any representative of Bank of Scotland.

 

Indeed, there is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to attend myproperty without express permission, noted as the postman and individuals seeking directions re(Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.).

 

Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives toattend my property, and if you do so despite this notice, I shall pursue and you shall be liable todamages for tort of trespass, and immediate action will be taken including but not limited to, Policeattendance and your removal.

 

I trust this correspondence makes my position clear, and I duly request that the matter be referredback to your Client for resolultion.

 

 

Yours faithfully

[DebtSufferer]

Hi Abs

 

Will get these letters away tomorrow, I have sent you a private message as there is some details I dont want to publish on forum just now, hope you dont mind.

 

Will keep you updated as things progress.

 

Many thanks once again

DS. x

[Abby25]

Thanks for PM DS - here to help as much as I can ... keep me posted .... Abs

[DebtSufferer]

Hi Abs

 

Couldn't gey letters away today, will get tham posted tomorrow. Notice there is anther person on CAG received a 1st Credit letter today. Wonder how much they pay BOS for each account, is it a percentage or just individule prices, gows anybody know ?.

 

DS

[DebtSufferer]

Hi Abs and everyone else

 

Just thought I would do a an update...no sign of any response from 1st Credit, a bit too soon maybe, has anybody else out there heard anything from them.

 

DS.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Debt Sufferer,

1st Credit do seem to have recently bought a whole batch of accounts from HBOS. Ironic, as in 2009 HBOS dropped them like a hot brick because 1st Credit were in trouble with the OFT for aggressive debt collection practices , eg issuing Statutory Demands willy nlly, so have been under observation.

HBOS has obviously just forgiven them, hence the sudden spending spree on accounts. They would probably pay in the region of 10% of the debt value. Immoral.

 

Elsa x