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Understanding what 'In Dispute' means


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Hi chaps,

 

I have an ongoing issue with RBS, sorry for the vagueness that will follow but I have very little paper work for the moment...

 

Going back to around 6 years ago I had a Style Card through Kwik Fit, ultimately going through RBS. The idea of the card was that I could use it for repairs and then had 6 months interest free to pay it back.

Around a year or so after and of no fault to this particular card i entered an IVA due to my circumstances changing, the debt from this particular card was part of the IVA.

I came out of the IVA a year ago now, as once again my circumstances changed and it seemed more feasible to make my own agreements with creditors.

 

In August last year I start getting letters from Wescot regarding the debt, now whilst I acknowledge there was some debt, I had no idea what I'd infact signed and also how the amount had got to £974, so I fired off a CCA request with a £1 postal order.

 

A month passed and I got a letter saying they were passing the debt back to the OC ( I'm aware they had gone over the 12+2 days)

 

This was the end of it until March this year, Fredricksons started sending me if maybes and could letters, which were duly ignored, I hadn't got any letters of assignment, to be honest I can't even remember getting a NoD from RBS in the 1st place, but never mind for now.

Then about a month ago Bryan Carter sent me a lovely silver letter threatening me with all sots of legalities.

I email Fredricksons through their website and basically tell them to prove it, to which I had some nonsense generated by their systems.

 

So I ring RBS, I decide enough is enough let's see what's going on. I don't have an account number or anything except the last 4 digits of the card I used to have, I have this because it's shown on my CRF.

The lady I spoke to asks and is duly given my DOB, address I resided at when I had said card and the apparent outstanding amount, as soon as I mention Style Card she says 'oh we haven't had them for years' and ' I can't find anything watsoever on the system' interesting! I think...

She gives me an address to send a request to, to find/locate my details so I send a letter simply asking for my account number as I had forgot it, and that I'd rather sort it with RBS than some DCA. Never heard anything.

 

Then as if by magic I get another letter from Bryan Carter thanking me for my last letter and they look forward to my plans to settle... odd, I thought I didn't sent them a letter.

Week later I get another letter headed 'Statement of account' with a balance of £974... I put this to one side and thought nothing more.

 

Moving onto last week another lovely shiny silver letter arrives from BC telling me and I quote 'This time is different' and they will take me to court and a CCJ should be issued, whilst I'm acutely aware this is a threat-o-gram, I know BC like to issue a summons, and with a debt of almost £1000 it's likely they can/would.

 

So doing the sensible thing today I sent 1st class recorded a CCA request to Freds with a £1 postal order and another letter to BC kindly informing them I had sent a CCA request to Freds with a copy of the CCA request.

 

However, and this brings me to the title of my thread, when Wescot took too long to reply to my original CCA request they breached the terms of fulfilling the request.

My questions are; after the 14th day the account became in dispute right? I didn't send a letter of dispute does that matter? if it doesn't matter then at any point did the account in dispute ever not become in dispute?

And should I have infact sent Freds and BC an account in dispute letter dating back to last year?

 

Thanks

 

Stevo!

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Its in dispute until they send the response to the s77/s78, they may "breach" the 12 days required but there is no bar to them sending the response later.

 

They know the regs and statutes and whilst they may not conform to them as much as we like or at all, they dont really need to be told the account is in dispute if no agreement has been sent... be wary on what you class that dispute as stopping tho as even in breach they may still... sell the debt, chase you for it, report your non payment to the credit agencies, issue proceedings although not obtain judgement until they fix the breach.

 

S.

Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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I haven't had a notice of assignment and nothing else to say the debt has been sold on... It looks like it's doing the rounds, but my guess is that if wescot couldn't find it, RBS had nothing on file then Bryan Carter/Freds aren't going to have much luck... however we'll see what the next 14 days brings, they should respectively see their letters tomorrow and the clock starts ticking.

 

I'll bear in mind about it technically still being in dispute and will let them know upon a reply from either, as the_shadow said they should know the laws and statues as they are the ones throwing them around, and if they don't I'll just have to remind them :)

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Before I head off for the night,

 

I'm aware that no CCA is an absolute defence, and that by providing a reconstruction they cover the requirements of the s77/78, however if it went to court and they don't have or can't get the original what is the course of action? is a strike out applied due to lack of docs? ( i know id have to apply for that) or is it stayed until as such a time as they can produce the requested docs?

 

I'm learning as much as I can but doing it this way helps me get it right :)

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Before I head off for the night,

 

I'm aware that no CCA is an absolute defence, and that by providing a reconstruction they cover the requirements of the s77/78, however if it went to court and they don't have or can't get the original what is the course of action? is a strike out applied due to lack of docs? ( i know id have to apply for that) or is it stayed until as such a time as they can produce the requested docs?

 

I'm learning as much as I can but doing it this way helps me get it right :)

 

Creditors are getting judgement in their favour now with just a reconstructed agreement and statement showing account usage.

It is a Judge lottery, no guarantees now on unenforceable agreement

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Yes I have seen this, as for the reconstruction how accurate does it have to be? What I'm getting at is; Freds can't find my CCA so send me say a generic RBS agreement and also standard T&C's I would know that these didnt relate to my account, so is there an importance to the recon? in terms of the information contained within it?Again I'm not disputing a debt exists, but I do really need to see what it was I put my name down for and to check for any added charges... I can't do this with an incorrect CCA and/or docs.I'm not near a court stage yet, but trying to prepare myself regardless.

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Carey vs HSBC is your friend here... the reconstruction MUST be true, honest and accurate.

 

The terms must be correct, if they have been varied then the varied terms should be shown AFAIK, one thing I know MUST be on there for sure is your name and address at the time the debt was taken out.

 

S.

Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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To be honest i'm not sure that your account is "in dispute". If a creditor fails to comply with s 77/78/79 they cannot enforce. There is no dispute. If the amount is wrong or the interest rate was wrong etc then you have a dispute. Failure to supply a copy is a minor point which only becomes major if they go to trial without curing it which they allowed to if they are able. If they do you will lose. If they don't you should win.

 

As to why creditors are winning with recons Carey at 189 "There is no positive allegation that it was an IEA and indeed there is nothing at all from the Claimant, Mr Adris as to the circumstances in which the agreement was entered into. There is no plea that he did not sign it or did not recall signing it or anything of that kind. The plea of IEA depends entirely on paragraph 9."

 

Therefore if a creditor shows an account that has been used and supply's a recon then you have to make a primie facie case that it is either inaccurate or doesn't comply with CCA 74 in a way which makes it unenforceable. If you don't the statements and recon show on the balance of probabilities you have an agreement. You need more than just saying it's wrong, you need to explain realistically why.

 

M1

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Thankyou Shadow, that sorts it for me :)

 

Mystery1, I appreciate your comments... it does throw another angle on whats going on. But surely if a dca wants money, you ask for your cca and they cant obtain it then there is a dispute? I'm actually interested in your 'primie facie' comment im aware you use this if a document appears to be false, am i correct?

 

The point I was trying to make was i cant remember what i signed, it might have been an agreement or anything... it was a long time ago. I dont doubt i owe money on the account because I do and I know it, but RBS dont have anything on file according to them and since they are the OC how am i meant to see what I signed, I could probably send a SAR but if they haven't got the CCA by using a generic recon surely they could say what they like?

 

It's making more sense now though :)

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Thankyou Shadow, that sorts it for me :)

 

Mystery1, I appreciate your comments... it does throw another angle on whats going on. But surely if a dca wants money, you ask for your cca and they cant obtain it then there is a dispute? I'm actually interested in your 'primie facie' comment im aware you use this if a document appears to be false, am i correct?

 

The point I was trying to make was i cant remember what i signed, it might have been an agreement or anything... it was a long time ago. I dont doubt i owe money on the account because I do and I know it, but RBS dont have anything on file according to them and since they are the OC how am i meant to see what I signed, I could probably send a SAR but if they haven't got the CCA by using a generic recon surely they could say what they like?

 

It's making more sense now though :)

 

 

What is your dispute ?

 

They are in default. There doesn't appear to be a dispute.

 

Primie facie means on the face of it. My point is that you need to say, for example, that you did not sign this and then they have to prove it. Bear in mind that lying in court is not advisable. If you aren't sure then saying so means the Judge will use balance of probabilities to decide if you did or didn't. I wouldn't fancy your chances.

 

M1

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OK,

 

Update for this,

 

Today I have had a Fred's letter, reading as follows:

 

We tank you for you letter dated 18th july 2011 requesting documentation.

 

We are unable to provide this information, If you require documentation you can request this from our client at he address below.

 

The royal bank of scotland

bla bla bla

 

 

In the meantime please confirm how you intend discharging the above outstanding balance.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

So where do i go from here?

 

RBS have never been in touch with me regarding this, only fredricksons... so based on this should i now send them the in dispute letter?

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Freds. have an obligation to forward your request to the original creditor; not you. The request is quite clear with this anyway.... and if they cannot comply, then the account is legally "in dispute" yes.

 

If this account is pre-April 2007, then it will fall under CCA 1974, which means that you retain the protection of sec. 127 (3).... and they will need the original to re-enforce through the courts.

 

Time to raise a COMPLAINT and put them to strict proof using CPUTR 2008. Freds. and their sols. (Carter) are quite tenacious though... I am currently dealing with them myself.

 

Should you need to raise a Defence, then there are extracts of the Waksman judgement which state that an original is needed for re-enforcement.

 

:-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update on this,

 

Need some input from you guys :)

 

Ok, I never sent off an in dispute letter to freds as I have been away with work, I still intend to do this though.

 

However my mother rings me, I haven't lived at home in over 5 years telling me she has been getting calls from regal credit, I told her to tell them i dont live there, which is true as my credit file is also updated so no excuses really but... today I learn they have sent a letter regarding the above matter with RBS/Kwik Fit... now Freds and Bryan Carter are dealing with this or so I thought.

 

So I have 2 creditors chasing the same debt, what is the best thing to do in this instance? I know regal credit are sending letters to my parents address but obviously I dont want them trying for the different address trick, the fact that wescot, freds and carter all know I live kinda points to them not having a clue, any one got any pointers?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

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  • 4 weeks later...

It most likely means that Freds / BC have given up Lots of banks give their debt collectors 6 months & if they fail to get anything move the account on to the next scumbags

 

I sometimes get phone calls trying to find my son, apparently mine is the last telephone number they have for him (even though I know it's not)

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